VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: wolf_walker on May 12, 2013, 09:19:58 pm
-
So I've always just bought injectors reman'd and had good luck.
They used to be cheap, progressively not so anymore, and I got a good deal
so I bought a pop tester.
Been mucking around with it, I have a pile of play-injectors and four new nozzles too.
The ole gallon cans of carb cleaner make damn fine injector cleaners if you have a few days to let them sit,
crack em open, loosen the nozzle in the housing (careful tap) and they come out such that the carbon wipes off
with a rag. Neato.
Now, testing these things. This strikes me as kind of an "art" and desipite a lot of reading I'm second guessing myself
left and right.
I tried one out of my old TD from many years ago, obvious crap, bad pattern, leaked @1500psi, text book bad.
Great.
I took one of my cleaned bodies, lapped the mating surfaces with 1000 grit till smooth and popped in a new nozzle.
After a couple settling in pops, it sprays well. I think. It might be my eyes, and the little cloud of diesel vapor that immediately
obscures one's view after the first spray, but it looks like it's ever so slightly biased to one side of the stream.
Or it might not. It's pretty damn hard to tell.
It's also popping a hair high, 1900 depending on how one strokes it.
That isn't unusual after lapping, higher pop, I read.
Which is another thing. It seems to me that the method of articulating the tester handle can effect the
pop pressure a bit. I can make this injector "pee" if I try to. Should I be able to?
Is it proper to use short "pops" and kinda try and see where the needle does not climb at
or run through a steady long-pop and see where it holds throughout the duration?
There is variance here I'm not loving.
And the return ports, should they leak? I was holding pressure, with occasional handle movement, to keep it around 1500psi
looking for body leaks, and it started weeping out the bypass ports eventually.
Should it? Kinda hard to throughly check for body half leaks when it's running down from them, I capped them but that wasn't sufficient,
need to cap one and run a drain line on the other I suspect.
Am I being too picky here?
(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/1002/img20130507194810.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/203/img20130507194810.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
-
I believe it is normal for the return ports to weep under pressure... they are lubed and cooled by the fuel, so there is a way for fuel to get around the pintle and up to the port.
In operation, the pintle only sees high pressure for something like 3ms per pump stroke, so not a lot of fuel comes through.
-
Makes sense. I think for my OCD purposes I'll cap one and run a hose off the other.
So I can hold pressure on it for a long time and dare it to leak...
-
If you have to tap on the nozzle to get it out something is wrong. Most likely carboned up because some JO did not replace the heat shield.
If the injector pees it is BAD.
If you are leaking enough fuel out the return port on a leak test to run down the side of the injector, you have a problem.
You need a slow steady pull to check popping pressure. You want to see where it "breaks", not how high you can make the gauge jump. It should have a distinct "pop" when the flow starts. If you don't get that, even if you get a good spray pattern, the nozzle is not right.
-
The nozzle tapping to remove was on core injectors, totally carboned up. I bought a dozen or so as cores to muck around with.
I'm still on my first one with a new nozzle, I'll put together another and see how it behaves
in comparison with the pee'ing. It would only do it if I crept up on the break pressure slowly,
I had to make it do that, it'd never happen in use but my question was should it happen at
all, even when trying to induce it?
The bypass leaking took awhile, the book says 10 seconds or so @1500psi for a body leak check,
I was at more like 45 seconds manually maintaining 1500psi before the bypass wept over and ran down.
So... Normal? It wouldn't leak at all in a quick 10 sec check.
I'll fiddle with it some more this evening and work on my lever pulling technique..
-
I'm still on my first one with a new nozzle, I'll put together another and see how it behaves
in comparison with the pee'ing. It would only do it if I crept up on the break pressure slowly,
I had to make it do that, it'd never happen in use but my question was should it happen at
all, even when trying to induce it?
Certain ones will pee, it's normal.
-
That makes sense, excellent.
-
Pulled the not very old injectors from my truck, one popped at 1400, rest at 1700 or so. Wish I'd bought one of these sooner.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
-
Spray pattern is some sort of trap for the OCD....
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
-
Well then, did you find the pop tester, or did the pop tester find you ;D
-
Well then, did you find the pop tester, or did the pop tester find you ;D
I thought I heard it chuckle at me earlier..
-
Well one out of the four new Indian Bosch nozzles doesn't spray well so far. I don't think I'm surprised. Debating weather to order more or try the Chezch made Meyle brand.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
-
From the dept of post-apocalyptic fixes: I was able to make that bad spraying new nozzle functional by lapping it internally with, since it was the first thing
in arms reach, auto paint polishing compound. It actually has as good or better pattern than any of the other three now, but the whole spray is canted about 2 degrees
off to one side. I can just barely perceive it but it's there. I'd use it if I had to. I'm tempted to try such on the others and see how they react.
I also have decided that the Mk1 eyeball is only marginally capable of discerning small differences in spray pattern.
I'm comfortable with my pumping technique and have a good feel for the procedure now, but it is damn hard to see
anything that isn't a glaring fault with spray pattern. This leads me to believe that there is some leeway in such,
since I'm pretty sure I've spent a hell of a lot more time lapping parts and fine tuning break point and doing back to back
comparisons of spray patterns than 98% of shops do for the money they charge. It's no damn wonder the assembly line built Bosch
remans are so-so at best. It also occurred to me, as I was watching a spray pattern across it's length of five or six inches, that it never sprays
that far in-motor (duh). So trying to observe just the first inch or two makes it even more difficult. I suppose the pattern further down from the nozzle
is indicative of what's happening up close. Maybe. I'm also faced with the fact that I'll not be happy till I run a set for a bit, then pull them and pop em
again to make sure they wore in correctly.
What I need, is a high speed video camera for real comparison work.
I have used one for checking the gas system action on AR's (bolt bounce and such).
Have 4 more India Bosch on the way for comparison and further fiddling.
-
So. Some initial conclusions.
Diesel alone isn't sufficient to lube the body threads.
There was some jerking reaching final torque that I didn't care for.
Test 1 they wept still, three out of four.
Test 2 after using some handy royal purple oil to lightly lube the threads and mating surfaces and
going to 65 instead of 52, no leaks.
Pop pressure was not discernibly changed with the increase in torque.
The india Bosch nozzles, 2nd set that I opened now (first set came with the tester I bought and two were open)
pop tolerably for normal use, no dribbles, nothing crazy. Not a one of them sprayed what I'd call nice.
Sample size of 8 but nothing really surprising.
They were all sort of a elongated oval if viewed from above or below, if that makes sense.
I really don't think it'll make a damn since the pattern is gone and burning an inch away from the nozzle
and my eyes can't tell dick about the pattern when it's that tight happening for a split second other than
if something really nasty is going on with it. I strongly suspect there is some leeway there given proper pop
pressure and not leaking. I still wish I had a high speed camera but I don't know what I'd do with the data
once I had it. I might play with hand lapping my older nozzles that still sprayed pretty well later.
Truck runs well but honestly, I can't tell much difference. It ran really well before, runs really well now.
One injector was low, hundred PSI or so, but they sprayed fine.
I think it's slightly more clattery now,
which is odd since I set them to 1925 give or take 50psi, so if anything it should be retarded on the timing
now.
Didn't smoke in the slightest before, doesn't smoke in the slightest now. Up hill lugging it, no smoke.
Weird. It's still a hell of a lot stronger than a stock 1.6.
This weekend I'll see if the smoke screw works I reckon.
I'm a little annoyed they leaked the first time around, but I think I understand why.
I'd like to procure some of the famed Monarc German nozzles and see how they spray/run.
I have a crap load of injector bodies to do something with now.
-
The threads on the injector body halves do not provide the seal. The mating surfaces on the intermediate disk do.
-
Correct, but diesel alone was not sufficient lube to let the body halves tighten freely, was the issue.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
-
One trick that I use to find leaks before installing the injectors is to put shaving cream on the two halves while pop testing them. Works most of the time and it's a lot less work than testing on the engine.
-
I'll give that a try, thanks.
I had held pressure on for a minute or so, little under break pressure, with the
pop tester and they didn't leak at the body joint, but they wept quick enough the
first time installed. Heat and vibration maybe. I feel a lot better about the torque spec
with lubed threads. Should have just done it to start with, no different than a head bolt or such.
-
So when are you setting up the business to take all our old injectors and make them spray perfect? Seems like a good sideline now that you have the particulars under your belt.
Do you think at $45 an injector the shops really do as good as you would? Buy that high speed camera as a business investment and write it off. Send video with each injector you service as proof you did and do good work.
-
Business might be a strong word, but I'd like to do a few sets cheap for folks, if I can
break even on what I bought the tester for I'd be content. I like fiddly OCD stuff like this,
even though I complain about it. I had figured on setting up a video for each injector in the
least, my eye is out for a cheap high speed one but I have a feeling what is shows isn't going
to be pleasant, least not with cheap nozzles. I'm gonna build another set and find someone
to be Guenna pig for me.
There's people out there that do this stuff for there automotive community, I know there are one or two
the Mercedes guys use on the easy coast. They use Monarch nozzles or nothing, that is probably a clue.
-
....................
I'd like to procure some of the famed Monarc German nozzles and see how they spray/run.
I have a crap load of injector bodies to do something with now.
It's Monark btw. ;D
When I greased my Jetta at 180K miles I was able to get a set of Monark SD297 nozzles, installed and pop tested myself. I take them out every 10K miles to inspect and pop test them and they had good pattern, no drip the last 2 times I took them out. Didn't even take the injectors apart, just used a soft brass wire brush to remove the slight amount of carbon around the tip. Engine is at 210k now - time to take them out again to have a look. I bought my own pop tester (a commercial unit) so that I can be sure they're done right. I've never sent any injectors out. Hate the down time and not knowing what you got when you get them back. Too bad the person I got the Monark SD297's from can't get them anymore. LMK if you find a source.
-
I was told MercedesSource could get em, will see eventually.
I've got a bunch of car guy contacts in Europe but I try and not my work stuff with my own
car stuff if I can manage it.
I'd like a finer reading gauge on this tester I have too.
I'm well within 25psi on all but one and that one is about 50
off at worst, I got sick of taking them apart.
Really wish I'd bought one of these years ago.
Wonder if I can polish the bodies on a set...
-
WE had a discussion going about cleaning and doing stainless dip on them a bit back. Now we're talking BLING
-
Not really my bag but I have seen some pretty enough engine bays with 1.6's that they'd fit in.
I'm not metallurgically inclined but they feel like metal that would polish up well.
Mine have the patina of age, I stuck with brass brushes so just took off the crud.
-
I think that was the final outcome, just polish brightly with brushes or wool or scrubbies and seal with something clear and heat proof. See how they do. Not sure it was ever done.
-
2nd testdrive down, starts good, runs good.
I'm in my paranoid stage of post-maintenance mind you, but it clatters more.
Cold and hot.
The KSB previously took almost all clatter out when it kicked in on cold start
in the mild climate here. Zero in warm driving. I've always thought the little NA AAZ
didn't sound like a 1.6 at all, and it sounds more like one now. Is that bad?
I'm not sure. There is still zero smoke, which is sort of comical. I plan to back the
timing off and see how it sounds, if that does not pull some of the noise out of it
I'll be concerned. If it does, will try and get it to smoke at least a little on WOT.
The clatter makes no sense, I raised pop pressure, unless my gauge is wrong.
-
Well one out of the four new Indian Bosch nozzles doesn't spray well so far. I don't think I'm surprised. Debating weather to order more or try the Chezch made Meyle brand.
If a new nozzle "doesn't spray too well" it is almost certainly because you introduced some foreign material into it. This is VERY easy to do, and the reason that it's best to only change nozzles if you can test them to assure yourself that they are right before you use them. There is a reason that they do this work in a clean room. Take that one back apart and clean everything with carb cleaner and blow it dry, then wash it down with WD-40 or some other aerosol lubricant as your reassemble it. Try not to lean over the injector when assembling it and make sure your hands are ABSOLUTELY clean before you start.
-
Done that, twenty times over. The set installed now were never disassembled, went from container to injector body.
Cleanliness was not an issue.
They all spray about the same too after prolonged observation. They look about like the ones I had in there the last 50k or so.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
-
The clatter makes no sense, I raised pop pressure, unless my gauge is wrong.
With higher presure, the delivery pipe rings a little harder when it gets whacked by the pressure drop.
Hows that for a theory?
-
The clatter makes no sense, I raised pop pressure, unless my gauge is wrong.
With higher presure, the delivery pipe rings a little harder when it gets whacked by the pressure drop.
Hows that for a theory?
Awesome theory, I've heard that ping and wondered on other motors, I hear it on this one too now.
There is still a marbely diesel clatter there now that wasn't present before. I've heard it often
enough and it isn't exactly un-good in my opinion, but I'm curious why it's there now and wasn't before.
-
Static timing is .93, and it is definitely more clattery with fresh injectors, which I believe is a distinctly different
noise from the "ping" the piping makes. I'm puzzled. It isn't really objectionable
when it's warm but it's seriously there when cold, and it wasn't before which is the opposite
of the expected effect of increased pop pressure. I'm going to back the timing off
when I get a chance and see how it sounds.
-
Before you change the timing try running it off some fuel that has had 2 stroke oil or mineral oil added to it. I think the extra lube and fuel characteristics will change the tune the engine makes.
Come on humor me. Timing change is too easy and you want it at .93 don't you? For that wicked advance.
-
Been running 2 cycle oil and either redline or LM diesel hi-test for a decade my friend.
US diesel blows. My pump is new enough I don't use any wax or such to thicken it up.
Good idea though.
Further driving today, it really runs well, and it's not clattery hot unless I try hard to hear it, like
2nd gear through a residential area, window down, head out, with something to reflect the
noise. I think it was just too quiet before maybe. It was almost oddly quiet.
With it's one low popping injector and mediocre spray patterns.. Go figure..
I thought I heard a bad noise at idle. Then I pushed the clutch in.
*** you Sachs. A lot.
-
I thought I heard a bad noise at idle. Then I pushed the clutch in.
*** you Sachs. A lot.
You think your clutch rattles...try a Sachs VR6 clutch on a modded AHU....it is starting to slip and I am eager to have a relatively quiet car at idle..but not eager to spend $$$ on a new silent performance clutch
-
Yeah, so I've heard.
Soon as I quit being pissed off about it I'm going to order a Luk to shut the stupid thing up.
In other news, put a good fifty miles on it this weekend and it drives great.
I still think it's overly clacky cold, but I don't know how much the KSB advances timing
VS the manual cold start lever on the normal pumps. Been poking around for such info
but nothing yet.
-
Well it took a year but I think I finally put 1K miles on those injectors, pulled them out and popped them yesterday.
I was pleased to see the spray pattern matched my observations recorded here, down the one with the 2 degree tilt to it
and them all having a flat rather than conical spray still, and they were all still about 1900ish-psi. I may lower the pop pressure
a bit while they are out. After a year of pondering off and on over the experience, I don't believe the human eye is at all capable
of discerning anything but gross errors in the spray pattern within a few inches of the nozzle (where it matters). I'm aware that any
errors are likely magnified further downstream, but I question how concern worthy a magnified error really is.
I'm going to drag my box-o-injectors down and maybe build another set or two.
Has anyone put any kinda miles on the Meyle nozzles? That stuff is crap usually, but the India Bosch aren't just screaming great either.
Anyone figure out what the difference is between the A1 Rabbit era 1.6D nozzles and the A2 Golf/Jetta era 1.6D nozzles?
The part numbers are still different, so are the reman injectors.
Oh, just put the LUK clutch in finally while i had it apart. Looking at the wear on that Sachs
after under 5K miles, I imagine it would have ejected one of the springs, or the center section, inside 10K more
miles. The LUK piece seems to be well made comparing the two. I notice the damper springs are dual on the LUK.