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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: chrissev on March 07, 2006, 12:15:21 pm
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It runs! 1.6 block/1.9 head combination is successful. It made tons of white smoke when I started it. Then smoked right up to normal operating temp. So I said screw this, and I took it for a drive. It smoked a lot for the first km or so, then gradually less. Still smoked and missed at idle. So I pulled out the cold start, and no more smoke or missing. Put a few more kms on it and I am almost able to drive it with the cold start in without missing or smoke (still does it a bit but not as much as it was doing). What a noise though that thing makes, the sound is unbelieveable. It is like a cross between a Mazda and a Harley Davidson. It has this whisper smooth, clock-like idle, like a swiss watch, and then this low grumble when it accelerates. It is freaky. I like it. Also is very peppy and has a real power boost above 2500 rpm. It's weird and I don't know yet if I'd suggest to anyone that they try this, but I am definately liking it so far. I'm going to take a video of it running and driving and post it somewhere so people can hear this thing. The sound is just amazing.
Chris
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cool! keep us posted chris. i've been thinking about this more and more lately.
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That's great news.. here's a sound clip of my 1.6/1.9 with lower compression and different turbo, accelerating slowly:
http://media.putfile.com/Malones-16TD---early-break-in-engine-audio
It was recorded with a small digital camera so I don't know if it fully captured the sound. There's also a lot of rattling from the exhaust pipe & an intercooler pipe, which should be disregarded. How does your 1.6/1.9 sound compare?
Lots of smoke and misfire.. I've gone through that, thanks to low compression from modifying the 1.9 head. My smoke didn't reduce significantly until after ~6,000 km. In your case it sounds like your misfire and smoke will decrease in little time. Just keep driving!
Upload your clip at http://www.putfile.com for free. The only catch is that you have to register (also free) after 10 uploads.
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Malone, did you check your private messages since few months? :lol:
And dou you have new videos after break-in period?
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cool! keep us posted chris. i've been thinking about this more and more lately.
well like I said, not sure if I'd recommend this to anyone. Once it warms up it is great. But you have to sit there for ten minutes while it smokes like a bonfire until it does warm up and then you can drive it. I'm not sure it's practical. I'll let you know after a week of driving this strange engine combination whether it is worthwhile to do this or not
Chris
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Congrats getting it running, Chris! The smooth idle means you probably didn't bend a valve or damage anything during the head installation - also good news.
Given people's natural tendency to report only the positive aspects of modifications they invest time and money to try out, your honest evaluation of both the good and the bad aspects of this modification experiment is refreshing and commendable.
I look forward to any future updates from you on this.
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cool! keep us posted chris. i've been thinking about this more and more lately.
well like I said, not sure if I'd recommend this to anyone. Once it warms up it is great. But you have to sit there for ten minutes while it smokes like a bonfire until it does warm up and then you can drive it. I'm not sure it's practical. I'll let you know after a week of driving this strange engine combination whether it is worthwhile to do this or not
Chris
maybe if you were to have a longer glow plug cycle? like i think the 1.9 is?
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cool! keep us posted chris. i've been thinking about this more and more lately.
well like I said, not sure if I'd recommend this to anyone. Once it warms up it is great. But you have to sit there for ten minutes while it smokes like a bonfire until it does warm up and then you can drive it. I'm not sure it's practical. I'll let you know after a week of driving this strange engine combination whether it is worthwhile to do this or not
Chris
maybe if you were to have a longer glow plug cycle? like i think the 1.9 is?
well as it is now, it smokes huge and misses until it is warm (ie normal operating temperature, temp gauge half way up). Then it runs fine, doesn't smoke at all, and is very powerful compared to when it had the 1.6 head on it. The problem is that it takes a while for it to warm up. Right now with the temps hovering around 0 degrees it takes about ten minutes. During warm up time like I said, tons and tons of smoke, heavy misfiring, and it's not driveable (I've tried, it bucks and jumps, won't smooth out) I don't think the longer glow time would last all the way till it got to normal operating temp. It might be a compression problem. Or there might be something about the 1.9 head that was changed, and the rest of the set up was changed also, like a difference in the 1.9 pump or a difference in the 1.9 pistons, or the valves are longer and the timing is different for opening and closing. Not sure really why it needs to be fully warmed up to be functional. I expect it will be better in the summer.
Re: spent lots of money on it...well I've spent $60 for a headgasket and $20 for some head bolts, and that is about it other than buying the 1.9 head, which I can sell again if this doesn't work out. I am in the midst of rebuilding the 1.6 head so I have the option of putting it back on again for around $70 or so. Not sure yet what I'll do. It would be nice if I could find the bug that makes the 1.9/1.6 combination not practical. I guess the thing to do would be to find out everything about the two heads that is different and then see what thing causes the smoking and missing when it is cold.
Chris
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Once it warms up it is great. But you have to sit there for ten minutes while it smokes like a bonfire until it does warm up and then you can drive it.
Is it really a good idea to idle for 10 minutes after a cold start?
I still blow a massive amount of white smoke during a cold start, but after 10-15 seconds of immediate driving the smoke is cut down by 90%.. then 30 seconds later there's the occasional blue/white haze until I reach optimal operating temp ~15 minutes later. I call the cold-start smoke the "Big Bang," :lol: and I attributed that to my lower-than-normal compression. That aside the engine is factory-practical for daily use.. I've driven probably around 10,000km since 4-5 months ago.
It'll be interesting if you have the same cold-start smoke "problem" after break-in. Please do keep us updated...
Just out of curiosity, what is your piston protrusion height and your headgasket thickness?
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Sounds like you do have a compression problem caused partially by the 1.9L head.
What head gasket did you use ?
How was the compression before you swapped heads ?
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not driveable (I've tried, it bucks and jumps, won't smooth out) I don't think the longer glow time would last all the way till it got to normal operating temp. It might be a compression problem.
I've been through the exact same thing. Just keep driving and your compression WILL go up. The fact that the season is getting warmer will help a little.
If you're concerned about the misfire, buy a ZeroStart (or TDIHeader) and let it warm up your coolant system before you start. Electricity comes from your home/garage.
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How was the compression before you swapped heads ?
Wait a minute... chrissev is using an old block? i.e. not a freshly rebuilt block?
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Once it warms up it is great. But you have to sit there for ten minutes while it smokes like a bonfire until it does warm up and then you can drive it.
Is it really a good idea to idle for 10 minutes after a cold start?
I don't have a choice at the moment. The engine misses too much to be driveable. The miss firing seems to be directly related to the smoking, as soon as it idles smoothly when it has fully warmed up and there's no more misfiring, also no more smoke
It'll be interesting if you have the same cold-start smoke "problem" after break-in. Please do keep us updated...
the block's not recently rebuilt. has about 70k on it. And the head also has a few K (about 10 k I've been told). I just mated the two together. So there might not be that much of a difference for a break in period.
Just out of curiosity, what is your piston protrusion height and your headgasket thickness?
head gasket thickness is a three notch. Piston protrusion was measured for that gasket when the engine was originally rebuilt. I haven't checked it again. Doubt it would have changed significantly.
Chris
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Sounds like you do have a compression problem caused partially by the 1.9L head.
What head gasket did you use ?
How was the compression before you swapped heads ?
compression before the swap was OK. It smoked for about a minute when I started it below 0 degrees, but it would start down to -20 without a block heater so it must have had some compression. I used a three notch. That is what the guy who rebuilt it originally had on it and he measured it for that gasket.
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How was the compression before you swapped heads ?
Wait a minute... chrissev is using an old block? i.e. not a freshly rebuilt block?
yeah, the block is an older rebuild. Has about 70k on it
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I'm curious as to know what your compression #s are now.
I've no idea what my compression is, but 935racer has the compression tester.. for some reason we haven't found time to do it.
I don't have a choice at the moment. The engine misses too much to be driveable. The miss firing seems to be directly related to the smoking, as soon as it idles smoothly when it has fully warmed up and there's no more misfiring, also no more smoke.
After you start the engine, hold the accelerator at WOT until the RPM finally climbs (this may take a few seconds).. avoid overrevving as it's hard on the engine. While you're able to rev above idle RPM, let out the clutch to begin moving the car and you may need to put the accelerator back to WOT.. putting load on the engine will reduce the misfire.
Once you're moving continue holding the accelerator at or near WOT during low RPM (keep shifting & lugging).. you won't accelerate quickly and your engine will run smoother from the start. The misfire time will cut down much more quickly. I use just enough fuel in this case not to exceed 800 degrees F pre-turbo EGT. I also don't rev higher than 2,800 RPM during cold start.
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Perhaps it's possible to install smaller volume prechamber cups in the 1.9L head.. if it will make a difference for compression.
Note that andy2 installed larger GM precups in his 1.9L IDI head to lower compression (1.9L block, big boost). I'm not aware of a smaller precup that will fit a 1.9L IDI head though.
FWIW I'm currently running a 1.6 camshaft in my 1.9 IDI head. We initially tested a customized cam and the compression was horrible... low 320's cold. The custom cam has more lift and IIRC stock duration. If I recall correctly the stock 1.9 cam has more lift than a stock 1.6 cam. That said, a leak-down test for your engine might be a good idea as well, in addition to a compression test. We found leaks through my valves with the custom cam (NOT the same cam that Passenger is selling, by the way). I haven't tested a fully stock 1.9 cam unfortunately. The one that came with my 1.9 IDI head was badly damaged by previous owner.
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Have you played with the injection pump timing to see if that helps with the cold start smoke?
Maybe advancing it a little might help.
What's it set at now?
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1.9td video with turbo sound - 2" straight pipe.
http://www.supermotors.org/getfile/173947//dieselzukbump3.wmv
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This is a great read. I'm following it very colsely, as I have a good 1.9 head sitting on my workbench. A 1.6 TD block won't be hard to find.
As for the misfire and smoke, I ricosuave might have a point... what about putting in a set of Duraterm plugs like the 96-on 1.9s use. I know the glow plugs in my 96 1.9 stay on for 3 minutes when I first start. If I turn them off manually, the car runs like crap and smokes.
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This is a great read. I'm following it very colsely, as I have a good 1.9 head sitting on my workbench. A 1.6 TD block won't be hard to find.
As for the misfire and smoke, I ricosuave might have a point... what about putting in a set of Duraterm plugs like the 96-on 1.9s use. I know the glow plugs in my 96 1.9 stay on for 3 minutes when I first start. If I turn them off manually, the car runs like crap and smokes.
The pump timing is set at 0.039 which is the limit I've been told. I would advance it further, but I am afraid of damaging the pistons. I wonder if the glow plug idea would work? It takes about 10 minutes right now to warm up. But after 3-4 minutes it would probably be driveable. If I put the plugs on a manual switch and just kept them on for the first 5 minutes it would probably be fine. Might just be the big prechambers and extra air from the big intake ports that makes the engine have poor combustion and missing when it is cold.
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I use a manual switch for glow plugs as well. It doesn't solve the cold-start smoke and misfire problem, but it does mildly reduce white/blue smoke while driving (especially idling or during low load) until optimal temp is reached.
Have you played with the injection pump timing to see if that helps with the cold start smoke?
Maybe advancing it a little might help.
What's it set at now?
Not to say that it won't help chrissev, but I've been through that many times: Timing was adjusted from .80mm to 1.20mm (a very extreme range) with no positive results. Using OEM spec timing or reasonably max. advance (i.e. 1.05mm) and using the cold-start pull seems to be sufficient.
Might just be the big prechambers and extra air from the big intake ports that makes the engine have poor combustion and missing when it is cold.
Been through that.. I temporarily tested it by partially blocking the intake inlet to restrict the amount of air going in. It did not make a difference. I also tried blasting warm & hot air directly into the intake via a high-powered heat gun with a 3cm dia. nozzle. It didn't seem to make a difference either.
Just stating my experience...
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I use a manual switch for glow plugs as well. It doesn't solve the cold-start smoke and misfire problem, but it does mildly reduce white/blue smoke while driving (especially idling or during low load) until optimal temp is reached.
Have you played with the injection pump timing to see if that helps with the cold start smoke?
Maybe advancing it a little might help.
What's it set at now?
Not to say that it won't help chrissev, but I've been through that many times: Timing was adjusted from .80mm to 1.20mm (a very extreme range) with no positive results. Using OEM spec timing or reasonably max. advance (i.e. 1.05mm) and using the cold-start pull seems to be sufficient.
Might just be the big prechambers and extra air from the big intake ports that makes the engine have poor combustion and missing when it is cold.
Been through that.. I temporarily tested it by partially blocking the intake inlet to restrict the amount of air going in. It did not make a difference. I also tried blasting warm & hot air directly into the intake via a high-powered heat gun with a 3cm dia. nozzle. It didn't seem to make a difference either.
Just stating my experience...
well I did some research on the 1.6 and 1.9 engines. I think I know what the problem is and unfortunately I don't think I can solve it. The 1.6 engine has pistons which come all the way up to the valves, into the head gasket, and the air is compressed in the prechambers, where the fuel is injected. Combustion starts there. This would be the partial combustion that I am experiencing when the engine is cold. The combustion then expands through the precup hole and into the cylinder, where it finds a small space on the indented area in the piston, and the force of this continuing combustion pushes the piston down and completes the power stroke cycle. The problem with the 1.9 head being used on the 1.6 block is that there is an additional area where the combustion can go when it comes out of the pre-chamber, that being the space around the piston, and also the pre-chamber exit on the 1.9 head is not exactly aligned for the indented area on the 1.6 piston, meaning the combustion will be searching for a place to go when it exits the pre-cup in the 1.9 head. When the engine is cold, the space around the piston where there is extra air is cold, and the engine misses. When it is warm, the space in this area is warm so the cylinder will fire, but there will be reduced torque because the combustion isn't centred in the middle of the piston but rather spaced around the cylinder. That is my theory. It is all I can see that is different. So to make this combination work I would have to get rid of the space around the piston, and modify the piston crown so that the indented area was directly below the exit of the pre-cup.
I'm not going to do that. So I will now proceed with my original plan and rebuild my 1.6 head (it's in sorry condition, has like 450,000k on it and needs total refurbishing) and install that instead. This was an interesting experiment.
What has probably happened on Malone's car is the space around the piston has been gradually filled up with carbon, so his engine now smokes less, but it still misses and smokes when it is cold because the pre-cup exit isn't perfectly aligned with the indentation on the piston. That would explain why it took 6000km to reduce the smoke problem. If malone and other people who have this 1.9/1.6 combination want to fix their cars so they run nice, what they have to do is change the location of the pre-cup exit so that it is directly on top of the indentation in the piston, and they also need to get rid of the space around the piston caused by the bigger 1.9 head gasket piston hole. I unfortunately don't have the facilities to do this, but vw935racer seems to have a machine shop at his disposal so maybe this could be done on one of his 1.9 heads to test my theory?
On the upside of it all, I now have a really nice 1.9 head for sale, it is a turbo head and it works great (still on the car so I can verify that for anyone who wants to buy it, come and hear it run, then I'll take it off and you can have it.)
Chris
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What has probably happened on Malone's car is the space around the piston has been gradually filled up with carbon, so his engine now smokes less. That would explain why it took 6000km to reduce the smoke problem.
By extra space around the pistons, I'm assuming you mean the larger bore in the 1.9L headgasket.
I failed my first Aircare (emissions) last Fall with a 49% exhaust opacity result. That was during the first 1,000km of the 1.6/1.9 setup IIRC.
My 1.9 head was pulled in the middle of December (after roughly 4,000km of non-stop idle smoke.. still guaranteed Aircare fail) with a headgasket replacement and it was under 2,000 km later when I went to Aircare and passed almost flawlessly with a 2.69% diesel smoke opacity, below the average 6.90% reading. Maximum allowable reading is 30%.
Although we switched from a 3 hole to 1 hole headgasket and ceramic coated the inside of the prechamber cups, the smoke problem was still just as bad when we started it up. 1 week later it's still the same, much to our disappointment. However, another week or two passed by and the smoke level was reduced amazingly. At that point I did the aforementioned 2.69% Aircare. To this day the smoke is still nice and low, aside from the first 30 seconds of cold start. Why didn't this happen in 4,000km from October to December? I think my block was still breaking in and the compression went up a bit.
That said, I'm not sure about the carbon build-up around pistons being a significant contributor to my smoke reduction. Seeing as a few people have run 1.9 headgaskets in complete 1.6TD longblocks, I have yet to see any of them report difference in smoke. Misfire isn't happening either.
Not forgetting that the deck of my 1.9 head was grinded down in 4 places each cylinder, resulting in more cylinder volume.. if they weren't grinded down I bet my cold smoke would be reduced even more, making it more practical for anyone.
the pre-chamber exit on the 1.9 head is not exactly aligned for the indented area on the 1.6 piston, meaning the combustion will be searching for a place to go when it exits the pre-cup in the 1.9 head.
This does make sense. Haven't thought of that myself. This somewhat encourages me to perform the piston crown mod that can also supposedly improve top end HP. There is a large thread covering this in this forum. Besides that it also makes the 1.7L project more appealing. It consists of a AAZ longblock with a 1.6 crank and custom rods.
935racer did note that my pistons have a very nice even burn over them after approx 4,000km. I'd like him to elaborate more on that.
There will be reduced torque because the combustion isn't centred in the middle of the piston but rather spaced around the cylinder. That is my theory. It is all I can see that is different.
In theory, the reduced torque makes sense, but from practical experience the low RPM torque is mind-blowing.
These are Gtech results with my old 90bhp 1.8L 8v gasser and the 1.6/1.9 with LDA disabled (ecodiesel or NA style).. both using exact same transmission, and in the exact same car:
http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/gtech/8v_vs_16td_eco.jpg
Also compared my old stock 1.6TD to my power enhanced 1.6/1.9:
http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/gtech/16tdstock_vs_16tdmod.jpg
The above Gtech plot is a better example - the torque gain during low RPM is very noticable. The wheelspin on wet roads is silly. I never had much wheelspin when my car (same car, same tires, same transmission) had the standard 1.6TD longblock with Giles pump.
I wish I recorded from 1,500 RPM instead of 2,400 RPM onwards.. will do that next time.
I also drove the 1.6/1.9 with the intercooler piping removed (no boost into the intake) and it still moved nice *shrug*
My deck mods may have something to do with the torque, contrary to your findings.. boy, in addition to prechamber cups and piston identations that sure complicates the combustion process even more. :lol:
If I were to do it all over again I'd have the 1.9 head ceramic coated more thoroughly. I think I'd keep the deck mod as it seems to have positive results. The ceramic coating should reduce the size of my cold start smoke during the first 30 seconds... 45 minutes or so of driving afterwards is pure bliss :twisted:
It looks as if the 1.6/1.9 combination is only for those who are serious about performance. More people may be better off modifying the 1.6 head that could possibly be ported to match the stock 1.9 head's flow. A modified 1.6 head may be more economical than a 1.9 head, but for bleeding edge performance, a modified 1.9 head is the way to go.
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For what its worth chris It would still be nice to compare compression results now with the 1.9 head on then when you put the 1.6 head back on we can test it again(just one or two cyl's).I have the tool's and don't mind doing so just so that everyone can see the results,and It will help for others still questioning this combo!
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For what its worth chris It would still be nice to compare compression results now with the 1.9 head on then when you put the 1.6 head back on we can test it again(just one or two cyl's).I have the tool's and don't mind doing so just so that everyone can see the results,and It will help for others still questioning this combo!
I might be able to bring it by your shop this Friday afternoon if I can get an issue with the water pump worked out. If not then next Friday. How late are you there on Fridays?
Chris
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Yep, just like I said before, the 1.9 head is for performance! No point unless ultimate IDI power is required.
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Yep, just like I said before, the 1.9 head is for performance! No point unless ultimate IDI power is required.
This is very true. Nothing else going for the 1.6/1.9 engine/head combination at all. It basically takes a good running 1.6TD engine and turns it into a smoking, misfiring engine, in the name of increasing horsepower and torque. It is a little unpractical. I go out in the morning to start my car, and I have to sit and wait for ten minutes while it bucks and misses, and pours out smoke like I've never seen before in all my years of driving IDI diesels. It is incredible. The smoke fills up my whole front yard. It covers the neighbour's house so I can't see it. I have never seen so much smoke come out of a car before. The first time I started it I just stood there watching the thing and shaking my head, like who in their right mind would want to do this sort of thing to a car? At any rate I've arranged to swap the 1.9 stuff for a good rebuilt 1.6 head so I will soon be back on the road again without having to choke to death on the fumes pouring out the back of my poor car. The situation is almost funny really. Man that is a lot of smoke. I feel like someone has played a practical joke on me. I just sit there like, holy sh*t am I supposed to deal with this every day I start this thing? Anyway enough ranting.
Chris
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For what its worth chris It would still be nice to compare compression results now with the 1.9 head on then when you put the 1.6 head back on we can test it again(just one or two cyl's).I have the tool's and don't mind doing so just so that everyone can see the results,and It will help for others still questioning this combo!
anyone who's questioning this combo, you gotta tell them about the smoke. It is a huge issue. I'm not talking about a few puffs here and there. I'm talking about like if your neighbour's house was on fire. It is thick, dense, pluming smoke. It goes everywhere. Sometimes I can't see the car. People need to know about that if they are going to try this. I think compression would be a secondary thing to worry about.
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Since October 2005 and about 10,000km later I have yet to receive a single complaint from my co-workers or my neighbors (I live in a dense neighborhood) regarding my cold smoke. Hell, I work in the Vancouver RCMP (police) headquarters! Outside of work I got pulled over at a roadblock once.. they just gave me a warning for no front license plate. No they didn't know I work for the RCMP as I was in casual clothes.
During the next 50,000km or so I'm expecting the cold smoke to continue dropping a little. Honestly I'd be quite discouraged off if I received a complaint, but so far so good.
I fully disagree with your "completely impractical" statement. A little impractical, yes, but only during 30 seconds of cold start in my case. After that it has better low RPM torque than a stock 1.9 TD and is great for city driving. Smoke is neglible or non-existent after cold-start. Completely impractical? I don't think so. I love it.
It's not unlikely to have to sacrifice something in daily driveability when you want bleeding edge performance. i.e. road noise after vehicle weight reduction, grabby clutch, low compression, etc.
I guess we've learned that if you just want to slap a stock 1.9 head on a 1.6 block without making other improvements or without concern of having a fast little IDI, then you've probably wasted your time. Ceramic coating and perhaps modding the piston crowns should be considered. A thorough ceramic coat may be more than enough for me for a daily driver.. 45 minute commute in heavy traffic each way. It's not that bad like you described :lol: I think there might be other issues in your setup.
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It's not that bad like you described :lol: I think there are some other issues in your setup.
well I'll know soon enough when I slap the 1.6 rebuilt head on it. I'll see if it smokes as much with that. With the old 1.6 head on the car, it smoked a small amount at cold start up (in comparasin to what it is doing now anyway, at the time I thought it was a lot of smoke, but now I know what a lot of smoke looks like, the smoke before at cold start up was hardly anything in comparasin to what is happening now). I saw a pic of your car when you first started it and it looks similar to what I experienced and am currently experiencing. Once it warms up it doesn't smoke at all, and it misses a bit below 2000 rpm (which I don't like, because I like to just let the clutch out in first gear and not touch the accelerator, and let the car move by itself in traffic jams, can't do that now because it bucks and misses below 2000rpm). Above 2000rpm it is fine, sounds really cool, and is more powerful than with the 1.6 head. So you are right about the power. But my major complaint is the cold start up smoking and missing. Perhaps your engine with all the mods you've done works better, plus you have a fresh rebuilt block, mine has around 70 k on it.
will soon have a rebuilt 1.6 head on it so I'll keep you posted as to whether it smokes and misses like it is doing now at cold start up. That will be the test I think.
Anyway, the 1.9/1.6 combination was interesting, and it makes awesome power at higher rpms, but there are cold start up issues that I can't deal with. I need a car that starts at -15 and doesn't smoke until it warms up. I can't deal with that much smoking.
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Is there some reason you can't use the 1.6 head gasket with this swap.
Other than the 1.6 head gasket isn't a metal one?
I still think it wouldn't hurt to advance the timing a little and see what happens to the startup smoke.
My 1.6 TD used to start rough and smoke white smoke at .039.
It started up and ran better at .042
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The 1.6L headgasket has a bore that is too small.
I still think it's mostly a compression problem.Mark's motor was probably down on compression,as the rings take a while to seat.Chris's motor is probably getting worn out.Add in the fact the 1.9L head seems to drop compression a bit more,and you have problems.Advancing the timing should help it,but it's not the cure.
I'm still interested to see some compression numbers from these franken engines,as I'm building one for myself.It must be able to start cold,and drive off with little to no smoke.
I'll have to tear into a 1.9L head next week,and find out where the differences lie,and what we can do to fix it.
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Something is wrong with your engine, check injectors first, than while you have them out do a compression test followed by a leakdown test is the compression is low. This will tell you all you need to know. MArks engien still smokes a bit but not mcuh at all anymore, the compression has obviosuly gone up after engien break in liek all engines. however his compression will still be a bit low due to the deck modifications. Mark will liekly be bring his car in for a water pump this weekend so I'll do a compression test than but really the #'s won't mean that much.
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Something is wrong with your engine, check injectors first, than while you have them out do a compression test followed by a leakdown test is the compression is low. This will tell you all you need to know. MArks engien still smokes a bit but not mcuh at all anymore, the compression has obviosuly gone up after engien break in liek all engines. however his compression will still be a bit low due to the deck modifications. Mark will liekly be bring his car in for a water pump this weekend so I'll do a compression test than but really the #'s won't mean that much.
Nothing is wrong with the motor. It has about 70k on it since a rebuild and it works fine. I have taken a few vids of it, cold and warm running, and will upload them to putfile for you guys to see once they send me my confirmation email (still waiting). Like I said, cold, tons of smoke and it misfires on all four cylinders. Warm, runs like a top, sounds awesome, is very powerful above 3000rpm, and has zero issues other than a slight missing/bucking characteristic below 2000rpm (most gasoline engines are like this also so it's no biggie). If someone could figure out how to make this engine/head combo start up nice and idle when it's cold, it would be an awesome set up. As it is, the set up needs work and I need my car for a daily driver and can't deal with it as it is. So the head will be pulled later today and I'm putting a rebuilt 1.6 on it. I am kind of sad about the whole thing, because the engine is really good when it is warm, but I need a reliable winter vehicle and this engine/head set up doesn't give me that. Andy is coming over tonight to check compression on the 1.9/1.6 set up so I'll have numbers to give you guys. Then I'll put on a 1.6 head and he will check it again. That way you'll have an exact comparasin of the compression numbers on a totally bone stock configuration.
Chris
PS: I used rebuilt 155 bar turbo injectors with low mileage on them. The head is fine and so is the engine, as you will be able to tell quite easily from listening to it run after it has warmed up. No knocks or bangs, just pure purring smoothness and power.
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I'm coming into this thread a bit late, but what I've read doesn't surprise me. The compression drop resulting from the increased precombustion chamber insert volume, possibly combined with the 1.6 injection pattern in the 1.9 inserts, is enough to cause cold start smoking and rough running issues with a worn bottom end. With a new bottom end, these issues are likely to be less noticeable.
I compression tested my 1.9 over 1.6 setup a week ago and was not overly surprised with the results. A freshly rebuilt 1.9 head, and a very tired bottom end tested at 375 - 380 - 375 - 325 (psi). Hole number 4 has given me grief in the past, about 80,000 km ago I had issues with single cylinder misfire with cold starts and in a tear down discovered a broken ring on #4. I put the engine went back together with a different set of used pistons and new rings, and started and ran reliably up until the 1.9 head went on.
The bottom end has in the neighbourhood of .6 million km of abuse (most at the hands of the previous owner... ;-) )
The engine's out on the floor now, after all the abuse the car deserves a little more than a tired old bottom end can give.
Drew
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The head is fine and so is the engine, as you will be able to tell quite easily from listening to it run after it has warmed up. No knocks or bangs, just pure purring smoothness and power.
I had an '86 that sounded fantastic warmed up. It had compression of 400, 320, 320, *230*. Even with a valve leak on the valve you torqued into the piston, I doubt that warmed up you would hear the difference unless the leak was horrendous. Cold is a different matter. How about a compression/leakdown test as Andy2 mentioned, before and after head change? Just for science and to satisfy everyone's curiosity.
Andrew
doing the compression test tonight. Then I'll do another one when the 1.6 head is on it. Re: well worn bottom end: 70,000k is NOT well worn for a diesel block. They'll do 350,000k between rebuilds. Anyway putting up the vids now so you can all see this thing in action. It is interesting that despite what people say, my older rebuilt block and 1.9 head combination actually smoked LESS than Malone's set up with fresh rebuilt everything. From what I read in his posts, he got smoke all the time. I only get it when the engine is cold. Once it warms up, no more smoke.
Chris
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10-15 minutes to warmup? Why not use the coolant thermos idea? Or the hot wax coolant exchanger idea from the BMW? That would essentially cut down warmup times to around 1-2 minutes rather than putting an extra load on the glowplugs and reduce premature wear on them as well as the electrical system.
I am considering making a system to pump ALL the coolant out of the engine at shut-off. The only problem with this is oxidation. If the car was left too long rust might form inside the engine with is not good. A 2-3 gallon thermos (if i can ever find/make one...) in the trunk of the car would work quite well.
As the glowplugs warm up on a cold start, the hot coolant would flow through the head of the engine therefore decreasing the need for the high compression our engines came with originally (hurray for those of us who want to squeeze every last drop out of our diesels)
If the car sits for more than a day without being turned on, a hot coolant heater/circulator could heat the coolant in the thermos with a thermostat so it wouldn't run constantly, but keep the temp up which saves electricity.
Getting back to topic though--I'm really liking the additional info on the 1.9 head/ 1.6 block config. I need some head work done, and I am considering just putting on a whole new head. Thanks for sharing all of this info!
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Something is not right somewhere. Do a leakdown test while your doing the compressiopn test. Malones smokes more because hius compression is even lower due tot he deck modifications. IF your car takes 10 minutes to warm up witht his setup there IS a problem. I put a head on a guys 1,6 from washington about a month ago he had about 35'000kms on a complete bottomend new everythign adn I put a stock head on, his engine only misses for about 30 seconds.
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A 2-3 gallon thermos (if i can ever find/make one...) in the trunk of the car would work quite well.
You could use a Coleman Cooler in the trunk. But then, where would you put the BEER? :roll:
Andrew
hehe.. the beer would definitely be in my stomach while making the thermos.. 8)
to make the thermos i will need two ports and a double wall system (and a vacuum port to suck the air out in between) then a bit of insulation on the outside to increase efficiency
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Well here's the info you've all been waiting for (I think someone has been waiting, anyway?) First, the videos:
http://www.zippyvideos.com/7813284654216696/hpim0205/
http://www.zippyvideos.com/1612210594216916/hpim0206/
http://www.zippyvideos.com/4151987784218326/hpim0207/
http://www.zippyvideos.com/5063781964219506/hpim0209/
http://www.zippyvideos.com/7079859054219666/hpim0204/
http://www.zippyvideos.com/4347824434219816/hpim0211/
http://www.zippyvideos.com/1763340214220086/hpim0212/
I know there's a lot of them. I have a digital camera. Every time I stop it, it starts a new video. They're all really short. The last two are the performance of the engine after it has warmed up. The other ones are before warm up. Keep in mind this is an older engine. PO claimed rebuild, but I'm not sure about whether this is true. The cylinders have quite a big lip at the top and the pistons move around some. Still, it ran.
Next, compression numbers:
300, 300, 300, 320. Abysmal. Those are the numbers we got. Around 180 less than the engine needs to run properly. No wonder it smoked so much. I will post compression numbers from when the 1.6 head is put on it when I get the job done and Andy comes up again with his compression gauge. That should give a pretty accurate idea of how much compression is actually lost when a 1.9 head is put on a 1.6 engine.
Chris
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Interesting videos.. and the compression #s sure look low. Definitely lower than mine with a bad cam.
I have my gf's digital camera with me but need to find the battery charger. I will take videos of my cold start smoke.
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thats really interesting...
but, im still wondering about the warm factor.
does the car have a block heater? can you test it when its been on for a few hours to see if it smokes as bad?
i know the compression looks bad too, but i just wonder if its liveable...
i dont know much about rebuilding, but would the head gasket thickness being thinner help you?
LOVE the sound though, so deep and growly!
thanks!
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Thanks for the vids, Chris! That smoking problem is pretty nasty there when it's cold. But it's amazing how clean it gets when it warms up!
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I know the compression numbers are low,but you said it didn't smoke before.
Are you 100% sure the pump timing is dead on,even the cam timing.After watching the videos,it runs just like the timing is off one tooth.
I see cars all the time,that the customer did his own timing belt,and was off on the timing.When the timing is retarded,you will get smoke like that,and it runs bad until warmed up.Might be one thing to double check if you haven't ripped it apart yet.
If you feel the rings are shot,now is the time to do it.While it will probably need to be bored if you feel a ridge,you can usually get by with a quick deglaze and rering.Rings are cheap and easy to do,since you already have the head off.
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I forgot to ask; are these warm or cold compression #s?
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It was tested cold.As for pump timing hopefully chris can confirm that he got it right,I feel he did.We pulled the head off right after doing the test thats when we seen the massive ridge's on the Cyl's.Those pistons sure are sloppy but it should be interesting to see the comp numbers with the 1.6 head on.Also we checked piston potrusion and although the piston rocks around alot we got readings of around .030 thou.So his engine should of had a 1 notch on it not the 3 that was on it all along.He'll be putting the 1 notch on this time for obvious reasons so that will give us a bogus comparison(1.6vs1.9 head,kind of) as it will have a thinner HG on it this time and the 1.6 head.
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I know the compression numbers are low,but you said it didn't smoke before.
nope no smoke at all before. and it was running a timing belt that I put on myself (and an injection pump that I installed). It ran fine for 20,000km.
Are you 100% sure the pump timing is dead on,even the cam timing.After watching the videos,it runs just like the timing is off one tooth.
timing was done properly. I've put belts on these engines many times. Pump and crank were lined up, then cam pulley was installed after. I always check after I instal the cam pulley that the crank is at TDC still and the pump lock pin is centred, and these things were verified. It ran flawlessly once it warmed up. Perfectly smooth, no missing or smoking (see final two videos). When I get your rebuilt head I'll put that on and post some more videos so you can see the difference. It doesn't smoke like that usually. It is the 1.9 head that causes it. No idea why. Other people who have put 1.9 heads on 1.6 blocks have noticed the same thing (guy in germany 16vsauger mentioned this, also a guy in Ontario with a diesel engine in a scirocco said the same thing. It's not a mistake on my part or the condition of the engine that is causing it, it's the 1.9/1.6 head/engine combination.
I see cars all the time,that the customer did his own timing belt,and was off on the timing.When the timing is retarded,you will get smoke like that,and it runs bad until warmed up.Might be one thing to double check if you haven't ripped it apart yet.
It looks like it but believe me, I've done so many belts on these engines, I know how to put them on. That wasn't the problem. All I can say is, get yourself a 1.9 head (use the one I'm giving you) a 1.6 block, put them together and see for yourself. It will smoke and miss when it's cold.
If you feel the rings are shot,now is the time to do it.While it will probably need to be bored if you feel a ridge,you can usually get by with a quick deglaze and rering.Rings are cheap and easy to do,since you already have the head off.
Yeah I'm wondering about this. The cylinders don't seem round. Pistons move north-south, but not east-west. They move quite a bit. I am wondering if I am wasting time and money buffing and re-ringing an engine in this condition.
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thats exactly why no-one in germany wants to put a 1.9l head on a 1.6l engine :cry: but you could try to power the glow plugs a few minutes after starting the engine, if your glow plug ecu doesn't have that function.
do you want to use an intercooler?
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thats exactly why no-one in germany wants to put a 1.9l head on a 1.6l engine :cry: but you could try to power the glow plugs a few minutes after starting the engine, if your glow plug ecu doesn't have that function.
do you want to use an intercooler?
I might use one when I get a 1.6 head on it. I have another issue to deal with now in that the cylinders don't seem to be round. Block might need bored and fitted with oversized pistons. That means a rebuild, would cost around $2000 I think for the parts and machine shop work required. So that is another issue. I might try and pick up a rebuilt bottom end cheap and put it in instead. Oversize pistons are very expensive.
Weird thing is the car started when it was quite cold outside (lowest I've ever got it running at was -23, because that's as cold as it's ever been here since I've had the car) so there must still be some compression. I have to do another test with a 1.6 head.
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Oversize pistons are very expensive.
Fatmobile has a group buy going for $200. You probably wouldn't need any further machine work on your block beyond the rebore. $300 for rod, crank, int shaft brngs, gasket set, and rings. I come up with approx. $500 in parts to do the bottom end plus the cost of the bore. Are the machine shops in your area charging $1,500 for a rebore? Yikes. What am I missing?
Andrew
who is fatmobile and how do I get in touch with him regarding this group buy? There are machine shops around here that could do the machining work I need. Probably would have to get the crank checked to see if it needs machining also. I'll have to look into this. The bottom end definately needs rebuilding and if it will cost less than a grand then I should probably just do it. I have the head off anyway so now is a great time to get it all done and be back on the road with a fresh engine.
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I am wondering what is wrong here because i have seen and heard a cold start with your combination(1.9 head-1.6 bottom) and it did not smoke even a little bit. O if your wondering whos car that was it was Dr.D's (went like snot to) :)
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I am wondering what is wrong here because i have seen and heard a cold start with your combination(1.9 head-1.6 bottom) and it did not smoke even a little bit. O if your wondering whos car that was it was Dr.D's (went like snot to) :)
I find it interesting that, despite Dr. Diesel being in the top 10 poster list, he has yet to make a single contribution to the 1.6/1.9 discussion. He is one of the few known who have tried the 1.6/1.9 combination so it'd be nice if he could share his experience. :)
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I just ran some compression ratio calculations for a 1.6 block with a 1.9 head and headgasket and wanted to share the results:
Assuming that 25% of the TDC volume is below the head deck on both the stock 1.6 and 1.9 motors, I come up with a compression ratio of 19.7:1 for it.
Since I'm not sure exactly sure how much % of TDC volume is below the head deck on the stock motors, I ran a sensitivity analysis, varying the % between 0%-50%, and found that the 1.6 block/1.9 head and headgasket varied as a result in the range of 18.9:1 - 20.7:1.
If we had more data on where the volume was in the combustion chambers, I could do a more accurate calculation.
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So did you get the head on yet ? How does she run ?
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i would not be afraid of putting more timing to it. i have my pump notch about 1/8" past mount notch all the time no trouble and i had the dreaded head gasket blow .we took about .015 off to get it flat. and the pistons look nice.expecialy since for over 3 years i use veg oil and gas from the time it is always above 30 deg till below 30 at night.
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I'm interested in this project. 'cause I've got a 1.6 hydro engine sitting in my stash o' stuff pile... I found this in a thread about coatings :
"Much more expensive than other piston/combustion chamber coatings but if it performs as advertised it would be easily worth the $300 cost. It might allow you to run an 18:1 compression motor and still have it start at -25ºC... Very Happy" :idea:
As someone that grew up driving '30s D4 cats( no , I'm NOT that old ,,we was jus po folks :( ) w 15-1 compresion ratios I know all about hard starting on cold mornings and I'm reminded that in one of Jake's sae papers that the factory engr's said them selves that the optimum compression for a HI output turbo motor was 18-1 ,,,,, aside from cold start problems....... :D
I think it would be interesting to actually take a 1.6 block and head , 1.9 head and CC them and the we'd KNOW exactly what we got here........ anybody got a "extra" 1.9 head to send to Kali ??? Kenetic Analisys is on my way home every nite.... that's right down the ally from Megacycle cams in san rafael 8) Kenny let me use his shop to port my head for the frankenbunny when I built my first motor....... :wink:
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Just an update on the 1.9L head he had on his car.I have hauled it apart,and there was one bent valve,and one bad valve seat.Head looked clean (was supposed to have been rebuilt recently).There were no obvious signs of impact on the bent valve,so I don't think he did it when he dropped the head on.These problems,combined with worn rings\cylinders are probably what made the cold start smoke so bad.
I rebuilt a 1.6L TD head for him,and it ran fine after it was installed.
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just to bring this thread back, i found this link and thought id share
http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html
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I don't know what I did different in my Caddy Mk1 but is was also a Frankenstein engine with a 1.6 engineblock, 1.6 headgasket (Victor Reinz) 1.9 cylinderhead.
It was smoking for a couple of seconds than it was ok, the parts that I used were worn and the engine broke. I sold the Caddy with an 1600 N/A.
I bought a rabbit and now I'm building up a 1.6td engineblock with a new 1.9 cilinderhead and a fuelpump with 10mm plunger and 1900TD camplate, new 1600 GTD nozzles with 170bar opening pressure, KKK K24, Custom intake
I got the engineblock back from my uncle with new bearings, pistons. I'm now working on the fuelpump.
Next step is the cilinderhead. I can keep you posted on my experiences with the 1.6 / 1.9 combo.