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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Bugsy_malone 666 on May 09, 2013, 05:45:37 am
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Ok I had a thread on here recently about how the my camper with a 1.6TD engine was running like a heap, when through tons of stuff and ended up finding that there was a bad valve lifter on cylinder3.
So I totally replaced the hydro lifters with new ones, retimmed the cam and fuel pump, along the injectors from another engine and once the engine was running, it was fine. Had a water leak and fixed that despite getting the engine super hot it was still all good and then I ran it for a few hundred miles.
So basically after a bit of a test run I drove to my g/fs 35 miles away, warmed the engine up and went over to the veg oil tank and it ran ok but wasnt great, so I have been thinking its the filters, so I changed them after covering around 60 miles on veg oil total. I did manage to cover about 30 odd miles also on regular fresh shell diesel which is decent stuff from a fuel station which is only 6 months old(so new tanks and everything). Then the other weekend it started really badly before I went to go home, so I drove home on veg oil for about 15-20 of the 35mile journey, got home and parked it up. At the time it was really loud as the exhaust had broken, however when I went to start it the other day it had bigger issues!
So heres 2 videos of it running for a couple of minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2y3pU26mms (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2y3pU26mms)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZsN1QGzzGg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZsN1QGzzGg)
Basically you can see just about on the video how its smoking like hell and thats on diesel too and having run for a good 5-10 miles before switch off on diesel so the system is purged of any oil.
This problem is similar to what I had before only 10 times worse. It starts easily but runs like a heap, once its warmed up it runs ok ( as you can see from the second video near the end when I'm at the back it runs almost clear once you get above idle) and after 10 minutes or so its almost normal. Listening to it, it does sound like majorly noisy injector and at certain revs the engine becomes quieter.
The question is, could the fuel pump be kippered also causing injector nailing, or equally explain why after a few minutes of warm up it starts running better (like something has expanded causing greater fuel pressure so actually firing properly)
I'm a bit stuck now :(
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Wow dude, STOP running it. It sounds like your cam timing is off and your pistons are hitting your valves.
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Wow dude, STOP running it. It sounds like your cam timing is off and your pistons are hitting your valves.
Yes it sounds a bit like that but I have driven about 500 miles in the past few weeks and I can assure you thats not the problem, as previously I have had this same problem which turned out to be a bad hydraulic lifter coupled with slightly out injector pump timing. I have as a result recently totally cam/crank/injector timing and its spot on/has been running so.
The problem has been once its been run on WVO for a while, to this point you see here which is exactly what it did in november.
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Maybe possible if the head was decked, but the valve seats not cut to mach?
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Maybe possible if the head was decked, but the valve seats not cut to mach?
There would be a compression issue.
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The head is already flat, decking it brigs the valves closer to the pistons without changing compression much.
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The engine has 155k on the clock, its never had the head off. I'm just really scratching my head as to where to start with this now as its strange how the problem has reoccured, I can only think injection pump issues now.
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Anytime I've seen an engine run that badly, it was from starvation, air or loose injector lines. I think a plugging out-bolt might have similar effect.
I'd cycle a can of Diesel-purge to kill two birds: bottle feed and de-gunk. If the problem resolves, I'd check the cleaning/dewatering and lines/filtration.
If not, I'd swap in an IN-bolt to ensure the OUT bolt is not the issue, and pop the injectors. If those are good, then the IP would be my prime suspect.
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Ok tonight I have done a bit more trouble shooting.
I think its fuel related, that much I am certain. So Tonight I started the van up and heres the thing it actually starts really well, unlike previous issues it starts straight away but may not fully fire up unless I have my foot on the throttle. So I think the timing is bang on. Using the Cold start advance has very little affect, a tiny bit, but not alot.
So I got it started, running like a dragster as per videos and revving it didnt cure anything to start with and generally it was hammering pretty badly. I figured I'll run it for a few minutes to warm it up and see how things change and sure enough after a few minutes at lower revs (1500rpm or so) it suddenly stopped hammering and sounding like a bag of nails and it quietened down to sound 'normal' but it was spitting a little and then it just seemed to clear, it stopped smoking and was running 'nice' at 1500rpm.
I revved it up and it was still sounding ok but at really high revs is was still a little noisy. Then I let the revs drop. I proceeded to gently lower the RPM from 1500-1400-1300-1200 (I dont have a rev counter but you can kinda tell) and it was running as it should, until I got to about 1000rpm where it missed the odd beat so letting off further it turned evil dragster, it was like you got to 1000rpm and someone threw a bag of nails in the manifold! From 4 cylinder to 2 cylinders with a ton of smoke and a bag of spanners sound!
Raising the revs back to 1000rpm didnt really solve it, but raised a little further it just cleared totally back to silence running.
It will not idle at all, it stalled umpteen times and at a push it runs for about 30 seconds like a dragster when you let off the throttle making it difficult to even get to the back of the van to rev it up and listen that end!
As light wasnt great as it was getting late I couldnt see alot in the engine bay, but what I have noticed is I have a small diesel leak, for some reason it seems that on cylinder 2 the injector is leaking, the other week I though it was the return line, so I replaced those all but still it was wet and when I had a closer look it was leaking from around the nut that goes onto the injector, the nuts tight too, so unless theres a tiny bit of something on top of the injector of the pipe just needs seating, but seriously I cant see that causing the way this runs, we have lots of other diesel stuff here and you just lose a cylinder when you crack a pipe off or have a leak, it doesnt sound like a bag of nails!
I mean I dont have masses of experience with diesel, but to me it seems like the pumps not putting out enough pressure on idle and when the revs pick up its then enough to pop the injectors properly (which I changed the other month for a better set I have which may just need a higher pop pressure). On the previous thread I had it was mentioned about the vanes inside the pump sticking and I am wondering if thats the trouble I have, so tomorrow I am going to look to swap the fuel pump over with the others I have (I have a TD of an unknown quantity and an NA that I ran for a while then had starting problems, which we think was down to the slow starter that then when pop). If the problem remains then then I will swap from my unknown TD to my NA pump, now I know how to time it all up and see how that goes, the NA pump used to run the injectors but if the TD pump works then I'll stick with it and tear mine down.
Other than that I am not sure, I do think however the engine itself is in average mechanical condition and the noise and issues I'm having are fuel pump related.
Any other suggestions would be useful while stripping it.
Cheers :)
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I'd tear apart your 1.6 TD pump that you have on the shelf and reseal it prior to stripping in to your bus. For the amount of work you are about to partake on.. It would be worthwhile to swap in a good pump to begin with. Don't you think? lol.
There are DIY's out there to rebuild pumps, and the seal kits are readily available.. Might as well learn how to now eh? lol.
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well in my mind swapping the pump over isnt all that long job based on 4 hard lines, 4 flexi lines, 4 bolts and a cambelt. However I have seen how many parts there are in the TD pump and my workshop is in no way clean/clear enough to start working on fuel pumps.
Plus at the moment its the time, by the time I track a rebuild kit down and get it shipped thats a week, plus rebuild time, if I swap pumps its a mornings work :)
Rebuilds on the cards as I also planned to look into the governor mod while I have a pump in bits anyway :D
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Alright then, I'd at least recommend running the pump with a drill and fuel lines to make sure it is pumping correctly prior to installation and to be sure that there is no crud stuck in there. I recommend using ATF as the fuel you will be running through it, as it will clean and lubricate. Install it full of fuel for no priming BS when first starting.
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You mention IP pressure as a possible culprit. Have you tried tapping in the regulator on the front of the pump a tad or two? Raises the base internal pressure and may change initial timing. Could be as easy as tapping on a punch and hammer. Granted in the space you have that is no easy chore. Vans got a nasty rep for that reason I think.
I much rather have a hood. Now for back seat room? There you go me.
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I can't believe you ran the motor sounding like that. When a motor sounds like that shut it off and find out why before you ruin everything. It sounds to me like you do not have enough oil pressure to keep the lifters pumped up. Does the light even work? Put a gauge on it for a while to verify what the oil pressure really is. If that's OK check the cam timing. I don't care if you checked it 2 minutes ago, recheck it NOW. Something in the valve train is banging hard. I expect you don't have much more running time before it gets really expensive. Make SURE you get an oil pressure reading when it's banging it guts out, not just during a quiet period. If all that is good, then move on to fuel issues.
FYI running that WVO crap through these motors ruins them, so don't do it on anything that you do not intend to scrap when it quits. U of Idaho did a lot of research on this along with their BD stuff and discovered that do to incomplete combustion of the glycerine in the WVO, you end up with a bunch of gummy deposits on the injector nozzle that collect carbon particles to form a nice abrasive goo that eventually sheds and eats the rings and cylinder walls.
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Every time, and there haven't been many, I have heard a vw-d run ragged like that when it wasn't hard-core mechanical faults, it was air in the fuel, lots.
It sounds exactly like the last Rabbit I tried to get to fire up with a huge sucking lesion in the front pump seal.
The rest I can't tell if it's exhaust or mechanical noise.
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Start with the basics, run it from a pressurized supply of clean fuel, like a can with an electric pump.
FYI running that WVO crap through these motors ruins them, so don't do it on anything that you do not intend to scrap when it quits. U of Idaho did a lot of research on this along with their BD stuff and discovered that do to incomplete combustion of the glycerine in the WVO, you end up with a bunch of gummy deposits on the injector nozzle that collect carbon particles to form a nice abrasive goo that eventually sheds and eats the rings and cylinder walls.
I guess they don't know how to chose or filter their oil. Typical students I guess.
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8v - Not sure I hav any ATF knocking about, is power steering fluid the same sort of stuff? I was also thinking, because if I am cleaning the pump off the vehicle, what about petrol? I know normally it kills fuel pumps but thats when you have a fully pressurised system and injectors, but with all that stuff its not under as much pressure and potentally safe?
I can't believe you ran the motor sounding like that. When a motor sounds like that shut it off and find out why before you ruin everything. It sounds to me like you do not have enough oil pressure to keep the lifters pumped up. Does the light even work? Put a gauge on it for a while to verify what the oil pressure really is. If that's OK check the cam timing. I don't care if you checked it 2 minutes ago, recheck it NOW. Something in the valve train is banging hard. I expect you don't have much more running time before it gets really expensive. Make SURE you get an oil pressure reading when it's banging it guts out, not just during a quiet period. If all that is good, then move on to fuel issues.
FYI running that WVO crap through these motors ruins them, so don't do it on anything that you do not intend to scrap when it quits. U of Idaho did a lot of research on this along with their BD stuff and discovered that do to incomplete combustion of the glycerine in the WVO, you end up with a bunch of gummy deposits on the injector nozzle that collect carbon particles to form a nice abrasive goo that eventually sheds and eats the rings and cylinder walls.
Seriously get off your high horse there chap, the noise is injectors not the engine turning inside out, our tractor has a very similar clatter to some of its injectors and thats something that has pushrods, it also has a bit of smoke but having done a mechanical rebuild on that except the fuel system we know its the injectors, equally my dad with 30 years of experience said you'd be surprised how loud it gets when the injectors arent firing correctly. The oil pressure light it fine and works great as I get slightly low pressure on idle when the thing is really hot (when its running normally) and apparently this can be quite common. The oil light comes on at 13psi so as soon as I pick up the revs by about 50rpm it goes out, I may just have the idle set a little low, but generally this is only a problem when hot. Having enquired about the various oil types someone said VW dont actually give a idle spec, its 2000rpm 28psi minimum and the amount it was leaking when the rocker gasket wasnt seated right, I think its easily achieving that.
Installing any sort of pressure gauge isnt possible, especially one I can see, its a Van and to get to the engine is a nightmare. The engine actually runs like a bag of nails on idle at the moment, not at the higher RPM which it was doing, so something has cleared a bit.
Now the point also is the fact that about 2 weekends ago I was driving this and it was fine, I drove it 35 miles home from my g/fs and it was still running perfect when I parked it up, its more like something seized/stuck up into position when I turned it off and left it for a week. Now there is the potential for this with WVO, but not in the couple of hundred miles its done on the stuff.
The WVO I am using is actually fairly good grade, it comes from our restaurant at work and the chef has worked in many places and said how bad some stuff can get, the stuff he gives me he said is actually the cleanest he has seen out of a restaurant and theres not much water in it either. The oil itself I leave to settle for a month or 2 then its strained through a sieve, then felt 100/50/25/5/1 Micron Filters meaning it is free from ***/debris and is actually filter to a micron rating below normal diesel filters (which tend to be 5-7 micron). Then in my van I have a fully heated second tank from the main heating system, a preheater near the pump and heated lines, it then runs through a big double tractor style filter which has 2 filters and a glass bowl for water trapping. In my mind the system is actually built to one of the best specs I have seen and people are slugging in any old crap and having less issues than me!
As previously mentioned I have noted a small leak from somewhere which I am going to investigate today weather permitting of course. If its leaking from the pump, its a definite change!
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Dispels most of the nay saying.
I had an injector stick on me once and it sounded like there was something seriously mechanically wrong in the engine. It cleared as well after I cleaned the injector a second time. Never actually found what I would consider a problem. No bits of anything came out. I was running 200 miles at a time on WVO as well. With a 5 mile exchange back to diesel so maybe just not enough time at the speed I was traveling.
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I had one sound like that on dino diesel that was just a bad nozzle, and in half an hour of run time, it burned through the water jacket and destroyed the fresh head.
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FWIW, filtering and heat won't eliminate microscopic water dispersed in veggie oil. If it passes the "crackle-test", it might be OK, but some folks dispute even that. Another thing to avoid is Hydrogenated VO... it has the water built-in.
I second the motion to run dino from a clean jug. Check the flow from the out-bolt to verify ~1L/min at idle.
It is possible a vane (or more) in the lift-section of the IP is stuck or sticky.
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Start with the basics, run it from a pressurized supply of clean fuel, like a can with an electric pump.
FYI running that WVO crap through these motors ruins them, so don't do it on anything that you do not intend to scrap when it quits. U of Idaho did a lot of research on this along with their BD stuff and discovered that do to incomplete combustion of the glycerine in the WVO, you end up with a bunch of gummy deposits on the injector nozzle that collect carbon particles to form a nice abrasive goo that eventually sheds and eats the rings and cylinder walls.
I guess they don't know how to chose or filter their oil. Typical students I guess.
Actually no. This was a decade long federally funded alternative fuel research study. Most of what we know about making, testing, storing and using BD came from them. They abandoned work on WVO early on because of the engine damage they were seeing. You see the glycerin in the VO does not but hardly at all. No way of getting around that.
BTW, if you have a filter that will clean glycerine out of VO of any kind sell me the technology and we will both get rich.
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Toby, didn't they find that mixing the WVO with lye and methanol in correct proportions based on pH of the oil took care of the Glycerin? Hence developing BD?
Are you looking for the technology that does that on the fly? need to have another tank or means to dispose of the glycerin. Not just hose it down to the ground either as I am sure that would be recommend by some reading here. Blow by OK, but slippery substances the make wheels go weeee. Not so much.
I don't think it would be a filter per se, it would have to be a separator. Something along the line of an air hose water separator. You would have to empty it. And that would be tricky, and likely messy. Not to mention slippery.
How many home production folks are set up this well and follow these guidelines? Few I am sure of that.
http://web.cals.uidaho.edu/biodiesel/files/2012/11/Technote7_HB.pdf
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You missed the point. BD has no glycerine, so it does not have that problem. No amount of filtering will cure the issues with trying to burn glycerine.
As to the noises the engine is making: If you are wrong the motor will be junk in a few minutes. I have heard lots of motor noises in lots and lots of diesels. Usually if you have an air leak bad enough to make those kinds of sounds it is about impossible to start the motor w/o dragging it a while or running it on WD-40 sprayed down the intake.
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I quit even clicking on FS adds that have "WVO" in them anywhere.
If for no other reason than the cars are chronically disgusting and smelly
since apparently the majority of people that use it are part-timers and trying to get
something (a ride) for free. To each there own but I consider it a real shame
so many good cars/motors of a dwindling supply have been ruined by the stuff.
Be it from incorrect and uninformed use or an actual unavoidable problem.
Result is the same. I'm pretty happy to pay $4/gal for my 40mpg-ish ride
until it runs out or they come up with affordable higher capacity/output batteries
so I can convert something and it not be a joke.
My .02c
Am interested to hear what a pressurized fuel supply with straight diesel does on the van still.
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Toby. I understood exactly what you were saying. I think you missed my point Read it again... Took care of the glycerin!!!
Maybe I should have ended with thus they came out with BD. Sorry if I miss led you.
That is the solution to glycerin in WVO as I comprehend it. But I still have a WVO setup. The individual I was getting oil from was an out of work engineer who demanded the right raw product, has a great filtering, centrifuge drying system so I never got a line to form in the containers I stored his delivered goods in.
I don't run much on WVO anymore so the payback on my super heated, super filter, super gauged system is for wow factor only now. I thought about pulling it but just siphoned out the weight instead. Now it is ass end high from the spacers I put on earlier.
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BD and WVO are very different animals. I run BD in some of my rigs, and shortly will run it in all of them. My point was: WVO is crap; BD is good. Because BD has eliminated the glycerine it has none of the issues with eating the piston/rings/bores over time that WVO does. All your super filtering aside, it still has all of the glycerine based valve grinding compound being created inside your motor.
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How much wear are you talking?
One guy I know went 300K miles on Veg, saved the money he would have spent on fuel, then bought a brand new truck with it.
No rebuilds were done.
I've seen a ton of vehicles rendered inoperative by poor plumbing, and only one engine defineably destroyed by deposits...but that guy was hardly changing his oil while dumping iffy WVO straight in his main tank, and sometimes getting less than a day per fuel filter. I've also seen some wasted injection pumps.
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How much wear are you talking?
One guy I know went 300K miles on Veg, saved the money he would have spent on fuel, then bought a brand new truck with it.
No rebuilds were done.
I've seen a ton of vehicles rendered inoperative by poor plumbing, and only one engine defineably destroyed by deposits...but that guy was hardly changing his oil while dumping iffy WVO straight in his main tank, and sometimes getting less than a day per fuel filter. I've also seen some wasted injection pumps.
Much like turbo'ing a NA motor, if you cut the life expectancy of a 600-800K motor in half
it's still longer/farther than most anyone keeps or drives a given vehicle.
Commercial use excepted.
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Don't be silly. Most VW diesels don't get 200K without replacement or major repair work. It is possible to get more, but 600K is a pipe dream. I have owned well over 3 dozen diesel Rabbits and Jettas and worked on a hundred more and I have never seen one get 300K on the original motor. I know that they do sometimes rack up that kind of mileage but it is truly exceptional.
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No, having a single owner and consistent maintenance is what is exceptional.
The motors will do 500 on the bottom end if one does not screw something up, usually need a head every 200K or thereabouts.
The chassis they are in usually fall apart or rust or get wrecked or become so threadbare that people don't want them,
and maintenance has long since fallen by the wayside when things are at this point with a 3rd, 4th or 5th owner.
We racked crazy miles on these things way back when.
Least the factory stuff, no comment on rebuilds, most are insufficient in some area.
Not all that different from the Merc diesels of the era, VW not quite as durable or long lived
but pretty close.
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Don't be silly. Most VW diesels don't get 200K without replacement or major repair work. It is possible to get more, but 600K is a pipe dream. I have owned well over 3 dozen diesel Rabbits and Jettas and worked on a hundred more and I have never seen one get 300K on the original motor. I know that they do sometimes rack up that kind of mileage but it is truly exceptional.
So again, how much impact are you talking? The vehicle in the 300K case was a Ford, so 300K was middle to high lifespan, but it still ran fine when he traded it in.
I took my own apart after 30K on grease, and it looked like any other 275K motor inside. Later my pump input seal failed, but it was probably 25 years old.
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I'm pretty happy to pay $4/gal for my 40mpg-ish ride
Well by your pricing scheme its what a dollar a litre? works out about $2.14 a litre in the UK! Diesel in the UK hasnt been a dollar a litre in about 17 years or so.
Mainly when diesel here was around $1.83 a litre wasnt too much of a bind in a vehicle as my van does somewhere in the region of 35-45mpg(uk 4.5litre gallon)
Biodiesel might be my next investigation, seems many folks have been running veg oil conversions for 40-50k miles with no real problems, I have covered less than 1k on wvo and had alsorts of issues, but some of it I question might be related to an engine thats 25+ years old with 155k+ on the clock having never had recon parts that I can see. If you make enough biodiesel the cost falls to something like $0.23 a litre and thats great.
The glycerin can also be recycled, its whats used as a base for soap and you can make soap from it with some minor processing, thus recycling a waste product.
Am interested to hear what a pressurized fuel supply with straight diesel does on the van still.
Unfortunately I dont have any electric fuel pumps or anything and its very difficult to do alot to the van, generally when its running its fine, its just recently its been crap.
What I have been noticing with WVO is over a long time period it becomes sticky a bit like glue/grease sort of thing and I am wondering if perhaps this might be the problem having caused something to stick in the pump when it was sat. Ultimately going forward I'll be looking at thinning the oil with maybe 30-40% dino diesel before in future going biodiesel.
The vans kind of a test bed for many things like this as in the future I plan to look into have my own large diesel stationary engine running on waste oil. Got a feeling there was an old open crank type engine that actually runs on waste engine oil! I suspect in the stationary engines wvo might work better as they run alot hotter!
Rains been spoiling play so havent had chance to try and look at/break the van today, looks like the weathers going to be rubbish this week too! Always the way and I have a mk3 golf in bits doing the brakes on, exhaust to build for this van and the troubleshooting too and it typically rains!
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Much like turbo'ing a NA motor, if you cut the life expectancy of a 600-800K motor in half
it's still longer/farther than most anyone keeps or drives a given vehicle.
Commercial use excepted.
I just bought a real nice 2000 TDI Jetta for $1500. Dealer maintained all its life. Just had timing belt, water pump, GPs, etc. 330 on the clock and not enough compression to start ay 50*F.
This one seems on the high end of what I see all of the time.
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No comment on TDI's. Very little experience with em.
There is a lot more to longevity and the zen of motor
health than oil changes at the dealer or such though.
I could believe that an "average" TDI lives to 300K or so,
like an "average" IDI lives to 200K.
Most of us here aren't average.
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The "average" TDI I see is easily at the 300k mark or higher where I am, many in great condition.
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The "average" TDI I see is easily at the 300k mark or higher where I am, many in great condition.
I could believe that too. ;D
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I have finally found the problem!
- I dont think its anything to do with the fuel pump.
- I dont think its anything to do with WVO.
- Minor leak on the injectors, dont think its that either.
You know on the end of the crank there is a channel for a woodruff key? Well what a crap design. Either that or its a safety feature so you dont damage anything too badly
So as you see here:
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/Sprockets.jpg)
3 different equally rubbish designs where there isnt an actual woodruff key but its cast onto the sprocket, mine doesnt have anything anymore.
So I will part appologise to Tony, in theory running it will screw it up, but with the problem I had previously this was unexpected. I was just starting it up to move it and it chugged and stopped, then when I spun it over it sounded like someone had a decompressor on (which in theory with the valves open/close there wouldnt have been compression. Equally it didnt sound like the valves were banging against the pistons or anything, just sounded like the valves were open.
So I originally thought hmm maybe the cam had snapped, I'll investigate, got the rocker cover off to find it as it should be, put my socket on the crank nut and started turning clockwise to find it was loose, I cant see why it was loose as during the recent works I have been going clockwise consistantly. Thats when I was like aww crap.
So for now its back to the drawing board, gonna have to bung the stock Aircooled petrol engine in so I can move it and stuff and because of what happend I am going to have to look at rebuilding an engine, hoping nothing is knackered but it wasnt my plan to do this at this stage!
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I called it in post #2.
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you may have called it, but whether you knew why is a different matter.
I had this same problem recently with smoke and poor running etc and that was the fuel pump timing. For the most part all I got was people ***ing on about bad fuel and veg oil, nothing of the sort, pump timing sorted it, fine for 500 miles and I drove it home fine.
Its the fact that something actually broke, a common part failure outside of my control is the PITA. In realistic terms, the moment I fired it up it was doomed, so theres no points for being right on this one. I think good job I wasnt doing 70 down the road though.
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Bent valves?
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Bent valves?
If the valves were open even the slightest, they most certainly contacted the pistons. There is literallyless clearance than the head gasket is thick between the valves and pistons.
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I don't get it, whats bad about the stock design on 1.6 engines? I have not met one engine that I have broken down yet that has even a hint of wear with that keyway on the crank or the sprocket. I have been reusing each along with the old style bolts, torquing to spec and haven't had any issues?
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Bent valves?
If the valves were open even the slightest, they most certainly contacted the pistons. There is literallyless clearance than the head gasket is thick between the valves and pistons.
It was more a suggestion than question.
;)
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I don't get it, whats bad about the stock design on 1.6 engines? I have not met one engine that I have broken down yet that has even a hint of wear with that keyway on the crank or the sprocket. I have been reusing each along with the old style bolts, torquing to spec and haven't had any issues?
I think the post 1.6 and pre-tdi are trouble prone. VW changed the bolt early on too, one is reusable and one isn't on the early idi or some such. Every time I have to dick with one I go read up again. I've managed to never have to pull the one off my aaz and its not a serp belt so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. The clutched alt pulley is part of the equation too.
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you may have called it, but whether you knew why is a different matter.
I had this same problem recently with smoke and poor running etc and that was the fuel pump timing. For the most part all I got was people ***ing on about bad fuel and veg oil, nothing of the sort, pump timing sorted it, fine for 500 miles and I drove it home fine.
Its the fact that something actually broke, a common part failure outside of my control is the PITA. In realistic terms, the moment I fired it up it was doomed, so theres no points for being right on this one. I think good job I wasnt doing 70 down the road though.
I said to stop running it and check timing. Pistons were hitting valves. You decided to argue against checking the timing and went along with 3 pages of the thread. When you mentioned that you drove it with it running that poorly and had no concern it was clear that I was wasting my time trying to help and would reserve any further input for the fun of the "I told you so" and the resultant back-and-forth banter. Thanks for the accommodation. ;D
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I would mention that I have removed the crank sprocket from many 1.6 engines. I have seen where the earliest real woodruff key version has worn and damaged the crank. I have not seen a single instance where the cast in keyway has failed with the v-belt system EXCEPT where the cam timing has slipped and the pistons have been hammering the valves. If your crank keyway failed on your 1.6 it is most likely that the cam slipped FIRST and the added stress of driving the cam over valves that were pushing on the pistons is what caused the sprocket to fail, not the other way around. If you had heeded the initial warning, stopped running your engine and checked the timing before continued hammering you may have come away with considerably less damage.
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you may have called it, but whether you knew why is a different matter.
I had this same problem recently with smoke and poor running etc and that was the fuel pump timing. For the most part all I got was people ***ing on about bad fuel and veg oil, nothing of the sort, pump timing sorted it, fine for 500 miles and I drove it home fine.
Its the fact that something actually broke, a common part failure outside of my control is the PITA. In realistic terms, the moment I fired it up it was doomed, so theres no points for being right on this one. I think good job I wasnt doing 70 down the road though.
I said to stop running it and check timing. Pistons were hitting valves. You decided to argue against checking the timing and went along with 3 pages of the thread. When you mentioned that you drove it with it running that poorly and had no concern it was clear that I was wasting my time trying to help and would reserve any further input for the fun of the "I told you so" and the resultant back-and-forth banter. Thanks for the accommodation. ;D
Even if I had stopped running it and checked the timing, whos to say I would have found anything? There is the potential for the timing to have been right.
I havent driven it anywhere running 'poorly' its been running fine since I reset the pump timing about 4-6 weeks ago when for no reason it was running rubbish and getting hard to start but some adjustment to the fuel pump fixed this issue. Also a bad hydraulic tappet with a bit of rattle on 3, I replaced the whole set, after doing a load of research before putting the cam back in I even tightened the cam end bolt up just slightly over 'book spec' (only a couple of ft/lbs)as people on various places on the internet had suggested that this should stop any slipping with the lack of keyway on the cam. So the van has been running fine except on WVO, which seems to make it run slightly less well. But when I ran it home last time I drove it, no problems and a good 5 miles purge time before shutting it off. Start it up after that day and it runs awful.
I appreciate help diagnosing a problem, but are you really suggesting if you were running alternative fuel, you'd start by checking the timing (which takes almost a day to do on this van as its impossible to access the flywheel timing mark.) vs looking at the fuel system and the potential for a failed pump?
However I think theres alot more to it than me not taking peoples advice. The engine was running, but on 2 cylinders, the other 2 were missing and timing tends to cause a different issue as I found with the pump timing out a few weeks ago, same symptoms but the pump timing was out. I had that same hammering before and it was nothing to do with the cam timing and was spot on, it was actually a bad hydro lifter.
The problems cant be soley diagnosed with the timing because of the alternative fuel I have also been using, adding the possibilty of pump sticking, this brought me onto a possible theory after seeing about the issues with the alternators causing this sort of failure on the 1.9s, perhaps the use of the alternative fuel put sufficient stress on the fuel pump to have a similar effect to the alternator?
Either way regardless of whether I took advise or not, after I started it up after that sunday drive home, the engine was pretty much scrap at that stage it seems.
So back in with an aircooled petrol engine for now for 6 months until the winter when I'll look to start a rebuild. I have an NA 1.6 and this TD so I am sure between the 2 I can make something reasonable, but right now with a new house about to rape my bank account I could do without rebuilding this diesel.
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If I had something with an old VW-D in it that took more than a half hour to check the timing on I'd sell it.
Or not have a VW-D in it. :-\
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I appreciate help diagnosing a problem, but are you really suggesting if you were running alternative fuel, you'd start by checking the timing (which takes almost a day to do on this van as its impossible to access the flywheel timing mark.) vs looking at the fuel system and the potential for a failed pump?
I would most certainly check cam timing first. Impossible to access the flywheel timing mark??? It's unimaginable to me that anyone would go to the extensive work of an engine conversion without doing the comparatively insignificant task of making an easily readable TDC marker. That would be an essential part of any conversion and only add about 10 minutes to the job. The two easiest installs in a bay would be with an adapter plate from somewhere like Kennedy or to use the diesel vanagon bell housing. The adapter plates have a hole on the engine side that lets you see a mark on the flywheel and the diesel vanagon bell housing has a readily accessible hole in the bell housing. What mounting system did you use? What do you have to do to read the timing mark, pull the engine??
Anyway, the fun of this thread seems exhausted for me. Have fun with the air-cooled. Luckily for you the cam and crank are geared together on that one... ;D
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Anyway, the fun of this thread seems exhausted for me. Have fun with the air-cooled. Luckily for you the cam and crank are geared together on that one... ;D
(http://i.imgur.com/lYvtJ9W.jpg)
The easily readable TDC marker on my mk3 petrol golf is actually on the front pulley, which in a golf is an arse to get to without taking the wheel off, in my van piece of cake. The TDC flywheel marker is actually under the fuel tank area on my bay hence why its hard to reach in and see, with the Vanagon the fuel tank is under the front somewhere and means more room in the engine/gearbox area. I have one of those Kennedy type adaptors, I think its an early one as it only allows fitment of the engine at 15 degrees not 50 degrees as the new plates allow both and there is no access for seeing the TDC mark. Equally with the vanagon the TDC mark is actually on the clutch, not the flywheel meaning there is the possibility of it being manufactured wrong depending on the manufacture.
In the Future when the engine is rebuilt I am going to make sure there are alternative markings on the front that line up with the woodruff slot and pulleys to make it easier as recent timing problems have been a nightmare. I'm also going to look for a bay/vanagon engine hatch to install, which dont seem to be all that cheap! I was also considering using my KEP plate so the engine can bee installed upright so it might be easier to work on, although I suspect not.
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Each of the Kennedy adapters I have seen have a hole on the engine side of the plate by the back of the block by the exhaust manifold. They use a Kennedy specific flywheel (or driveplate) which has a punched mark on the back which corresponds to TDC. It is actually the most convenient TDC marker system on any VW diesel I have dealt with as it has the accuracy of being on the larger flywheel and yet is very easily readable while turning the crank by hand. Checking the cam timing with a Kennedy adapter in a Bay should take any reasonably skilled individual less than 5 minutes. Please post a pic of the adapter plate at the back of the engine below the exhaust manifold.
Here's one fastened to an ALH in a BAY:
(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/963538.jpg)
Notice the aqua plug.
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Well I am intreaged now, I shall have to investigate. I know my problem will be that I dont have the KEP flywheel, I have a vanagon flywheel on the bus and for my beetle (which I was fitting a golf GTi engine to using this adaptor plate) I was using a passat flywheel.
I'm also wondering what the little threaded bolt hole is just down from the plug as it doesnt bolt up to the gearbox. I'll have to have a look when its dry, as in future I may have my engine fitted this way.
I dont suppose you have more install photos of this particular engine install or is this just a pic you managed to find?
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I believe that other threaded hole is for installing the engine at the 50° angle.
That is not my vehicle but I do have an ALH installed in a '91 vanagon @15° using a Kennedy adapter. Mine is an automatic, tho. I have also worked on a couple other inline-4s in vanagons that used the KEP system. I can take some pics of the TDC marker on the driveplate if necessary. There are also some other labelled degree marks on it that can be helpful for gasser timing.
I do not believe that the diesel vanagon flywheel will work with the KEP plate. Regardless, even if the hole is not present in the plate or if an alternative flywheel was used, drilling a similar hole and making a similar TDC mark would not be particularly challenging.
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Thats interesting to know.
I think the KEP plate and vanagon flywheel might actually work, when doing the conversion I noted that the vanagon bellhousing is 1" deeper than the baywindow camper one, the KEP plate is 1" thick! Flywheel clearance might be an issue, not sure. I think its ok, as I know a guy who put a golf mk3 Gti engine in a karmann ghia and he used the vanagon flywheel and a KEP type adaptor plate (I bought the passat flywheel off him as its a bit big for a ghia gearbox, but not a camper one).
Anyhow, found 5 mins to look at mine tonight shortly after posting, I had never noticed it before but mine does indeed have that same hole in about the same place. I must admit its been a number of years since I looked at that part of it.
I certainly think going forward it would be alot easier to use something like that as I could just look under my valance and see it, but the vanagon one I have at the moment as I said is almost impossible to see.