VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Snowyroads on April 28, 2013, 07:50:16 pm
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Okay guys, Hello again!
So its nice out and i've been dicking around with my car here and there through the winter. See this if your unaware of my progress http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg301059#msg301059
Assume that i am starting with a brand new motor. Assembled by a 12 year old. I have almost done everything over and over again. Probably timed the IP 5 or 6 times now.
The motor is finally firing up. I've drivin the car around the parking lot a couple times. Only in first.
Its as though the combustion of the fuel offers no power
Engine timing is correct. IP is back at about .88mm. New bosch duraterms. K&N filter. New fuel filter.
(Only two variables left are super fresh fuel and a rebuilt IP)
Hope my ishy cell phone picture and video show you guys something.
The idle speed screw needs to be turned waayy in to keep the motor running. Its got a lovely humm to it. Id say the slowest it will stay alive with that little mod is about 1400 rpm.
"drunkie kyle says no more for tonight" Ill get back to you'all later
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Assume that i am starting with a brand new motor. Assembled by a 12 year old. I have almost done everything over and over again. Probably timed the IP 5 or 6 times now.
Does this mean we are to assume it is wrongly put together? I am unsure lol.
I have run these beasts on 7 year old fuel, and even then it ran ok and still did the average 0-60 at about 20-21 seconds for a bone stock engine.
The combustion of your fuel likely offers no power because you have your timing set WAY BACK AT 0.88mm, and that is wayyy low. It was low for a zero mile engine, and extremely low for a (what I assume) to be an old high mileage engine. I would bump that timing to at least 0.95mm, and try again. It is sluggish because you are injecting the fuel so late that some of the explosion is happening too late in the cranks rotation.
BTW, there are no videos or pictures lol.
Not drunk Jeremy says, your sentences still make sense.. drrriinnnkkk more beer :) lol
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I was thinking the same thing, this engine is retarded. Bump that pump to the engine and see if the idle picks up and then back out the adjustment screw. You may also need a bit more fuel by way of the other adjustment screw called the power screw. See the stickies for pics of the pump.
If you can type better than CRSMP5 then you still need fluid in your glass. He sets the standard here for most confusing text to read and make sense of. But he has justification for that. So we just give him slack. Or more beer whichever improves performance.
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50% of the time, low power = sucking air.
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pfft sobriety, theres always tomorrow to quit drinking 8)
So guys. I am damn near ready to send in my pump to have it re-sealed. I am almost certain that it is the problem.
Here is the video. I can also post another video of about 8 months ago with the pump timing 180 out..
I'm still convinced its correct now. The keyway in the IP pulley is definitely at 4 and not 10 but whatever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQsiF0FQL3I (also, my tattoo is awesome, right?? chocolate milk cow)
so i've been all over the board with IP timing. Too advanced, back to .9 and so on. Everything yields me the same results which is why im now convinced the pump is sucking in air. Lots of cranking (even with injector lines cracked till fuel spilling). After several tries, a bit of gurgles. And when it does fire, it needs to be at a pretty high rate of speed to keep it going. I did drive the car like this about 10 miles last fall and DAMN that was scary.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i181/smoldt88/IMG_20130428_143224_zps196da1a3.jpg) (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/smoldt88/media/IMG_20130428_143224_zps196da1a3.jpg.html)
See how far in i have to put the minimum fuel screw to keep it alive??
So the previous owner gave me another 1.5d pump with my car and I got a 1.6TD pump sitting around too but both have sat for years without ATF or some other saver fluid in them so im not sure if they're any better.
I may be parking this car in june for up to a year when i move back out to seattle. Unfortunately, a drunk night left me without a garage or my girlfriend for a couple years ;D
This is the car last fall with pump timed 180 out. Really easy to start, but absolutely no power and i couldn't get above 35mph. Still slightly better than now.. pushing about 8mph currently
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHqVE4TEcVo
Thanks again guys
EDIT: also sorry 8v. I did have my pump at 1.15 like the yellow dot specs said but it still ran the exact same. The cold start lever does nothing now and it did nothing before. Not like my 91 1.6na that upped the revvs a bit. and that damned Ujoint 1/4" ratchet didn't help at all so every time i gotta re do the timing, the alt and bracket gotta come off. im getting real good at it :D
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I suspect that you have stuck vanes in the supply pump. The easy way to test this is to add an electric lift pump and see if things stabilize. If you do not see bubbles coming down the once clear plastic supply pipe, it is not too likely that you are sucking air. If the supply pump is working you will see fuel leaking anywhere there is a problem. Except for the shaft seal. It is the only place that is not under positive pressure in a good pump. Make sure that you have the IN and OUT banjo bolts in the correct spots. I would try pulling the return line off the pump to see if you have any fuel coming out with the motor running. I suspect that you will not see any.
If it is a supply pump issue, I suspect that you will need to have someone dis assemble the pump and clean out the muck. You might try changing the shaft seal, just in case. The seal can be done in the car.
Oh, and call your sponsor!
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Also, If this motor has BRAND NEW rings you may be running on its pre break in blowby. That will make for all kinds of weird running. The idle will go way up as the blowby add extra fuel, so you turn the idle down and then the the motor rattles and dies as the blowby decrease with RPMs. Be sure to disconnect the vent hose when you first start a motor with a new set of rings. They can run away on you if you have a lot of initial blowby. Not a pretty sight. I have seen this happen up to 200 miles after initial start up.
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look at the throttle shaft position, wtf?
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time it to 1mm, maybe a little higher..
crank the fuel screw up
maybe someone messed with the throttle arm location?
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look at the throttle shaft position, wtf?
maybe someone messed with the throttle arm location?
Didn't catch it before.. definitely!
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HOLY SHIZZZZ!!!!!!
yea, someone messed with this pump for sure..
so, it needs the throttle arm re-set, then the max-fuel screw set, then the idle set once everything is dialed back in..
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i181/smoldt88/IMG_20130428_143224_zps196da1a3.jpg) (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/smoldt88/media/IMG_20130428_143224_zps196da1a3.jpg.html)
i would just turn the max fuel screw all the way in, against the stop collar, then make your idle adjustments from there, AFTER you move your throttle arm ahead 2-3 splines..
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Before you mess with the pump check to make sure you have fuel coming out of the OUT banjo fitting with the engine running. If not, no amount of flow screw/throttle arm repositioning are going to help you. In fact they will likely make a bigger trap. If you do have fuel exiting the OUT fitting then the other stuff will probably get you going.
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UPDATE!!!! I swapped out the IP for a spare that the PO gave me with the car.
Timed the engine to 1mm and im off and running! The diesel must be disgusting cause the white/grey smoke coming out the back is crazy!
The smoke.. oh god its bad. What are my options here? advance the timing? try the block heater first? The coolant (straight water) has a bunch of black crap. Im still wondering if the head gasket is bad. I cleaned out the overflow bottle but im sure some of the stuff is from the block.
Well, i have to adjust the shift linkage so i dont have to duck under the reverse gate to get into 1st. And definitely bleed the brake lines again.
At least she fires up after 1 glow plug cycle! that's a start
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i shouldn't have to say this but, don't run straight water. the black could be fe2o3 - black iron oxide, aka rust formed in an oxygen poor environment.
Flush it and refill with 50:50 water and green stuff. or premixed green stuff. or, heck, purple, pink, red, dexcool if you wanna. just not straight water.
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The water is not a long term thing. Just had some lying around ;) But i know that a coolant mixture will be healthier for the system all together.
So im beginning to wonder if my head gasket is indeed bad. Or that this new pump may be a "yellow dot" pump and would rather be advanced to 1.17mm. The ignition timing is acting retarded if i may be so bold to say so. Or my hg is bad.. There is soo much smoke and it reeks of unburnt diesel. The diesel is old in the tank but the same smokey result happened out of the bottle i had.
look at these results. The 3rd party shot is at idle. The other 2 in the car are with some pedal. I was unable to drive long enough yesterday to get up to temp but i dont think it'd be that much better.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i181/smoldt88/F0024_zps58ea1c3d.jpg) (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/smoldt88/media/F0024_zps58ea1c3d.jpg.html)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i181/smoldt88/F0023_zps06009a1a.jpg) (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/smoldt88/media/F0023_zps06009a1a.jpg.html)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i181/smoldt88/F0025_zps80bed4e6.jpg) (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/smoldt88/media/F0025_zps80bed4e6.jpg.html)
ill post the phone video if i can figure out this photo bucket mobile stuffs
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Well that definitely ain't right.
If it's the HG then you almost certainly will have some pressure in the cooling system as that doesn't look like oil smoke. Easy to test - before starting the car with the engine stone cold check if there is any pressure under the cap, doesn't matter if there is a little, the important thing is to equalize with outside. Screw the cap back on and fire the engine. Let it idle for about 5 mins and check for pressure again. There should be virtually none. If you have a bubbling coolant tank or a lot of pressure you've found your problem for free!
If the cooling system passes the test then I'd advance the pump. That's free but not as easy.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
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Oh yeah - does the cold start handle have any effect?
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
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That looks like retarded timing to me.
From the picture it is not pulsed so it can't be a broken ring.
I'd not worry about head gaskets leaking water into the cylinders, unless its leaking into all of them, which is unlikely.
Seals in the pump only serve to make starting hard, not much if at all when running. Slacken fuel lines at the injectors and check that the pulse of fuel on #1 coincides with cam lobes skywards and just before TDC.
Partner turning on stareter whilst staring at slightly raised fuel line @#1 will be observable...
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Is the cam timing correct?
Steve.
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The cold start is doing something but the engine runs better without it. Ill check the coolant bottle tonight, thanks!
I'm thinking the timing might be low too.
And the engine is timed properly, per Vince waldons DIY.
I'm banking on the hg right now :/
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If the gasket is blown, then water will pressurize before it actually gets warm.
For a duff gasket to be bad enough to affect compression enough to prevent/reduce combustion, then coolant pipes will split in seconds.
The diesel pulse is the best way to determine injection in the correct ball park.
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If Cold start cable makes it worse of a runner I would say over timed. Generally it helps with a retarded timing cause it bumps it up by a few degrees. If as you say makes it run worse I would say too much into it and roll the IP to the front while running an see what it does smoke wise.
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Timing advance lever did work to smooth out idle. The advance is working as it should. I left it pulled for the video.
Let the car idle and the coolant bottle was hardly pressurized at all. It gave me a tiny hiss. Say 1-2 psi. The engine did not get warm enough to cycle the thermostat so i dont know how much steam could have been produced. But it had been idling for about 5 minutes. No cloudiness in the bottle. The water still has a bit of black crap and oily residue floating on the surface.
And i still dont know how you all advance the timing while running! I tried what one of our members suggested with a 1/4 socket and u-joint head with the 13mm but i can not ever get that bottom pulley mount bolt! Every time i time this engine (thinkin like 6-8 times now) I have to remove alt, bracket, pulleys, cam cover. if i could just get to that bolt, i could play with the timing in 10 not 1h.
The video:
http://s72.photobucket.com/user/smoldt88/media/DSCF0026_zps90718db0.mp4.html
Thanks again for your help!
I will drive this thing to work in 3 months.. I will
Also, Tell me i'm not sitting on a pot of gold here. I have the TD set up from the 83. When i get this thing up and going, i may just put the turbo back on. Think its still okay or should i send it away to be rebuilt? 190k on the 83 rabbit td
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i181/smoldt88/head_zps5fc9d5d8.jpg) (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/smoldt88/media/head_zps5fc9d5d8.jpg.html)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i181/smoldt88/DSF0022_zps7b0645dc.jpg) (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/smoldt88/media/DSF0022_zps7b0645dc.jpg.html)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i181/smoldt88/DSF0023_zps75854330.jpg) (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/smoldt88/media/DSF0023_zps75854330.jpg.html)
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Let the car idle and the coolant bottle was hardly pressurized at all. It gave me a tiny hiss. Say 1-2 psi. The engine did not get warm enough to cycle the thermostat so i dont know how much steam could have been produced. But it had been idling for about 5 minutes. No cloudiness in the bottle. The water still has a bit of black crap and oily residue floating on the surface.
May not mean a whole lot unless you know the system seal well enough to pressurize at all.
Just to confirm...You have new nozzles, heat shields, and verified no compression leaks around any injector?
for oily coolant, add half a box of Cascade dishwasher powder, run to full operating temperature, then drain. This is what we do with the fullsize diesels when thee blow the oil cooler, and it seems to work well. they hold about 7 gal of coolant, so you can probably reduce the dose quite a bit. You do have to get it hot though, blocking the radiator with cardboard can help.
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The slight pressurizing sounds about right for an intact gasket.
If the low pressure is due to pipework leaks, then you will have to be loosing significant water over the 5 minutes.
If you are not, then any cylinder to water leak is small, and will have no bearing on the way engine is running.
Leaks around injectors, although not particularly welcome, again have no bearing on the way your engine is running.
I've looked at the sound track of the video. not easy to determine what is going on, as too many resonances. Another short recording with the hood down standing about 4 or 5ft in front of the car.would be more helpful. There is some knocking, but it's quite variable.
Re moving pump whilst engine is running
all my Quantum pumps are adjusted by pre-loosening the one lower nut accessed through one of the holes in the pulley with a 13mm deep ring spanner at about 5 'o' clock, and two 13mm nuts behind the timing belt guard, in the pump flange, one at about 10 o clock close to the #1 injector and one say 3 'o' clock.
The 4th nut is the pivot one down under the pump outlet head, with a 13mm bolt and a 14mm [or is it 15mm] nut. This can be awkward because the 13mm bolt head is hidden behind the oil stick and a water pipe.
Remember to detension fuel line after pump swinging.
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I don't see where its mentioned whats up with the injectors?
Definately hear some odd rattling in there.
Sounds like you don't have the right ip mount mini bracket if you are talking things off in order to crack the nuts so you can time by ear. the bottom ip bolt should be on the pulley side of the bracket so you can crack it before the rest.
I have lined the pump up to the mark before and just cracked each nut and smacked the pump head with a mallet to see what the car agrees with on a cold start, no cold start lever pulled.
Of course make sure you aren't ingesting air to start and that your filter and lines and out bolt are all clear so you can try and advance the smoke away.
But I do that with good parts and pumps I have resealed and cleaned.
I have had 2 runners that seemed to get the job done before but I could not ignore what I was seeing when timed by the book, and the pinging and smoke I was seeing.
Both are td's. A jetta that had some nasty nailing when I tried to advance the smoke away and it wouldn't even at idle, although not as thick as yours. Smoked some when driving to, even after warm and at a stop sign, etc.
Next is my pickup I just got on the road a few months ago. Thought I had a set of running injectors from another project on the shelf, timed it up and it sounded ok and all of that. But when I went to drive it, I was smoking out everybody behind me :)
Got new bosch injectors both times and no more of those issues.
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TIMING IS AWESOME!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqoM6lg9tIo&feature=youtu.be
So i put the bottom IP bolt into the pulley side and pushed the IP towards the engine a whole bunch and shes purring like a kitten!! it really sounds beautiful, save the horrible clacking from the exhaust piping. Im so ready for another test drive.
So lets forget about the engine for a while. I'm convinced that i've fixed the issues with the engine and now i need to focus on a few other issues.
First: What i've done with the 83.
rear brakes, 4speed swap with linkage from 4speed, manual steering swap, sent away the injectors for rebuild, new glow plugs (pimping coming soon), newer fuel filter. probably forgetting a couple things.
so the immediate issues:
*BIGGEST. I need to fix the super spongy brakes.. I was about to do the brake bleeding again tonight with my gf when i discovered a front caliper was loosely flopping around on the mount. I'll head to the junkyard tomorrow for the 2 allen bolts to mount it properly. I'm really hoping that this fixes the spongy feeling. I've bleed the air all around a couple times last year but nothing ever worked. Im hoping that the 1/4 inch gap is allowing the brake piston to push the caliper away from the rotor has added to the poor brakes.
*BIG. So i switched to the 1.5 triangle exhaust mani slash 3/4 exhaust pipe with the 1/4 1.6 muffler piping.. The stupid 1.5 pipe is about 2mm to large a diameter and i can not for the life of me tighten it on to the remaining pipe.. I tried to shim it with some exhaust repair tin foil from autozone.. no luck. The rattle of the larger pipe around the smaller is awful at best. clack a lacka smaka *** all day Its annoying
*third. Ill climb under the car tomorrow if the rain holds off. I'm having to duck under the reverse gate to get into first.. I have played around with the linkage a bunch and it shouldnt be too hard without 5th to move the whole lot of the linkage over but ill just have to see how it goes.. I'm just going to set it in 1st and crawl under the car to adjust.. Is this an acceptable practice? or do i go for reverse? all the way over and pulled back(under the car) That also seems like a decent place to try and find the distant extreme to which all others will be closer to center.
EDIT: I did find bubbling around 3 of the injectors. Not real big bubbles or anything but you guys mentioned the injector seals. Is there any big worry here?
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i181/smoldt88/0032_zps80a2c1fb.jpg) (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/smoldt88/media/0032_zps80a2c1fb.jpg.html)
Thanks all. We have accomplished another successful revival of a timeless beauty
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If it's not fuel drippin out of the rubber lines, I'd worry.
dry the area with brake clean and fire it up to be sure.
If it's not the returns, retorque your injector halves(don't overtorque or they crack and leak), and take a real hard look at the area where the seal washers seat to the head.
The harbor freight tailpipe expanders work OK on small pipe, but don't bother with the 3" one.
If you had to massively advance the pump, something probably isn't right.
But starting and idling is a good thing.
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RE that bubbling up the threads. I would not recommend over torquing.
Just leave them for a week to see if they settle down.
If they don't, then remove injectors.
I assume these are brand new heat shields.
Perfectly safe to reuse them indeed reused fit better than new.
Reform them using my technique listed here somewhere.
Reusing them once is perfectly safe, as my research found me reusing them 15 times [don't do this though].
The nozzle faces smears the soft shield and through reuse creates a better seal than new.
Note the best torquing techniques to avoid writing off the vulnerable injector boss on the head, and thus the head...
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One last update before i make a new thread with a less stupid name!
So the car is driving much much better now. I've probably put 30 miles on it since getting it running a month ago.
I did the hillbilly timing bump with a rubber mallet and it worked well but wouldn't hardly pull in 3rd or 4th (4speed trans). So today i checked the timing with a dial indicator. I was at about 1.28mm :) Oops so i backed it down to 1.15 and tried it again today. Better driving but still slow.
Started up well again even after cracking the ip fuel lines. It was super smokey with unburnt diesel smell. white smoke. Until i warmed it up. I want to drop the timing down to .88 like the book/vince waldon shows for the 1.5 pump but im worried that the retarded timing will make the white smoke worse, no?
Another note was even with the pump at 1.28 and today at 1.15, i am getting no black smoke.. im confused. I know the engine has less than 500 miles on it for sure and too much idling if you ask me. probably around 3 hours if i had to guess between me and PO. So i think before i retard the timing, id finally figure out how to break that fuel screw collar off and crank that biz up.
no bubbles in intake line. GP are working as far as im concerned and i drove for 20 minutes today without a problem. the idle is pretty slow but it didn't ever die on me. Id say top speed is about 45 in 3rd. Maybe ill plumb up my speedo and get a real reading some time :)
On my next thread, we can tackle the other long list of problems.. The pictures will explain much!
Love you all! we did it!