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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Rising on April 04, 2013, 06:26:08 am
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Ok so I want some feedback on the best way to go about this whole turbo setup. I've been trying to slowly collect parts for this build, but now I'm starting to wonder about some of my parts and maybe it would be better to sell some of these and start over.
I have a vnt15 with integrated manifold, egr has been cut off and welded shut, and a gasser intake manifold with no throttle body. I have a 1.6TD block with oil squirters etc, but a N/A pump and oil pan.
I've heard the vnt is a great turbo for the 1.6, and I think especially using a N/A pump, the instant boost would allow me to run more fuel since "off-boost" really wouldn't be an issue.
But I also know that the mechanical linkage would be difficult to fabricate and I'm not sure if the 18.5 PSI max on the VNT will get me to the 100-115whp I'm looking for. But at this point I'm just tired of my 58HP and want to get at least some kind of turbo setup running.
Should I just sell the VNT and gasser manifold and just get a stock turbo setup instead of fabricating my own exhaust, intake, and mechanical vnt controller? Or is it worth it and I should stay the course?
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vnt is an awesome turbo on a 1.6 and should do your power goal easily, u might just need a smaller intercooler. but the stock setup is nice cause if you get one complete then you should be able to have it installed in a saturday pretty easily. the vnt is going to be harder to install and setup but the result will be better.
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I agree, if I find a VNT local for cheap I will be pouncing on it ;).
at this point I'm just tired of my 58HP and want to get at least some kind of turbo setup running.
More like 54hp crank.. 29 years ago.. LOL! I think Burn-Your_Money dynoed a stock 1.6D a few years back.. it was struggling to push 35whp.. SCARY.
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Haha great ::) my thunderous 58hp was overly optimistic haha
Yeah I think its worth shooting for. But maybe I should just do it in stages. Like maybe bolt the Gasser manifold up. Then the turbo no intercooler just a down pipe. Then the exhaust. Then the inter cooler and then vane control?
Are eBay AN lines acceptable oil lines? Anyone know the vnt oil fitting thread? What about cheap charge piping? Junkyard?
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I'd go with the VNT too.
I'd arrainge the stages differently though.
Turbo no intercooler first,
then the exhaust, it's easier coming out of the turbo than with the stock downpipe
because it's not so far to the driver's side that it needs a sharp turn back to the p-side to clear the shifter stuff and make it back to the tunnel.
Comes out of the turbo, turns 90 and toward the tunnel.
Which gasser intake? Which way does it point?
The vanes can be tied to a spot in the middle and used that way for awhile with good results, there are some sweet spots that make driving fun but you will need to watch your boost gauge.
If you got the oil supply fitting with the turbo; 5/16" brake line will work with the compression fitting.
If not, it's damn expensive at the dealership so I've always wonderd about the threads on the turbo side and a cheaper source for this fitting.
A question mark shaped pipe will need to be fabricated to go between the turbo and intake.
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This is very much what I intend to do (return to, really) in the very near future; what I can say is that the turbo oil feed line threads in the CHRA itself are M10x, either 1.25 or 1.00, I honestly don't remember, but it's the same as the oil pressure sensors in the head or the oil filter flange (convenient, right?). And that the turbo-to-intake manifold pipe is going to be complex enough that you might as well go the extra mile and plumb in the intercooler right off the bat, if you're thinking of installing one anyway--I'm assuming that if you're playing with a vnt, you're going to want more than 12 psi ;), which is to say you're going to feel the need for an intercooler pretty much right away. Honestly the most difficult part about a vnt swap onto our old motors is the vane control mechanism, which will take some doing. I think of this (http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11042) as the seminal work on mechanically-controlled vnt turbos, but I'm sure you've already run across that in your research on the subject. I have my own ideas about how it could be done, but I have yet to verify the design in real life situations. I can't speak to any particular knowledge of a cheap source of charge piping, as I bought my kit on ebay for around $100; doesn't satisfy the inner desire for ultimate thrift, I know, but I saw no other suitable option at the time... Do you have access to any welding equipment? It always seems like the silicone connectors is where the price gouging occurs, so if the need for those could be reduced...
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i just got a vnt 15 bolted on my 1.6d. after a lot of research on oil lines, here is what i used. i two adapters very simialr to this at my local speed shop: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=4192 . i connected them with a 3ft lenght of braided stainless -4an line. for the drain, i used the stock vnt drain flange and cut off the stock braided line. i ran 3/8 (?) fuel line from there to a hose barb that screws into a 3/8 NPT bung welded into the oil pan. I have had quite the time pulling all that info together so i figured i would share it. I am doing intake and exhaust tubing tonight. i'll let you know how it goes.
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I'd go with the VNT too.
I'd arrainge the stages differently though.
Turbo no intercooler first,
then the exhaust, it's easier coming out of the turbo than with the stock downpipe
because it's not so far to the driver's side that it needs a sharp turn back to the p-side to clear the shifter stuff and make it back to the tunnel.
Comes out of the turbo, turns 90 and toward the tunnel.
I was planning on running just a downpipe for a spell, either piped into my existing exhaust or just vented underneath the car, and then upgrading to a full exhast whenever i get some more funds... is that feasible or foolish?
Which gasser intake? Which way does it point?
I'm not entirely sure which model it is off of. I don't know anything about gasser vws, but it points towards the drivers side and is a logstyle long runner intake. Seems like it would be more efficient than the stock td intake.
The vanes can be tied to a spot in the middle and used that way for awhile with good results, there are some sweet spots that make driving fun but you will need to watch your boost gauge.
I definitely would go light on the boost and run my vanes either entirely open or slightly closed until I got a full vane mechanism functioning. I considered running it off of a boost can until i could make a mechanical setup, but i've heard that is fairly bad method of controlling so I think i'll just put it all together once i'm ready.
i just got a vnt 15 bolted on my 1.6d. after a lot of research on oil lines, here is what i used. i two adapters very simialr to this at my local speed shop: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=4192 . i connected them with a 3ft lenght of braided stainless -4an line. for the drain, i used the stock vnt drain flange and cut off the stock braided line. i ran 3/8 (?) fuel line from there to a hose barb that screws into a 3/8 NPT bung welded into the oil pan. I have had quite the time pulling all that info together so i figured i would share it. I am doing intake and exhaust tubing tonight. i'll let you know how it goes.
This is great info! I'm going to research a bit more on the return line side since i don't have the adapter for that side either. If I can come up with a definitive solution for avoiding the stealership prices, i'll definitely post it up. I'd love to hear more about your project so I can prepare for my own. Share and share alike :)
This is very much what I intend to do (return to, really) in the very near future; what I can say is that the turbo oil feed line threads in the CHRA itself are M10x, either 1.25 or 1.00, I honestly don't remember, but it's the same as the oil pressure sensors in the head or the oil filter flange (convenient, right?). And that the turbo-to-intake manifold pipe is going to be complex enough that you might as well go the extra mile and plumb in the intercooler right off the bat, if you're thinking of installing one anyway--I'm assuming that if you're playing with a vnt, you're going to want more than 12 psi ;), which is to say you're going to feel the need for an intercooler pretty much right away. Honestly the most difficult part about a vnt swap onto our old motors is the vane control mechanism, which will take some doing. I think of this (http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11042) as the seminal work on mechanically-controlled vnt turbos, but I'm sure you've already run across that in your research on the subject. I have my own ideas about how it could be done, but I have yet to verify the design in real life situations. I can't speak to any particular knowledge of a cheap source of charge piping, as I bought my kit on ebay for around $100; doesn't satisfy the inner desire for ultimate thrift, I know, but I saw no other suitable option at the time... Do you have access to any welding equipment? It always seems like the silicone connectors is where the price gouging occurs, so if the need for those could be reduced...
Yeah I think it may be worth while to just plumb the whole thing. I may investigate some junkyard sources of pipe until I can upgrade to an aluminum piping kit. Seems to me that volvo's have an abundance of charge piping that could probably be pieced together... and intercoolers to boot!
Libby's design is definitely going to be my starting point for vane control. The idea is fairly flawless. IF he made a kit I would hands down buy one, but as it is I don't think they will ever get produced... maybe he'll chime in on this thread some time and give me some hints ;D
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I know I've mentioned this company enough times to give people the impression that I work there, but a friend of mine who makes a living doing custom work on cars swears that he owes his business to this place. Columbia River Mandrel Bends. (http://www.mandrel-bends.com) Decently priced source of pre-bent pieces.
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This is great info! I'm going to research a bit more on the return line side since i don't have the adapter for that side either. If I can come up with a definitive solution for avoiding the stealership prices, i'll definitely post it up. I'd love to hear more about your project so I can prepare for my own. Share and share alike :)
Don't know if this will help you, but FWIW the oil return flanges on K03's are the same footprint as a vnt15 return flange. What sort of tooling do you have access to? I could send you measurements (or even a physical cardstock cutout; heck, maybe even an actual flange) for you to fab your own return line.
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I know I've mentioned this company enough times to give people the impression that I work there, but a friend of mine who makes a living doing custom work on cars swears that he owes his business to this place. Columbia River Mandrel Bends. (http://www.mandrel-bends.com) Decently priced source of pre-bent pieces.
Yeah I forgot about them. Would their 16 Gauge aluminum piping be acceptable for hotside turbo piping or do I need to go with steel? Might be easier to just weld the steel together...
Don't know if this will help you, but FWIW the oil return flanges on K03's are the same footprint as a vnt15 return flange. What sort of tooling do you have access to? I could send you measurements (or even a physical cardstock cutout; heck, maybe even an actual flange) for you to fab your own return line.
Well I have a pretty basic set of tools. I have access to your standard grinders and sawzalls. But no welders or cnc machines haha.
That being said, I may just have to find a stock oil line and hack it up. . . This is where I start to again lean towards selling/trading all this for a stock turbo set up.
Oil Lines: Custom
Intake Piping: Custom
Exhaust Piping: Custom
Intake Manifold Flange: Custom
Vane Control: Custom
It seems almost impossible to fab all this up without much downtime since this is my daily driver... ::)
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Yeah, if you don't have access to a welder, you might not have the technology for this build.
Something else to collect for this build is the exhaust brackets for the old-school 2-into-1 NA downpipes.
So the exhaust doesn't pry hard on the turbo.
One of the benefits of the VNT setup is being able to use the cheap and better flowing gasser intake.
One that points toward the passenger side is a better place to start if you don't want an intercooler.
I used the ?question mark pipe from a starion conquest turbo setup, to go from the turbo to intake.
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Yeah, if you don't have access to a welder, you might not have the technology for this build.
Something else to collect for this build is the exhaust brackets for the old-school 2-into-1 NA downpipes.
So the exhaust doesn't pry hard on the turbo.
One of the benefits of the VNT setup is being able to use the cheap and better flowing gasser intake.
One that points toward the passenger side is a better place to start if you don't want an intercooler.
I used the ?question mark pipe from a starion conquest turbo setup, to go from the turbo to intake.
Yeah I am a bit afraid of that. But I think that I could most likely pay a small shop around here to do the downpipe for me, and find a non weldable solution for the intake piping... This has certainly given me alot to think about though. I'm going to continue sourcing parts and see how things go. If I decide I can't get it up and running I'll just sell it off and look for a stock setup. Otherwise I think the VNT is worth the additional trouble.
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For a downpipe from a VNT-15 in an A1 Jetta, I used a down pipe from a junkyard Saab ( year/model?) de-flanged, cut & rotated that fits quite well between turbo outlet , short shift linkage, and where stock exhaust is routed; it is 2.25" stainless and has a flex section as well. Its welded to a VNT-15 flange from tectonics tuning.
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For a downpipe from a VNT-15 in an A1 Jetta, I used a down pipe from a junkyard Saab ( year/model?) de-flanged, cut & rotated that fits quite well between turbo outlet , short shift linkage, and where stock exhaust is routed; it is 2.25" stainless and has a flex section as well. Its welded to a VNT-15 flange from tectonics tuning.
Ohh that's actually quite excellent information. My mk1 rabbit should be able to do something similar. Idk why I never thought of junkyard exhaust!
Can you clue me in on an approximate age of the Saab? I wouldn't mind digging through a bunch of Saab's until I found one that looked right.
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just guessing, I'd say the donor Saab was sometime from late '80s thru '90s - - sorry i can't be more precise.
I'll try to post a photo later today.
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photo showing saab downpipe adapted to VNT-15 for MK1 use; note clearance to shift linkage
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That looks great! I'll have to peak around some yards and see what is out there!
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Quick question: What size piping was that saab pipe?
Because i'm looking online here (http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog/flanges-gaskets-36/turbo-flanges-62/vnt-15-turbo-flange-3-8-mild-steel-2354.html), and the flange appears to only have a 1.90" diameter hole. I'm wondering how big of an output the vnt exhaust housing is anyway?
Is there any advantage to running a 2.5" downpipe on a turbo that only has a 1.90" output flange? Or should I just run 2" downpipe?
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Billet-Alumimum-Turbo-Oil-Return-Flange-10-AN-Garrett-T3-T4-T04B-T04E-T04S-/380666727043?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58a1814a83&vxp=mtr
after poking around I think I can pick one of these up and use it to fab a return line (i can't find a stock vnt return line for cheaper than about 70 bucks and I'm just going to have to tear it to pieces anyway). I was thinking with that and a few feet of braided -10 an oil hose I'd be in business. Anybody know if this will work?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121096762038
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121092409135
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121094084545
Then have a 10an fitting welded to the oil pan?
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I think your plan for using -10AN fittings will work well; I used a stock TD oil pan, then had a short section of 16mm steel tubing welded to a male JIC fitting on one end and a compression fitting to mimic stock on the lower end. Then I attached a short braided stainless sheathed teflon hose with female JIC fitting on lower end and a open top end slid over an aluminum barbed fitting bolted to the VNT-15 oil drain area.
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Excellent ! I think I'm getting closer with all this. Is there any reason I should use jic fittings or barbed fittings over the an fittings? Seems the aN hose and fittings are abundant on fleabay and good prices.
Thinking about doing this for the pan. Is there enough clearance for this ? I'm trying to eliminate as much welding as possible. As welding is going to cost me!
http://www.d-series.org/forums/diy-forum/121599-diy-oil-pan-tapping-oil-return-line.html
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The AN are mostly aluminum and IMHO junk. They are the exact same threads as JIC Exactly a 37.5 degree flare and the number designates how many 16ths of an inch it is. Example an-10 or JIC-10 is a 5/8 or 10/16 sized hose. I like the JIC as the steel ones I have are very reusable.
I think the pan idea would work. I welded mine as I didn't want the chance of vibrations letting it come loose. One major thing I recommend is using a 90 out of the pan. On mkii angled approx. to the freeze plug by #4.
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Perfect! You're the man ;) That's exactly the input I needed. I'm still such a newbie with all this fabrication stuff. Theory I understand but how to actually build custom pieces I'm working on.
I looked up jic fittings and it seems hydraulic surplus stores sell them very reasonably. And I'd only need like 2. I'll be sure to take pictures of all of this together once I get it going.
Also found a huge 2" pipe nipple at work that may get jb welded onto a plate for my intake adapter.
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