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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: libbydiesel on April 17, 2013, 07:54:01 am
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I'm relatively unfamiliar with the later PD and CR TDI engines. I really have no interest (at this time) in dealing with the PD fuel injection or the CAN-BUS engine management, but I would enjoy the added zoom of 4 valves per cylinder. In looking at pics, it appears that the ALH block and the CR block are very similar in their casting. Would the ALH pump bracket fit? Does the CR have the same cam pulley size and position? How hard would it be to install ALH injectors in a CR head? Am I missing other issues that would need to be addressed?
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diesel fuel only burns so fast... people wonder why i rev mine.. cause it likes it... but even then.. vs a gasser 8v its still not hitting what i can with a gasser 8v.. but impressivly 6k via math perty good..
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I'm more interested in the better breathing of 4v per cyl than I am in high revving.
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I think that would be more work than it's worth. The north American CR and 16v engines are both 2.0l (same stroke but greater bore than the 1.9l). Plus they have two cams obviously, so I'd imagine the pulley configuration is significantly different. SOHC is about as advanced as you can get with mechanical injection without investing lots of money.
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I've heard of someone making a 1.6 cr don't see why you couldn't backwards engineer.
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From what I've seen in pics, the cams are geared together on the flywheel side and so only driven by one sprocket that appears to be in the same location as the ALH. The block also appears to be identical to the ALH. This would make me believe that the ALH pump bracket could be used with m-TDI pump, ALH timing belt, custom metal lines and whatever rigging is necessary to mount the ALH injectors and Bob's your uncle...
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I don't see why it wouldn't work either. I would think about using the alh block with the cr head. That way the pump bracket would bolt right up. I'm currently working on improving airflow through the 8v alh head by porting, more aggressive cam and possibly a 3 angle valve job. Even with all of this, a fully modded 8v head still doesn't flow like a 16v head. It's quite surprising that it has taken VW this long to make the move to four valves per cylinder. Comparing head gaskets between the two blocks might give you a better idea of how similar the blocks actually are.
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How do the dimensions of the injectors compare?
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I don't know... From the pics I've seen I can't even tell how the injectors are held in place. After some investigation, that appears to be the greatest hurdle.
I have compared pics of the ALH block and the CR block and they appear to be the same casting. All the holes are in the right places. The cam sprocket appears to be in the correct location. From pics, the best I can tell is that the brackets and such from the ALH should all work. In looking at engine specs, in stock form the 2.0 CR engine can put out 298 ft-lbs of torque...
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How do the dimensions of the injectors compare?
This is THE hurdle, imho. The injectors are of a totally different design. I've not had my hands on CR injectors but PD injectors are WAY larger in diameter. The CR injectors will have a fuel gallery portion as do the PD units. I do know that there the ALH CH will bolt onto a PD bottom end and that the IP bracket can be fitted. See jimbotes post on the tdiclub.
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I hope the injectors are bigger as that would allow the use of a bushing to adapt to the correct size for the AHU/ALH injectors. The only deal breaker would be if the CR injectors were smaller and there wasn't enough meat in the head around them to machine and fit the earlier injectors.
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(http://www.myturbodiesel.com/images/crd1.jpg)
(http://www.myturbodiesel.com/images/crd3.jpg)
Here's the problem I see that no one has mentioned: the intake manifold. The intake is on the front of the head (which is what makes it a cross-flow, and a desirable thing) where the IP mounts on an ALH. As far as I can figure, in order to make it work you can't mount the pump in the stock ALH location. It might be workable to run a smaller front idler wheel and mount the pump close to where the stock CR pump is.
Your injectors are going to be a biatch to use. The CR injectors look to be a little smaller in diameter (assuming the nozzle housing is roughly the same size, as I used it for scale) and a whole lot longer. To get the ALH injectors to work, you'd need to bore out the hole, have the weeping port relocated, and make the injector line near impossible to get at.
I'm not saying don't do it. These are just a couple problems I spotted off the bat.
(Images pilfered from myturbodiesel.com)
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I had considered both of those potential issues before initially posting. Considering the installation angle of the ALH injection, it may still fit around the head, it actually looks likely. A custom intake would be needed. I haven't yet looked at pics of the injectors. Link?
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I had considered both of those potential issues before initially posting. Considering the installation angle of the ALH injection, it may still fit around the head, it actually looks likely. A custom intake would be needed. I haven't yet looked at pics of the injectors. Link?
yeah i agree theres a strong chance the pump and bracket will fit. i don't think tdi injectors could be used, atleast not with stock nozzles, aren't they desiged to compensate for the angle they are spraying on? but that is no issue, i wouldn't think, there are tons of injectors from tons of engines that could be viable, so long as they are the old pop style.
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CR injectors
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/Injector_removal_4_zpse8504062.jpg)
ALH injectors
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/4069a24a-0fca-41f8-82b4-680c8bd75d8e_zps8208d0b7.jpg)
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it would probably be easier to convert a 16v gasser head to accept a TDI injector, than it would be to use a PD/CR head..
why cant we build a PD to run like a detroit diesel? they didnt have an ECU, and had cam-operated injectors.. the injectors on a PD are likely all electronically operated? was such thing as a M-PD?
do you feel that your engine doesnt breathe well enough andrew? have you ported the head yet? a few users on here have had AWESOME increases from a good port job on even a 1.6 head.. the 1.9 head yields better numbers yet..
from a cost stand point, i think that a set of under-cut valves, and a good port job are going to net you a larger increase than an engine combo that may or may not work..
just because the head bolts on, doesnt mean it will work.. i believe they changed the later TDI blocks as well.. remember reading that the later TDI blocks had more oil drains, and more coolant passages as well..
i dont know if the 2 blocks are close enough to work tho..
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I have not ported any of my TDI engines. Do they 'breathe well enough'? Sure. Would 4 valves per cylinder increase their ability to breathe well? Absolutely. I do not think starting with a gasser head would make for less work. I am not thinking of mixing and matching heads/blocks. I would use the full CR longblock, bolt on the ALH pump bracket where the high pressure CR pump is, fit a custom intake and injection lines and modify the head/injectors to fit.
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I have not ported any of my TDI engines. Do they 'breathe well enough'? Sure. Would 4 valves per cylinder increase their ability to breathe well? Absolutely. I do not think starting with a gasser head would make for less work. I am not thinking of mixing and matching heads/blocks. I would use the full CR longblock, bolt on the ALH pump bracket where the high pressure CR pump is, fit a custom intake and injection lines and modify the head/injectors to fit.
And then a standalone vnt?
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Standalone electronic VNT control will be completed before putting any serious consideration into an mTDI CR engine.
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Standalone electronic VNT control will be completed before putting any serious consideration into an mTDI CR engine.
Hi Andrew,
If you have the technical savvy to build an electronic VNT control, I'll bet you could also design a simple stand-alone electronic fuel injection control system for this engine. I'm not saying it would be anywhere near as refined as a factory ECU, but if your only goal is drivability, fuel efficiency, and emissions that are on par with a mechanical fuel injection pump, I'll bet it wouldn't be too bad.
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The time you'd save by buying a Bosch motorsport ECU might be worth it though.
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While I enjoy the bells and whistles of a stock eTDI, on a conversion I'd rather run a mechanical pump for the added reliability, easier install and easier tuning.
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Libby you ought to check out the injectors for V6 tdi they might work for this. I was reading some uk forum where a guy made a v6 mtdi and looked interesting.
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http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-8107.html
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Right on. Thanks for the link. That guy does some crazy stuff.
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Bringing this one back here is an old thread i found.http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=18624.0
This whole idea seems cool to me.