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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Gizmoman on May 05, 2013, 07:55:43 am
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OK, It's Saturday morning. Brand new KS head (ported). I have my new one hole metal head gasket all the way from England, Have my ARP studs installed following the instructions meticulously, and was on my last pass with the dial torque wrench set to 125 lbs - CRACK! What the hell was that? I went over the studs one more time to see if one had snapped - all good. Then it dawned on me that I had not put the pistons into a "safe zone" before setting the head on. Visions of one of the open valves punching through a piston almost made me puke my morning coffee.
Oh well, I slowly un-tourqued the head doing the sequence in reverse and removed the head - everything looked fine. Hmm, maybe it was just friction between a nut and washer deciding to let loose and I was just being overly cautious. After rotating the crank to put all four pistons at the half way point in the barrels, I put the head back on and went through the sequence again.
Now that the head was nice and tight I figured I'd set the cam to TDC on #1 - I couldn't rotate it. I glanced down the cam and noticed that the #4 exhaust lifter was wobbling as I tried to rotate the cam. Looking closer it was obvious that I had snapped the top clean off. I'll post pictures as soon as I figure out what is going on with my Picassa (it upgraded automatically and now it doesn't work properly).
Anyway, I installed a used lifter out of the old head - it fit fine and I'm back in business (I hope). I didn't see any damage to the valves or the pistons but then I didn't really inspect it that close as I wasn't aware of the cause till I had already put the head back on and torqued it down.
So, should I just keep assembling or would you pull the head and the valve and check it out? Obviously I don't want to do that but I also don't want to find after I installed it in the van that I have no compression on #4.
I spoze I could make a fitting and charge #4 with compressed air and see if it is much different from 1, 2 and 3?
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I would pull that valve and check it and if it's at all bent, replace it and replace the valve guide if it's at all bent.
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I would pull that valve and check it and if it's at all bent, replace it and replace the valve guide if it's at all bent.
Yeah, I was figuring the same but geeze - I really would like to move this along.
Here's a shot of the lifter.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zThzF7bYQGE/UYaMfaPlt4I/AAAAAAAABrw/_KTGz4hxSMU/s720/DSC00460.JPG)
I'm thinking the load would have been extremely straight on so the only way it would have bent the valve would be if it were a crooked load on the valve itself. The lifter is guided as well. The load became crooked at the face of the lifter (which is not nearly as strong being so thin) due to the cam lobe off-set - so that's where it gave in.
Here's a shot of the assembly - not even a mark on the piston.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fKV3rELVOso/UYaMfjpkUsI/AAAAAAAABr0/RQQlxMLfARU/s720/DSC00457.JPG)
Am I just making excuses?
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I would pull the valve and check it. That so easy to do at this point that it would be stupid not to. The valves on the these motors are pretty much perpendicular to the piston, so they will take a lot of abuse w/o looking damaged. You will need to put an dial indicator on the valve face where it touches the seat to be sure if its straight or not. Either way I would inspect the guide, but I would not replace it unless you are sure that it is damaged. The new guide will not be concentric with the seat and you will need to get it touched up if you change the guide.
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OK - thanks guys. I guess there's no sense in adding another "stupid" to the tree I already have ;D
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after squishing a valve, its COMMON to have the engine run afterwards, then shortly after that, drop the head off the valve, and destroy the engine..
my grandpas old diesel squished the #1 exhaust valve, and it broke the head, block, piston, squished the rod, but the crank was fine..
anyways, about 2 years later, i found the head to that valve.. it had lodged its self in the water pump!!
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Yep. I'd never run a valve that had pressure on it that I hadn't examined the hell out of.
I dunno if it's required on these OHC hyd lifters, but I usually prelude mine like one does for old OHV stuff.
And I wouldn't use a used one cheap as they are and prone to noise as they are.
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Yep. I'd never run a valve that had pressure on it that I hadn't examined the hell out of.
I dunno if it's required on these OHC hyd lifters, but I usually prelude mine like one does for old OHV stuff.
And I wouldn't use a used one cheap as they are and prone to noise as they are.
they really dont even prime that much.. i soak them over night, but they still clatter like a bag of hammers when i fire it the first time, until it sees some RPM and some hot oil..
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I soak em too, they don't suck up oil like an old V8 lifter, yeah.
Just seemed like a good idea.
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I soak em too, they don't suck up oil like an old V8 lifter, yeah.
Just seemed like a good idea.
i HAVE installed lifters dry before (un-primed, but lubed the button, sides, and face)
sounds the exact same, for just as long..
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In order to prime the lash adjusters you need to have them in oil and pump the plunger up and down until it expels the air and gets solid otherwise you are just lubing the outside.
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OK,
I checked the run-out with the valve still in the head. Its .000175" out which is as near to perfect as it could get (yes, that's the correct number of zeros).
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-z1Ell1tMr9w/UYaxbc7c3xI/AAAAAAAABtY/glt-e0mlHac/s720/DSC00462.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jOxsv1_y_Ho/UYaxbE1MM3I/AAAAAAAABtQ/KfKRLOgC6GI/s720/DSC00463.JPG)
I may get a new lifter but with the bad luck I've had getting parts for this engine - it seems like a crap shoot.
The lifter I am putting back in has very few miles on it so I'm might just proceed.
They were in the brand new KS head and if it were that critical, I would think that Klobenschmidt would have filled them.
Do you suggest I remove each one and pump it up?
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I was not in a hurry, so I let my new lifters sit inverted with ATF in them up to the rim... took over a week for the ATF to creep down into the bodies. I would add enough that the ATF would eventually start draining out the slot.
The ones I got from Autohaus don't have much give when new, to "pump them up". :-\
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OK, "borrowed" a small cup from the kitchen and filled it with clean oil, dropped a lifter into it and pumped it it till no bubbles came out.
Now I'm going to drop it back into the head and do the remaining seven. My question is, while I am messing with the rebuild, turning the crank (and cam), flipping the assembly over on the stand, etc., where is this oil going to go? As the engine won't be running for possibly four more weeks will the oil just drain out?
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Got me, I don't remember how they are designed.
Hyd lifters in an old domestic v8 or such will stay pumped up
for awhile, and I've seen them on stock motors with so little lift
from lack of oil that they wouldn't start on dry fresh motor.
But they are a different animal, and we pre-lube them by
presurizing the oiling system before starting the first time.
Anything that is metal and moves that I'm assembling
I'm going to lube it myself. I'm also a fan of pre-lubing
fresh motors, in addition to assembly lube. A lot of
little stuff like this might be, on these motors, the difference
between one that lives for 350k and one that lives for 500K,
neither of which most people will ever see, even us.
Even me since I don't drive 100K/year anymore.
It's the principle of the thing though.
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Agreed.
I plan on driving the pump pre-start as I have read on here several times.
As you can see in the photos, I have everything lubed up well.
All is back together and torqued to 125 - man that's tight! Hopefully the valve is fine. If the parts were local and I knew exactly what I was getting BEFORE I bought it, I might buy a new lifter and valve. As it is I am collecting quite a pile of useless bits.
Paper exhaust gaskets(no thanks)
Mains that are one step under size
Timing belt that has too many teeth
Timing tensioner that isn't as wide as it should be or have the correct off-set to line up.
11 mm head bolts
Getting a KS lifter, a KS exhaust valve and an 8 mm seal could be a tough find from where I sit. All could be for no reason - just to reduce worry. The valve shows no damage based on the run-out numbers. It also slides real smooth in the guide.
Heck, I can't find that goofy domed shaped nut that goes on the back bolt on the IP. Jim Ellis has one and it will run me 16 bucks by the time it gets here!. I'm holding off figuring it will show up (I know I saw it somewhere).
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...I don't mean to threadjack, but am just completing a headgasket job on a 1.9 N/A in the car and this thread has me concerned. When I was re-installing the head over the hand tightened ARP studs, I had the cam locked with the timing plate at number 1 cylinder TDC. The pistons were still at number 1 cylinder TDC as well.
Am I OK with respect to potential valve interference with the pistons?
The reason I ask is that when torqueing the third step to 125 I twisted off the 3/8" socket extension that's 3" long (Chinese cheap stuff). I then went to 1/2" high quality everywhere on the torque rig and all was fine. Applying that last torque to 125 was a bit scary - - you're right, that's a **** of a lot of force!
I used hylomar spray on a two-hole gasket, replacing what was in there originally; that's some sticky stuff.
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I like to have the cam caps loosened when installing the head. My second choice is to put the pistons mid bore. My third choice is to have it at TDC for #1 and keep the bar in the end of the cam. All of those scenarios work.
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OK,
I checked the run-out with the valve still in the head. Its .000175" out which is as near to perfect as it could get (yes, that's the correct number of zeros).
Actually that is NOT the correct number of "0"s. You can't measure 175 millionths of an inch with a test indicator like that one. Your resolution is only .0005"
In addition to that the slop in a new guide with the new valve up is several thousandths of an inch. Just the clearance taken up by the oil is more than 2 "tenths" .0002".
To do this in a meaningful way you need to have the valve in a V block or better yet a pair of V blocks with a stop and then rotate the valve with the indicator on the face.
Or you could chuck it up in a lathe with an 8mm/5/16" collet and run the indicator on the face. Otherwise you can't be sure of what you have. The valve stem may be bent inside the guide and the head may still look true.
Its not likely hurt, but with the IDI propensity for losing valve heads, I would be SURE or replace the valve. I will post you a pic of the aftermath tomorrow.
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...I don't mean to threadjack, but am just completing a headgasket job on a 1.9 N/A in the car and this thread has me concerned. When I was re-installing the head over the hand tightened ARP studs, I had the cam locked with the timing plate at number 1 cylinder TDC. The pistons were still at number 1 cylinder TDC as well.
Am I OK with respect to potential valve interference with the pistons?
Yeah, it should be ok.
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OK,
I checked the run-out with the valve still in the head. Its .000175" out which is as near to perfect as it could get (yes, that's the correct number of zeros).
Actually that is NOT the correct number of "0"s. You can't measure 175 millionths of an inch with a test indicator like that one. Your resolution is only .0005"
In addition to that the slop in a new guide with the new valve up is several thousandths of an inch. Just the clearance taken up by the oil is more than 2 "tenths" .0002".
To do this in a meaningful way you need to have the valve in a V block or better yet a pair of V blocks with a stop and then rotate the valve with the indicator on the face.
Or you could chuck it up in a lathe with an 8mm/5/16" collet and run the indicator on the face. Otherwise you can't be sure of what you have. The valve stem may be bent inside the guide and the head may still look true.
Its not likely hurt, but with the IDI propensity for losing valve heads, I would be SURE or replace the valve. I will post you a pic of the aftermath tomorrow.
All good points and you are correct on the math - my mistake. The reading in the photo is the high spot from zero. Is this too much?
I indicated the seat as that should be the truest portion of the valve. I also turned it very gently with my fingertip as it rested against the seal. I know this is not as perfect as could be but I was very diligent in the way I did it and feel confident in the results. I did it many times and all readings were the same.
Pulling the valve would mean I'd need to find a single 8 mm seal. Had the reading been higher, I would have pulled it.
After all is said, there's no point in "checking" the valve past what I have done unless I were replacing it and as I stated before, I doubt I will unless you tell me that the reading on the dial is too much run-out. It seems to me that if the valve stem were bent , it would have felt even a slight bit sticky as I slid and turned it in the guide - it was smooth as silk.
I know what a piston would look like if the head popped off and I know I'm gambling. If I felt 100% confident I could find a valve that was exactly like the brand new KS valve that is in there, I'd buy it.
As I stated earlier, buying parts for this has really been a nightmare. Every site wants to have a year, and model - all I can do is guess. Then when they send the wrong part I've got no leg to stand on because I don't have any solid info. For instance, the only one hole gasket I could find was in England and it ended up costing 116 bucks (56 was VAT) and I had to settle for a brand I'd never heard of.
I am loosing patience, but certainly don't want to build a self-destructing motor. If you know where I can get a single KS exhaust valve with an 8 mm stem, please let me know.
Thanks.
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Might consider having a speed shop/machine shop with a good rep check that valve.
I know it blows but it really is better safe than sorry in this case.
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...I don't mean to threadjack, but am just completing a headgasket job on a 1.9 N/A in the car and this thread has me concerned. When I was re-installing the head over the hand tightened ARP studs, I had the cam locked with the timing plate at number 1 cylinder TDC. The pistons were still at number 1 cylinder TDC as well.
Am I OK with respect to potential valve interference with the pistons?
Official VW procedure is rotate the pistons back from TDC to where they're all at mid bore, then reset timing after head installation. I think the reason is because it you can snag the valves on one of the exposed pistons while trying to position the head but it shouldn't hurt anything if you did.
As far as the original question... That's not really a good way to check it, you need an actual surface that's flawlessly flat. But I don't think what happened is as bad as snapping a belt. The latter involves engine rotation so you have a lot of force because the engine rotating parts have a lot of mass and are moving at a high velocity.
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Thanks for all the responses - I really do appreciate every one.
After a rough night pondering I am going to stop being so bullheaded and just take everyone's advice. The measurement I took shows .00175 TIR (I did have too many zeros). The indicator has a resolution of .0005 (each line). TIR was 3 and 1/2 lines. I figure .0005 + .0005 + .0005 + .00025 = .00175 - this is very likely bent. I have a lathe and a mill but I am no machinist and am not used to reading this tiny gauge. If I am wrong in how I am figuring this, please let me know - we never stop learning.
While the WAY I took it is not the best, I was doing the actual measuring and am confident in the results - at least enough to show that I should pull it and I will. After that I can check it properly as has been suggested. I have a small V-block and I may even have the correct collet.
The good news is that I went the expense of ARP studs which I believe can be torqued many times without needing to be replaced. I also didn't use any sealer on the gasket but chose to wipe both surfaces down with lacquer thinner to remove all traces of oil.
The hunt is on for one KS exhaust valve with an 8 mm stem, a single 8 mm seal and a KS lifter. If anyone has links to these parts (or part numbers) it would be greatly appreciated.
I found this http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Number/Exhaust-Valve-(8-mm-Stem)-__048109611B_INT_FC162DCB.aspx (http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Number/Exhaust-Valve-(8-mm-Stem)-__048109611B_INT_FC162DCB.aspx)
Can anyone tell me if this is the correct part number? I only have access to Parts Base.org and for some reason, valves or lifters aren't in their database.
Thanks again everyone, I'll keep you posted.
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Are you planning on getting a new headgasket?
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The hydro lifters are all the same and available from anyone who sells VW parts. Get a quality brand and you're all set on that. I'm a little surprised that your new AAZ head came with 8mm valves. The newer AAZ engines came with 7mm valves so I would expect a new head to come with the newer parts. Anyway, the 8mm valve stem seals are also readily available pretty much anywhere.
They're proud of that valve...
http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/products/Volkswagen-VW//EuroVan/Exhaust-valve/1995/5135012/074109611.html
The head gasket has now been compressed and should be replaced. I suppose since you already have the ARP studs, trying it to see if it leaks will probably happen right off and only cost you labor. That said, it's a fair bit of labor to replace and there is some chance of failure on the road with resulstant overheating, etc, etc...
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See, if you'da gona two notch...
;D I'm kidding I'm kidding.
Stay the course man, I know it's a screaming bummer but it'll work out
and the little motor will serve you for ages when all is done.
http://www.1stvwparts.com those guys are in the NW and were great on some dealer-only parts I needed
recently, guy named Zeb.
I'm 90% sure this is your lifter, but I'm not awake yet..
https://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=cmcks145ynx152zoysi4apjw&partnumber=034%20109%20309%20AD (https://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=cmcks145ynx152zoysi4apjw&partnumber=034%20109%20309%20AD)
They have the valve cheap, but they aren't German, 1stvw has it for $37..
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They're proud of that valve...
http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/products/Volkswagen-VW//EuroVan/Exhaust-valve/1995/5135012/074109611.html
Proud of the valve??!!
They are psychotic. $63 should be the price of 1/2 a dozen valves. I hope nobody here is actually buying parts there.
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1996/volkswagen/golf/engine_mechanical/exhaust_valve.html
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Think that's bad, go buy Porsche valves. Or VariocamII lifters for a late M96 motor..
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Wow - Thanks everyone for the links, advice and encouragement. I really thought the gasket would be fine as I really cleaned the deck and head good and at 125 lbs per stud it's hard to believe it could compress (or give) any more. That thing was spendy as well and I had to get it from England and pay 50+ VAT. Oh well.
I'll check the valves again when I get the "bent" one out but I know I used 8 mm seals after I ported it. Maybe it's a blessing in disguise and the valves are 7 mm and I put the wrong seals in ;D
Any chance I could use one of the the valves from my old head (assuming they are 8 mm). New or used, do I need to "seat" the replacement valve with lapping compound? I spoze with the Parts Geek valve - why use used - besides, they know me by name now ;D
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Guys,
I found a Victor Reins one hole Metal Head Gasket part number 028103383BP, it says its for an AHU engine.
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=yyju1dityuemczj1jfxzkw45&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1359996@JETTA%20TDI&year=1998&cid=20@Engine%20Parts,%20Seals%20%26%20Gaskets&gid=5412@Cylinder%20Head%20Gasket (http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=yyju1dityuemczj1jfxzkw45&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1359996@JETTA%20TDI&year=1998&cid=20@Engine%20Parts,%20Seals%20%26%20Gaskets&gid=5412@Cylinder%20Head%20Gasket)
The price is awesome but I'm not sure if it will fit my AAZ - can anyone let me know?
They also have a great price on an exhaust valve but it's a 7 mm stem and thats all they list. This really has me thingking that I may have put 8 mm seals on my 7 mm valves (as suggested by libby).
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sadly no, they don't have the precup resting spots so it won't work for the aaz. I listed part #s in the FAQ section to the aaz gaskets and you can search. The cheapest route should be going to canada and having one of the guys ship you down one. Autohaus only sells the 2 and 3 notch for the aaz.
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OK,
I pulled he valve stem seal and I think buying those fancy pliers just paid off - it looks good as new after I got it off.
Then I pulled the potentially damaged valve and checked it as recommended by Toby and a few others.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Gu6qJhVPNSM/UYmhXcahIaI/AAAAAAAABt0/TgqKvXl6A1c/s720/DSC00467.JPG)
- woohoo! - it's dead on "0" as I turn it in the V-block against the stop. I don't think I'll replace it at all.
By the way libby, you were right, the valves stems are 7mm and so were the seals I installed after the porting - don't know what I was thinking.
All I need now is a new one hole HG and a lifter.
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sadly no, they don't have the precup resting spots so it won't work for the aaz. I listed part #s in the FAQ section to the aaz gaskets and you can search. The cheapest route should be going to canada and having one of the guys ship you down one. Autohaus only sells the 2 and 3 notch for the aaz.
I checked out your list in the sticky - very nice sir. I am now at least able to search with real data - thanks - should have checked it before.
Another nice chap (BYM) has offered to look in the Northern territory for me and report back.
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G-man, just for gits and shiggles put a stop in your v-block so that the edge of the v-block is midway in the shaft of the valve and half of the valve is hanging over and measure the runout one more time.
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G-man, just for gits and shiggles put a stop in your v-block so that the edge of the v-block is midway in the shaft of the valve and half of the valve is hanging over and measure the runout one more time.
Right, I'll do that - I also may have a 1/4" R8 collet I'll chuck into the mill - hopefully it will clamp the 7 mm stem. I can stick it out various distances and check it that way as well.
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I actually had a 9/32nds collet which fit the 7 mm stem nicely. The .005 resolution indicator moved 3 lines on the face and 1-1/2 lines on the seat (odd). I believe that's .0015/.00075 respectively.
I also did the V-block test as suggested - placing a stop inside the V which put the stem hanging halfway off the block edge. I measured again. Face was .00075 and seat was .0005. Seems I need to change the old spindle bearings on the mill.
So, for a "standard" I pulled another exhaust valve and did the same V-block test. The results are identical to the valve that was loaded. Apparently KS feels these numbers are within spec so I'm going to run the valve.
Just to point out, when the lifter broke I was on the last leg approaching the 125 ft/lbs on #8 in the sequence (right over that valve). My climb to the 125 was in 50 lb increments. Also, the cam lobe was not at full lift or I would have felt it when installing the head.
Obviously I loaded the valve stem heavily, but it was a very gradual and perpendicular load (guided lifter and guided stem). The only un-guided, off-center load was the lifter surface to the partially rotated cam lobe - SNAP.
I suppose there could be some weird molecular things going on onside that valve stem which may lead to the head popping off. But I think that it would show some sign of deviation from the other valve I checked - I found none.