VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Whitbread on May 19, 2013, 09:46:18 pm
-
(http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww29/mrwhitbread/Snapbucket/20B5BA62-orig_zpse41389c0.jpg) (http://s702.photobucket.com/user/mrwhitbread/media/Snapbucket/20B5BA62-orig_zpse41389c0.jpg.html)
(http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww29/mrwhitbread/Snapbucket/98A296B5-orig_zps964f1359.jpg) (http://s702.photobucket.com/user/mrwhitbread/media/Snapbucket/98A296B5-orig_zps964f1359.jpg.html)
I've built over 50 1.9 tdi's and never had as much hassle combined as I've had in 5000 miles with my 1.6. Got the used 1.6td to drop into my caddy, rebuilt whole front end of truck, head gasket blows a month later, rebuild engine with aaz gaskets and studs, hydroplane and bump a curb a month later, replace strut and top mount/bearing and get alignment, 5 days later this happens. Mechanical AHU will be going in place of this miserable lump.
-
Welcome to my club. At least the block doesnt have holes all through it and looks rebuildable.
-
That is the issue that swings me over to TDIs. I have my own pics...
-
Was it a stock set up or were you running tons of boost or other mods?
-
Sit it on a belt sander and it will be good as new
-
What happened? Did the hydroplaning oversped the engine?
-
Ouch! That's brutal. Prechamber suicide?
-
Was it a stock set up or were you running tons of boost or other mods?
Stock parts with fuel turned up, 2.5" open exhaust, aneroid pin ground a little, and timing at .040". That was it.
What happened? Did the hydroplaning oversped the engine?
Was just cruising down the road at 55 in 4th gear and started hearing some really loud ticking/tapping. Pushed the clutch in, motor stopped immediately. Tried to crank it over on the shoulder and it wouldn't turn over. Called a buddy with a strap haha.
-
Sorry for all the questions but I'm looking for reasons to keep working on the money bucket attached to my engine stand ;D
How many miles on the engine?
Was it a stock VW head or aftermarket?
Do you have an EGT sensor/gauge and if so what is the highest temp you ever saw?
Have you ever overheated the engine?
-
Gizmo, these engines can last a very long time. Make sure your pre-cups don't have any minute cracks forming (you got new ones didn't you?). Once it's running adjust the fueling so the EGTs are very safe. You'll be fine.
-
I think there is an epoxy for the precups and yeah, just yank that there piston and slap it on a belt sander. Good as new, use 600 grit and some machine oil to smooth it all out.
Seriously a new head and piston will solve your troubles will it not?
-
I think there is an epoxy for the precups and yeah, just yank that there piston and slap it on a belt sander. Good as new, use 600 grit and some machine oil to smooth it all out.
Seriously a new head and piston will solve your troubles will it not?
Nope, the #1 injector was apparently bad and fuel washing the cylinder walls as there's a major wear ridge in the top of the cylinder. You can see it in the pic. There was only 3Kmi on the motor when this happened after the rebuild. The other cylinders obviously still have cross hatch and are perfect. To save this motor it would need bored and a new head. Thats alot more money than me tossing together a mechanical ahu and dropping it in. It'll be 10x more reliable, way more power/tq, and never have to worry about hurting the motor for overworking it.
Sorry for all the questions but I'm looking for reasons to keep working on the money bucket attached to my engine stand ;D
How many miles on the engine?
Was it a stock VW head or aftermarket?
Do you have an EGT sensor/gauge and if so what is the highest temp you ever saw?
Have you ever overheated the engine?
436Kmi on engine before rebuild, had never been opened. Was a 91 ecodiesel motor. Didn't have an egt gauge as I'm familiar enough with tuning diesels and with the way I set the pump, the only time it would even smoke is under full throttle, low boost (smoking a tailgater out). So that tells me egt's were never in the danger zone.
Engine overheated once due to a coolant leak. Hence why I went through and rebuilt the whole motor at that time. Precups were still tight and only a hairline crack in a few of them around the hole. Every 6.9/7.3 IDI motor I've had apart had those so I wasn't worried. Ironically, the #1 is the one that didn't have any cracks.
-
3K on a rebuild? Oeeeveey. That my friend just plan sucks.
-
3K on a rebuild? Oeeeveey. That my friend just plan sucks.
Yup, which is why I've had it with IDI's. I don't even like the one in my Arctic Cat, but it's been trouble free on 15psi of boost. DI's just have so much more torque.
Only in the last 200 miles did the 1.6 start acting funny, sounded like a lazy cylinder on a cold start. I assumed injectors and I was literally going to order some up as soon as I got home on friday. Needless to say, I never made it home under my own power. Glad I didn't piss away more money on that one >:(.
-
Bad injector can kill any diesel. I know it blows and I feel for you, but there is nothing particularly wrong with IDI's.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
-
Very sorry to hear of your mishap.
Come to think if it, mine had a bad injector before it toasted the rings into the piston on #4. My cups never fell out but they were all cracked a bit and #3 was real loose.
Thanks for the boost libby - I'm still at it. As an overview of my investment. . .
Brand new injectors from Giles
Giles built pump
EGT sensor (with an alarm) installed in the manifold
External oil cooler and dual remote filters
No more WVO - just nice clean diesel
custom WAIC
Also additional quick acting sensing of
oil temp
Water temp
Intake air temp (all have settable alarms as well)
Nearly every weekend over the last ten months and daily reading here.
-
Yeah bad injector coupled with cracked precups is a bad day. Mine was just plain and simple too hot too fast. The pump would throw the fuel to it and I think the cups grew faster than the head and stayed bigger longer than the head liked. Eventually the head didn't come back down but my precup did.
-
Try putting an equally old and inefficient turbo on a TDI and drown it with diesel the same way you did here and see if the TDI survives ;)
-
If a bad injector can ruin the engine so easily, what's the best insurance against having one?
When mine went "bad" it started as a clicking noise which was tough to hear over the rest of the clacking engine. The only reason I knew it was an injector was that it only did it under load - when coasting it stopped (I learned that here).
It started soon after I flipped over to WVO for a while as I was almost out of fuel in the middle of nowhere.
-
Try putting an equally old and inefficient turbo on a TDI and drown it with diesel the same way you did here and see if the TDI survives ;)
haha!!! quite true. now that i have diesel mekken in my news feed on facebook i've seen him post pictures of some di engines that had a bad injector which pissed a hole through the piston.
-
A bad injector that holes a piston causes only destroys the piston. A piece of precup falling in destroys the piston, head, usually bends the rod and sometimes destroys the block or at least causes damage that requires rebore. On an AAZ the difference is $75 vs. $900-2000.
-
If a bad injector can ruin the engine so easily, what's the best insurance against having one?
Father used to say, sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you...
I bought a pop tester so if I have one crap out I can't blame anyone but me, and whoever made the nozzle.
I'm developing some thoughts on that subject as I play with injectors and nozzles too speaking of which..
-
valid point ;)
-
Try putting an equally old and inefficient turbo on a TDI and drown it with diesel the same way you did here and see if the TDI survives ;)
I was running stock boost and just enough fuel for a light haze at full throttle. I wouldn't call that drowning it in fuel. My ALH with a 12mm pump and 5x.013's nozzles is drowning in fuel; but 65 psi cleans it up nicely ;).
A bad injector that holes a piston causes only destroys the piston. A piece of precup falling in destroys the piston, head, usually bends the rod and sometimes destroys the block or at least causes damage that requires rebore. On an AAZ the difference is $75 vs. $900-2000.
Exactly. And realistically, the only time I've ever seen it happen is when you blow a nozzle tip off. Which I've yet to see happen on a TDI; only on cummins/duramax motors with dual cp3's running 26+kpsi rail pressure with 5x.020+ nozzles.
I'll be sure to post up pics of the AHU swap :).
-
If a bad injector can ruin the engine so easily, what's the best insurance against having one?
Father used to say, sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you...
I bought a pop tester so if I have one crap out I can't blame anyone but me, and whoever made the nozzle.
I'm developing some thoughts on that subject as I play with injectors and nozzles too speaking of which..
I'd build a bear trap to at least improve the odds;D
Really, couldn't you attach a sensor to each hard-line and monitor something? I spoze a leaky one wouldn't put out much of a signal though and I believe that's what really does the most damage.
-
You could probably take a reading off the glow plugs. ;)
-
You could probably take a reading off the glow plugs. ;)
Interesting thought.
They are basically resistors aren't they?
-
Service em when the t belt is changed and other than bad luck all is usually well. I don't remember if VW gave a service interval on injectors. I bet Mercedes did.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
-
Yea man i hear ya on the tdis. They have so much grunty torque over the idi's.
i literally took my 12mm pump off my idi and put it on my tdi and would rip your head off.
You can only jam so much fuel into that little prechamber whistle before it wants to come out and say hello to your piston. I like the Idis cause they rattle so much at a stop light it makes everyone look. Or the drive thru: sir please turn your truck off.
Yea the Idis are ok and for a mild tweak but IMO for serious power go to a tdi-m you will stop breaking parts.except 3 or 5 transmissions.start stocking them like cordwood :)
-
Service em when the t belt is changed and other than bad luck all is usually well. I don't remember if VW gave a service interval on injectors. I bet Mercedes did.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
I'm sure they did I think it's 100k miles tho. But I agree they should at least be tested during a timing belt change.
Andrew. Glow plugs are definitely a good indicator haha. When my old rabbit used to run away it would eat the whole tip off of each glow plug
-
IIRC I read somewhere injectors were 60,000 mile service interval.
-
Service em when the t belt is changed and other than bad luck all is usually well. I don't remember if VW gave a service interval on injectors. I bet Mercedes did.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
I'm sure they did I think it's 100k miles tho. But I agree they should at least be tested during a timing belt change.
Andrew. Glow plugs are definitely a good indicator haha. When my old rabbit used to run away it would eat the whole tip off of each glow plug
Course a Merc isn't a converted gasser..
;D
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
-
IIRC I read somewhere injectors were 60,000 mile service interval.
no you're wrong im right.
just kidding, there is definitely a number in the bentley or something
-
If the stated miles for service are on this forum you can be assured it is the Gospel truth. No lie.
-
10-4 on the last post.
Lets face it, the "newest " idi engine is what from the early 90s for most of us?
Thats some time. Time for it to sit, be under maintained, be hacked on by some fool.
So theres alot of tired engines out there that like to runaway, or leak oil funny, or some other quirk.
Ya gotta be a little careful resurrecting somethin thats been sitting a while. Expect leaks and breakage. Listen for any wierd noise and attend to it now. Not at the next convienent time.
And ya gotta ask yourself why or the reason it was sitting. It was proba ly more than one thing goin on...
Thats a sucky thing that happened but i think you will dig a mech. Tdi
Even a mild one pulls strong.
-
10-4 on the last post.
Lets face it, the "newest " idi engine is what from the early 90s for most of us?
Mine has about 140K on it and is from 03 or so near as I can remember. :)
-
I went through my Bentley (Stock number VG99) and found no service/replacement intervals (so your both wrong ;D).
What it does say is. . .
"The signs of injector trouble usually appears as misfiring and knocking noises from one or more of the injectors or cylinders, engine overheating, loss of power, smokey black exhaust, increased fuel consumption, engine misfire, or excessive blue smoke during start up."
Most of these issues I had before my melt-down and I didn't take the warning signs seriously. I will carry spare (tested) injectors in the future and never just wait till "it's convenient" to address the issue.
-
I went through my Bentley (Stock number VG99) and found no service/replacement intervals (so your both wrong ;D).
What it does say is. . .
"The signs of injector trouble usually appears as misfiring and knocking noises from one or more of the injectors or cylinders, engine overheating, loss of power, smokey black exhaust, increased fuel consumption, engine misfire, or excessive blue smoke during start up."
Most of these issues I had before my melt-down and I didn't take the warning signs seriously. I will carry spare (tested) injectors in the future and never just wait till "it's convenient" to address the issue.
Funny/sad part is all those symptoms are what most folks that even remember pre-TDI VW diesels, in the US anyway, think are normal modes of operation.
Just goes to show..
-
Yea man a crappy spray pattern will cause a screwed piston eventually. They erode over time. Its like changing shocks in your car, you don't realize how bad they were till you have the new ones in.
-
I was lucky with my bad injector I ran my old 1.6td hard 25-30psi and lots of smoke no intercollegiate and not egt gauge. The head cracked from swirl chamber to a valve. I was lucky that nothing fell in and ruined the bore/piston. But it was obvious the injector was the problem I'll post pics tomorrow
-
It looks worse in person.
Save the injector. I wanna pop test it and see the spray pattern.
Whats the best source for nozzles these days? I'm just gonna go ahead and replace all mine, and pop/spray test'm.
-
While I'm sure injectors can be a contributing factor, I had a precup fail with perfect spraying freshly rebuilt injectors and very moderate boost and fuel levels. IDIs are fine engines, but the AHU and ALH are progressively better engines. The elimination of the precups, the added efficiency and increased low end torque are all nice changes. I also really admire all the changes they made with the ALH like the coolant bypass circuit integral to the block, no intermediate shaft, oil pump chain driven off the crank, stronger block, etc...
-
While I'm sure injectors can be a contributing factor, I had a precup fail with perfect spraying freshly rebuilt injectors and very moderate boost and fuel levels. IDIs are fine engines, but the AHU and ALH are progressively better engines. The elimination of the precups, the added efficiency and increased low end torque are all nice changes. I also really admire all the changes they made with the ALH like the coolant bypass circuit integral to the block, no intermediate shaft, oil pump chain driven off the crank, stronger block, etc...
since working on my gf's 1.8t i also like the later internal waterpump blocks.
here are my pistons after cleaning, the one on the left was cyl 3 that had the bad injector and cracked head, see how much wider and darker the spray pattern on the piston is??? its much more obvious in person
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/DSCI0014.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/DSCI0010.jpg)
-
Cylinder washdown doesn't make sense.
In a gasser, yes. It happens. You're spraying solvent into the cylinder. Diesel isn't a solvent, it's an oil itself. Not saying it has the lubricity of motor oil, but I'm thinking it's not the cause. I wanna say a ring is flipped, and the cylinder wear itself wasn't helping (piston-wall was what, .004?) Could also be a non-working squirter down below (from what I heard.)
I'm going to grab the injector nexttime I'm up and test it when I do my set.
-
Wouldn't a bad injector cause problems by erosion? Instead of finely atomized fuel combusting, a peeing injector could knock a glow plug tip off and wreck the cyl, or hammer the pre chamber with high pressure fuel.
-
For sure,
I believe it was my #3 GP that had the head missing entirely and bits of the rest were also gone. The tops of my pistons looked like gravel had spent some time there.
This all happened rather quickly on a return camping trip - probably the last 20 miles.
-
Wouldn't a bad injector cause problems by erosion? Instead of finely atomized fuel combusting, a peeing injector could knock a glow plug tip off and wreck the cyl, or hammer the pre chamber with high pressure fuel.
It's got more then a messed up piston/head. The cylinder wall has all kinds of wear. Not consistent with chunks floating around.
I'm testing that injector to confirm the rest, as no-one has yet. it's all just blamed on a leaky injector. I need actual proof.
sidenote: where's everyone getting nozzles these days? all I see are prothe's and partsplace. Prothes will be cheaply made, and parts place is double what I paid for my last set. Brutal.
-
I now have eight.
4 originals and 4 brand new ones from Giles - you may want to try him for new ones as well.
It's been said in this post that diesel is a lubricant so having it leak wouldn't be a huge problem. I disagree if it goes on for a while. Calling diesel a lubricant is true when compared to gas, but compared to 15-50 wt oil, it's hardly a match - especially over 500 miles.
-
Wouldn't a bad injector cause problems by erosion? Instead of finely atomized fuel combusting, a peeing injector could knock a glow plug tip off and wreck the cyl, or hammer the pre chamber with high pressure fuel.
It's got more then a messed up piston/head. The cylinder wall has all kinds of wear. Not consistent with chunks floating around.
I'm testing that injector to confirm the rest, as no-one has yet. it's all just blamed on a leaky injector. I need actual proof.
High pressure water jet is used to cut stone . High pressure jet from a peeing injector is not a good thing.
-
Water jet cutting for metals includes abrasives.
AIUI, a pissing injector can create a couple of problems (at least): washing the cylinder & rings which adds wear; and detonation that hammers stuff apart because the "diffusion flame" doesn't form as the spray emits from the nozzle. Another paper I read indicated that late combustion burns the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls.
-
What are the chances of just one injector acting up? The set came from the same place, and all have the same wear.
I think it's more than an injector.
-
After dicking around with a bunch of injectors, nozzles, and pop tester the last week or two, I'm more paranoid than ever
about the quality of rebuild jobs. Unless they are mass produced maybe the $45 an injector I see often listed by shops is not a lot of money for the
time involved in cleaning and pop pressure adjustment/matching/testing, and one usually gets what they pay for.
OP got his from Giles I think and I have no reason to think he does anything but
good work, and anything mechanical can fail.
I'm not in love with the spray pattern on any of the 8 new or 4 lowish mileage used Indian made Bosch nozzles
I've tested, which is what Bosch reman injectors use and have been using. No idea what Giles uses.
Anything can fail though even if it was right when they were built. And I have strong doubts that
the human eye can see anything beyond gross errors in spray pattern when testing injectors by hand.
I have two NOS German made OM617 Mercedes nozzles left still in the wax I might break out
and see how they spray just for comparison.
-
Water jet cutting for metals includes abrasives.
AIUI, a pissing injector can create a couple of problems (at least): washing the cylinder & rings which adds wear; and detonation that hammers stuff apart because the "diffusion flame" doesn't form as the spray emits from the nozzle. Another paper I read indicated that late combustion burns the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls.
I had one slice all they way into the water jacket of a fresh head in about a half hour of run time.
-
Impressive... :o
But considering VW's attitude* regarding spray, maybe only gross errors are significant.
*Somebody had a VW TSB saying that minor variations were not cause for repair/replacement.
-
Impressive... :o
But considering VW's attitude* regarding spray, maybe only gross errors are significant.
*Somebody had a VW TSB saying that minor variations were not cause for repair/replacement.
Bosch India sure took that to heart if so.
-
Impressive... :o
But considering VW's attitude* regarding spray, maybe only gross errors are significant.
*Somebody had a VW TSB saying that minor variations were not cause for repair/replacement.
Speaking of which, see last part of the second paragraph..
(http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/attachments/diesel-discussion/96252d1317319269-what-type-not-make-nozzles-have-you-tried-nozzle-spray-pattern.jpg)
Course the MB prechamber design is pretty different than the VW one, but the injector and nozzle design is still
mostly the same. The MB prechamber is quite a bit further down from the injector and is a neat design if you've never seen one. (they also don't fall into the cylinder) :)
If anything I'd think spray pattern would be less critical for the VW design but what the hell do I know.
-
Mercedes idi pre chamber design is very different than VW's. Mercedes pre chamber has a red hot ball inside where the injected fuel stream strikes which further atomizes the fuel. Mercedes pre chamber is a "closed" capsule with 5 small holes (tiny compared to a glow plug tip) to let the flame out to the cylinder. A broken glow plug tip will stay in the pre chamber, unlike the VW, which will drop it smartly into the cylinder/ wreck your engine.
-
Mercedes idi pre chamber design is very different than VW's. Mercedes pre chamber has a red hot ball inside where the injected fuel stream strikes which further atomizes the fuel. Mercedes pre chamber is a "closed" capsule with 5 small holes (tiny compared to a glow plug tip) to let the flame out to the cylinder. A broken glow plug tip will stay in the pre chamber, unlike the VW, which will drop it smartly into the cylinder/ wreck your engine.
Yep. They generally last the life of the motor, call it half mil or so. Some guys drill the pre-chamber holes larger I've heard.
And that ball has been known to break off, but it stays put at least. Good design all in all.
I think the bit about tolerable spray pattern is interesting, and I suspect it came from Bosch rather than MB.
The VW has what, two inches from nozzle tip installed to the bottom of the pre-chamber? I would imagine that
spray pattern beyond two inches, for a VW, is irrelevant beyond it being an emphasized example of what's happening
within a few inches of the nozzle. Maybe. The MB guys don't want a mist, they want a coherent strong shot
down to that red hot ball you mentioned, at first thought it seems this might not be what one would want for the VW
swirl pre-chamber setup. Mostly thinking out loud here...
-
Mercedes idi pre chamber design is very different than VW's. Mercedes pre chamber has a red hot ball inside where the injected fuel stream strikes which further atomizes the fuel. Mercedes pre chamber is a "closed" capsule with 5 small holes (tiny compared to a glow plug tip) to let the flame out to the cylinder. A broken glow plug tip will stay in the pre chamber, unlike the VW, which will drop it smartly into the cylinder/ wreck your engine.
Yep. They generally last the life of the motor, call it half mil or so. Some guys drill the pre-chamber holes larger I've heard.
And that ball has been known to break off, but it stays put at least. Good design all in all.
I think the bit about tolerable spray pattern is interesting, and I suspect it came from Bosch rather than MB.
The VW has what, two inches from nozzle tip installed to the bottom of the pre-chamber? I would imagine that
spray pattern beyond two inches, for a VW, is irrelevant beyond it being an emphasized example of what's happening
within a few inches of the nozzle. Maybe. The MB guys don't want a mist, they want a coherent strong shot
down to that red hot ball you mentioned, at first thought it seems this might not be what one would want for the VW
swirl pre-chamber setup. Mostly thinking out loud here...
Interesting bit of info. I have four slightly cracked cups from the old head. Maybe I'll work out a way to spray the nozzle into a cup located similar to install. This would give a better visual for sure.
-
Quantum-Man scored a TSB binder and shared this on the other board... nobody there seemed to buy into the idea, either.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--1jPwiPVAkI/UaARCqPF0FI/AAAAAAAABNU/FyexxMZMvsA/s800/vaginjectorbulletin2bj0.jpg)
-
That's mighty interesting.
Wonder if Bosch India are just doing what they were told is OK?
I think the Merc one I posted Is from long ago, I don't have my printed 617 book anymore.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
-
Quantum-Man scored a TSB binder and shared this on the other board... nobody there seemed to buy into the idea, either.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--1jPwiPVAkI/UaARCqPF0FI/AAAAAAAABNU/FyexxMZMvsA/s800/vaginjectorbulletin2bj0.jpg)
Saved. . .
Great info!
So, just make sure they pop when they're supposed to and don't leak. That takes a lot of didling around out of it.
-
Cylinder washdown can happen in diesels. Let it sit and idle all day. Now its wet stacked and raw fuel is getting past the rings and whatnot. Granted the wear may not be as bad as gasoline but its still happenin.
Ya see it all the time when someone leaves a diesel idling for an extended period. Then when you finally run it up itll smoke like a bear till it gets warm again and burns the raw crap out.