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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: rumbling_caddy on May 13, 2013, 09:47:16 pm
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I'm ready to sell off my beater caddy with a 1.5D. Been driving it more the last week to look for leaks, etc
Nothing leaks but then I notice a little oil getting into the coolant :( Sucks but I have to fix the problem.
The head come off today. Cleaning and reassembly tomorrow. The old HG had 3 notch and the parts store sold me an Elring 3 notch to match. Anyways the Elring instruction sheet says to install it dry. From search, copper spray is recommend with metal AAZ HG. For traditional HG like this is it a good idea? I see mixed recommendations. Should I worrry about the copper spray adding a little thickness
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As you've probably found, ask 10 people get 10 different answers. IMO the manufacturer knows best. I also think that "dry" means DRY (super clean). Personally I'm getting ready to do the same and I'm going to hit both surfaces with brake cleaner. I am using ARP studs torqued to 125 ft/lbs and the head is new. However, If I were using the old head I might spray or carefully apply something
In other words, if I had doubt's on the surfaces, I might try copper spray or some of the other suggestions you'll find but that's your call.
No gasket sealer will add thickness - only fill voids
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Despite the manufacturer saying to install the head gasket dry, factory engines come with a light coating of hylomar on the head gasket surfaces. At this point, that is what I use (hylomar spray). It eliminates the pesky minor oil leak that is common between 3+4.
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Despite the manufacturer saying to install the head gasket dry, factory engines come with a light coating of hylomar on the head gasket surfaces. At this point, that is what I use (hylomar spray). It eliminates the pesky minor oil leak that is common between 3+4.
pro tip
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Thanks guys. Sounds right to me. I believe in this is the 1st time the head came off and I see some kind off caked on sealant residue. I want to do what I can to make the new gasket seal properly.
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Despite the manufacturer saying to install the head gasket dry, factory engines come with a light coating of hylomar on the head gasket surfaces. At this point, that is what I use (hylomar spray). It eliminates the pesky minor oil leak that is common between 3+4.
pro tip
Very well said.
The AAZ HG is MLS btw, Multi Layer Steel. The early one is more traditional construction.
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I've always put head gaskets on dry but with the surfaces very clean and smooth (I use 3M Roloc discs to clean them). This is what the Bentley says in addition to the box most gaskets come in, I don't think they would try to mislead people. But I do but a small bead of sealant around the oil feed hole on the VW gasket, since that seems to be the source of many problems.
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Here's a quote from a diesel truck site. . .
IIRC, Victor-Reinz is the supplier for Napa gaskets. Meaning Victor-Reinz gasket in a Napa box.
As far as MLS (multi layered steel) head gaskets, they came to fruition due to all of the newer motors featuring cast iron blocks and aluminum cylinder heads. The different metals expanding and contracting at different rates requires that the two mating surfaces to actually slide across one another as the engine heats up or cools down. The multiple layers of steel combined with a really smooth (>30 RMA in machinist terminology) head surface make this possible.
On motors with cast iron heads/blocks, a rougher surface actually helps the gaskets seal better. In the past, I've used copper coat successfully, but only on a few occassions.
The step I've seen alot of people miss in the installation of head gaskets is not cleaning the mating surfaces really well with brake cleaner and a rag. The oil will soak into the head gasket and prevent it from sealing to it's full ability.
We had a machine that had 20 key-less bushings inside the timing belt pulleys in order to time it properly. The concept was good but they wouldn't hold against the torque if it jammed. I asked the bushing engineers if red loctite would improve the holding ability and he said, no - they had tested it and found it actually reduced it.
The way he explained it was at those torque values, metal on metal was as good as it gets. I have to agree.
His point was that you should never put something "soft" between two hard surfaces if you don't want them to move.
If you (may) have a leak because you didn't clean the head or block, or one or both are in bad shape, that's a different story.
With or without sealer - you definitely want to remove any traces of oil.
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Andrew, is there only one kind of Hylomar spray? Or which one do you recommend? Do you recommend using this on the older 1.6 gaskets, or just the metal ones? I have a lots of those pesky 3+4 leaks on several 1.6s and always install dry with ARP studs.
Thanks, Will.
Despite the manufacturer saying to install the head gasket dry, factory engines come with a light coating of hylomar on the head gasket surfaces. At this point, that is what I use (hylomar spray). It eliminates the pesky minor oil leak that is common between 3+4.
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As far as MLS (multi layered steel) head gaskets, they came to fruition due to all of the newer motors featuring cast iron blocks and aluminum cylinder heads. The different metals expanding and contracting at different rates requires that the two mating surfaces to actually slide across one another as the engine heats up or cools down. The multiple layers of steel combined with a really smooth (>30 RMA in machinist terminology) head surface make this possible.
On motors with cast iron heads/blocks, a rougher surface actually helps the gaskets seal better. In the past, I've used copper coat successfully, but only on a few occassions.
I wonder why my Cummins gasket is MLS?
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Andrew, is there only one kind of Hylomar spray? Or which one do you recommend? Do you recommend using this on the older 1.6 gaskets, or just the metal ones? I have a lots of those pesky 3+4 leaks on several 1.6s and always install dry with ARP studs.
Thanks, Will.
Despite the manufacturer saying to install the head gasket dry, factory engines come with a light coating of hylomar on the head gasket surfaces. At this point, that is what I use (hylomar spray). It eliminates the pesky minor oil leak that is common between 3+4.
I am only aware of one kind of Hylomar spray. I've gotten it here:
http://www.buyracingparts.com/hylomar-blue-6oz-aerosol-spray.html
It's a bit pricey for a small can, but has enough for 2-3 head gaskets. I do a light coat on block surface, both sides of head gasket and the head.
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Despite the manufacturer saying to install the head gasket dry, factory engines come with a light coating of hylomar on the head gasket surfaces. At this point, that is what I use (hylomar spray). It eliminates the pesky minor oil leak that is common between 3+4.
Then. . .
Andrew, is there only one kind of Hylomar spray? Or which one do you recommend? Do you recommend using this on the older 1.6 gaskets, or just the metal ones? I have a lots of those pesky 3+4 leaks on several 1.6s and always install dry with ARP studs.
Thanks, Will.
Here's an interesting link.
http://www.ssch.com.au/trade-news/warning-on-the-use-of-hylomar/ (http://www.ssch.com.au/trade-news/warning-on-the-use-of-hylomar/)
I realize that if you look long enough on the internet, you find a site proving that 1 + 1 = 3.
That said, I am standing by running a dry gasket and making damn sure both surfaces are clean, flat and without surface issues.
Jim
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I'm guessing that they're advising against sealant for fear that people will use too much... it's kind of like that thermal paste you put on computer CPUs, too much is worse than not enough.
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I have not arrived at my current process without experience. I used to promote installing dry with meticulous prep, but I have had a few issues. At this point in time I have had several dry fiber gaskets seal without issue. I have had several dry MLS gaskets seal without issue. I have had a couple fiber gaskets leak with low miles from the high pressure area between 3+4 despite both the block and head being true, flat and totally clean and brakeclean dry. I have had one dry MLS gasket weep between 3+4 despite being true, clean and dry. I have used Hylomar so far on three and have had no issues with sealing. This is not a large cross section but not tiny either. My conclusion is that despite METICULOUS prep of both block and head surfaces and having them totally flat, clean and dry they will sometimes weep with low miles. So far, the addition of hylomar has stopped that issue for me. Dry has about a 20% premature failure rate for me, albeit a very minor failure mode of weeping on on the front of the block and making a mess. Despite the current small cross section of head gaskets on which I have used hylomar, so far it has a 100% success rate. If I have any issues with hylomar, I will analyze and reassess what process I use. I would reiterate that in disassembling VW engines, it is clear that they do use a sealer on the head gasket and it gives me the impression that it is hylomar or darn similar.
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I would reiterate that in disassembling VW engines, it is clear that they do use a sealer on the head gasket and it gives me the impression that it is hylomar or darn similar.
I removed the head on a VW factory remanufactured diesel engine with 0 miles and I saw the same thing. New block, reconditioned head. It was a thin sticky film, just like hylomar, except that it was purple instead of blue.
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My euro shop guys do 100+ a year, frequently one or both surfaces are imperfect. They always use hol or copper. Comebacks blow.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
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I have not arrived at my current process without experience. I used to promote installing dry with meticulous prep, but I have had a few issues. At this point in time I have had several dry fiber gaskets seal without issue. I have had several dry MLS gaskets seal without issue. I have had a couple fiber gaskets leak with low miles from the high pressure area between 3+4 despite both the block and head being true, flat and totally clean and brakeclean dry. I have had one dry MLS gasket weep between 3+4 despite being true, clean and dry. I have used Hylomar so far on three and have had no issues with sealing. This is not a large cross section but not tiny either. My conclusion is that despite METICULOUS prep of both block and head surfaces and having them totally flat, clean and dry they will sometimes weep with low miles. So far, the addition of hylomar has stopped that issue for me. Dry has about a 20% premature failure rate for me, albeit a very minor failure mode of weeping on on the front of the block and making a mess. Despite the current small cross section of head gaskets on which I have used hylomar, so far it has a 100% success rate. If I have any issues with hylomar, I will analyze and reassess what process I use. I would reiterate that in disassembling VW engines, it is clear that they do use a sealer on the head gasket and it gives me the impression that it is hylomar or darn similar.
Thanks libby. It's difficult to get to know people on the forums, but over time you eventually do gain some insight. The primary reason I visit is information and yours is always top notch.
Very much appreciated Sir.
BTW, excellent sticky material ;D
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I do hylomar as well. It works for more than HG.
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I do hylomar as well. It works for more than HG.
Thanks theman.
I did a bunch of reading on Hylomar's website and the product libby recommended is good to 215 PSI in shear 1.5 N/mm˛
I think the initial assumption (at least mine) is that the sealer aids in sealing the head which is there primarily to seal extreme compression. The head also seals in oil and water as well (duh!) - all the time, hot or cold. My guess is that the hylomar keeps the oil and water from seeping during temperature variations. What it can't do is seal against high compression and while it should be obvious to most of us, the sealer is not intended to repair a bad surface. As both you and libby (and many others here) have considerable experience with the nuance's of these engines. . .
It eliminates the pesky minor oil leak that is common between 3+4.
No engineering is perfect and these engines are all well used (some not so well ;D). Apparently there is a weakness that can cause leaks even if the surfaces are very good.
I just ordered a can (38 bucks including shipping) as "pesky leaks" are something I'd like to avoid.
BTW - thanks also to rumbling_caddy for the original post - excellent info obtained!
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Since we're on the subject, the cheapest place I've found for Hylomar is Amazon.com