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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: trent77 on May 11, 2013, 10:13:50 pm
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ok, Maybe I completely messed up, you be the judge. I got the turbo pump installed, I did not realize that the injection lines for turbo pumps were different lengths than the originals. So I removed the fuel delivery valves from the eco pump and one from the "new" pump. I left all of the internals in the pump and checked the springs and they are identical, so I swapped the longer housing to the turbo pump and hooked the lines up. It seemed perfect, but I have never timed a pump before and it will stumble but not start. any help? Thanks
Trent
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If the pump is "known good", I'd crank that rig with the nuts loose at the injectors and WOT to verify fuel at each injector (not gonna run). If that's good, then tighten up, set timing to spec to begin... fine tune after it's running.
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what is WOT?
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Wide Open Throttle, which doesn't really exist on a diesel. Basically, mash the throttle, so that you're getting full fuel delivery, which should purge the air out of the pump and let you know it's actually getting fuel through.
Air can be compressed, diesel is a liquid, can't be compressed. So the diesel will open the injectors, but air won't and you wont get air out of the system unless you give it a place to go.
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forgot to mention, before I ever did the pump swap I had the car idling and it had been for 5-10 minutes and then it just stopped dead. the starter would turn over the engine, but it would not start. The injection pump was a bit of a drooler, so I attributed it to that. Now i'm not so sure..
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Did you use the same out bolt?
Take that off and make sure the little hole is cleaned out. Also check your fuel lines on car for restrictions and make sure your fuel filter is good.
I had those kind of problems recently where the car would start and slowly choke itself until it came up to temp. And restriction would get so bad it would not hot restart right away without relieving pressure in the system.
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Are you sure the pump was running on another engine recently? All dino diesel these days has about 5% BD in it to lube the fuel injection system. This is in place of the petroleum oil they used to use. I have been seeing a number of pumps recently that have the insides gunked up with stuck vanes in the supply pump. This may be what is going on with your rig.
I suspect that the BD in the diesel fuel we are seeing these days may gel up after prolonged storage. I have a very low miles AAZ in my Low Buck GTD that has no supply pump function after sitting a while. I may pull it apart later today.
Are you seeing fuel with absolutely no air bubbles in the clear(ish) line between the filter and the pump. If it has one. I usually pressurize the tank to about 3 psi and bleed the air out of the filter and then out of the supply like to the pump. Do not use more than about 5 psi in the fuel tank or you risk blowing the line off the tank and then you get to watch diesel come gushing out of the 11mm nipple on the tank. It will empty the tank before can stop it if it is not already up in the air. Ask me how I know. I have a gas cap or two with a dry break fitting that fits my leakdown tester. Set it at 3-5 psi and get to bleeding. If you loosen the OUT bolt it will push fuel into the pump as well.
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UPDATE.. The car starts and idles great, and sounds beautiful!! but as soon as I touch the accelerator it dies... Also while it's running I crack the injector lines one at a time, and just like when removing a spark plug on a gasser it "misses" then I tighten them up. This tells me all are firing and I am getting fuel to all cylinders. All help appreciated.. Thanks
Trent
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Read above, you have to make sure you aren't dealing with restrictions it can stop you cold.
Make it easy on yourself and get some cheap clear hose and run a hose from inlet and return barb into a clear container of fuel to run the engine from.
And make sure that out bolt is clear. Spray brake cleaner through the big part and you should see fluid trickle out of the little hole. You can poke it with a needle to clear it, etc.
Then start the car and watch how fuel moves, if there is any air bubbles, etc.
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Sorry, I should have put that. I did run it directly from a fuel can with clear hose. things cleared up , no bubbles and easy starts, just will not run above idle.. sorry, should have put that, also replaced all return line, because I had torn one .
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Are you sure the pump is fully primed? I once had a pump that would run at idle, but would die when I hit the accelerator. It turns out it wasn't priming correctly. Once I filled the IP up with fuel it ran great.
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I guess I am not sure. I thought I had it primed. will the air not work through at idle?
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If it still does not start after you prime the pump and opened each injector line, it may be that your pump is waaaay too advanced. I just redid the timing belt for the second time and the damn car would not start. I cranked and cranked and cranked and finally it sputtered to life with a cloud of grey smoke at idle. When mashing the throttle a nice cloud of black smoke was pouring from the tail-pipe. Plus its making some nice clackety clack noisy :)
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Yeah, I only had one pump not prime properly out of 10 years and a dozen different vehicles. If you have a mighty vac or similar vacuum pump, you can suck on the outgoing banjo fitting, and make sure the pump is filled. Some people will hang a fuel tank above the pump so gravity is forcing fuel into it. On a non-turbo pump, you can pull the out going banjo fitting, and fill it with a funnel and a coffee filter. I can't remember if this works on turbopumps though??
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You guys are not thinking clearly. If it runs, its primed. Nothing else you do will change anything. It has stuck vanes in the supply pump. This is getting much more common. I suspect its due to the BD that is now in all diesel fuel as a IP lubricant. Try rigging an electric fuel pump and see if it revs up. If it does you will know. Just adding the lift pump won't cure the problem though. The high internal pressure that the supply pump produces inside the case drives the advance.
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Hey, I know it's crazy, but I had a pump that partially primed and idled, but did not go beyond idle until I manually filled the injection pump. I have no idea how that could happen. But after I filled it manually it ran for years. Maybe it was a fluke, but it's something easy to check.
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Not a fluke. Stuck vanes in the supply pump. The fluke was that they got enough of them unstuck to run.
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I havnt filled up on diesel in over a year, when did they start putting Biodiesel in as a pump lubricant?
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quick update. Last night I ran the car and checked ins, outs, etc... As I said earlier, it idles great. What I have found though is it is constantly drawing air bubbles into the pump from the filter. I picked up a new filter and will start there and then work my way through the hoses if need be... and lets stay civil, we are all car guys here... Thanks for the input.
Trent
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quick update. Last night I ran the car and checked ins, outs, etc... As I said earlier, it idles great. What I have found though is it is constantly drawing air bubbles into the pump from the filter. I picked up a new filter and will start there and then work my way through the hoses if need be... and lets stay civil, we are all car guys here... Thanks for the input.
Trent
You said earlier you ran it into a container with no bubbles and same problems right? You didn't have the filter connected at that time did you?
Because that is your starting point with a pump with issues. You have to rule out the restrictions with a clear out bolt, and watch the fuel flow. The pump will move a good amount of fuel through the hose even when just cranking.
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The OUT bolt is clear.. I have removed it and cleaned it. I ran the car from a container, but through the filter. I believe this issue has to do with me swapping the fuel delivery valves and I am stopping here until I get some responses to emails I have sent out. Thanks for the help everyone.
Trent
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Swapping delivery valves should do absolutely nothing...unless there was something wrong with the valves or you ended up getting some crud in there somehow
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The OUT bolt is clear.. I have removed it and cleaned it. I ran the car from a container, but through the filter. I believe this issue has to do with me swapping the fuel delivery valves and I am stopping here until I get some responses to emails I have sent out. Thanks for the help everyone.
Trent
Ok so you didn't really start at square one if you used that same filter. Good idea you are getting another you should always drive with a spare on hand.
For fun hook a hose up to the old filter and try and blow through it. If you can't with normal breath its probably clogged.
Bad filters can trick you. You can cold start and idle on a clogged filter. But go and try and drive that same car and stab the pedal and it can die.
This just happened to me a few weeks ago. All of a sudden, with only 6,000 miles on a bosch filter. I think I may have had some other things going on though in that I found pine needles at inlet of filter even though I thought I had blown the lines out when swapping jetta tank in.
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So, update..
It's running and running quite well. I took the pump off and took it to a local injection shop. They set it up on the test bench and straightened it out. I'd love to give you the specifics, but I don't know what they are, but they fixed it!! The only issue I have now is when I shut it off somewhere it is drawing air back from the pump to the filter via the supply hose. I will get to the bottom of it. Thanks for the input, and I imagine it will be getting the Gile's treatment in a year, I just wanted to run the car for awhile and feel better about spending the cash!!
Trent
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Most common place for air to get in to the pump in the manner you describe is the pump shaft seal. I'm assuming you aren't seeing fuel leaking anywhere?
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you are correct, no leaking fuel. The guy that adjusted the pump said that if that seal leaked it would be leaking fuel out.
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The front shaft seal is under suction when the pump us running unlike the rest of the pump seals. If it leaks then it will tend to let air in to the pump rather than leaking fuel out (though they can do that too).
However you can also have a leak at the injector return lines which can siphon air back in to the pump. Usually though that won't show air at the inlet right away after shutting off the engine as the air would have too long a pathway to go to show up that quickly.
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