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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Gizmoman on March 31, 2013, 08:09:05 pm

Title: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: Gizmoman on March 31, 2013, 08:09:05 pm
Getting closer to having all my parts but have a few unchecked items on the list.
One is a stronger clutch. I think the one I have was stock for the 1.6 and as I am increasing the HP to a hopeful 130 or more, I think something a bit sticker is needed.
Any thoughts on this?
(http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/norm/ctf-df039020_w_m.jpg)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctf-df295296/media/images/make/volkswagen (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctf-df295296/media/images/make/volkswagen)

It's possibly three times the price of the stock set up but my thoughts are that it will last that much longer. My concern is, will it fit?
It is a 24 tooth spline (OK) and the diameter is right but there may be something I am overlooking. Any help appreciated.


Also, I purchased this block from a member and I have no idea what this banjo bolt/port is for?
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-knmTwuc_8Kw/UVjLwkvypvI/AAAAAAAABmI/CLHJ7NINXnI/s720/DSC00387.JPG)
My 1.9 block needed a re-bore and I also found out it was probably an industrial engine as it had smaller piston pin diameters (and odd-ball rods) - so I needed new rods. Point is, the old block has a flat on the casting in the same place, but there's no hole. What is this for - possibly an oil return point from the turbo?

In short, comments on the clutch selection and the banjo bolt much appreciated.
Thanks,
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: 8v-of-fury on March 31, 2013, 08:24:08 pm
How do you remove the pressure of the plate from the clutch disk on that particular model?

It says it will fit the VW. but there may be other needed pieces to make it all button up.

That banjo bolt on the block is for the turbo drain line.
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: libbydiesel on March 31, 2013, 09:10:18 pm
The most often used clutch upgrade from the 1.6 clutch in a vanagon is to use the TDI flywheel, VR6 pressure plate and heavy duty WBX 228mm disc.  That will hold back at least 250ish ft-lbs of torque and you really don't want to put more than that through the vanagon trans.  You need bend down two tabs and clearance a little on the inside of the bell-housing and nose of the starter.

Don't forget to install a pilot bearing in the end of the crank...
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: Gizmoman on April 01, 2013, 09:24:54 am
The most often used clutch upgrade from the 1.6 clutch in a vanagon is to use the TDI flywheel, VR6 pressure plate and heavy duty WBX 228mm disc.  That will hold back at least 250ish ft-lbs of torque and you really don't want to put more than that through the vanagon trans.  You need bend down two tabs and clearance a little on the inside of the bell-housing and nose of the starter.

Don't forget to install a pilot bearing in the end of the crank...
I'd like to keep the flywheel I have as it fits just dandy and this looks like it will bolt right in. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with the manufacturer or insight as to how it engages/disengages. According to the info, it doesn't require a heavy foot to operate but greatly increases holding power. As you can see on the web page, there's no throw-out bearing with it so I have the same concerns as 8V-of-fury. I don't know how tall the assembly is and if my TB will land in the proper position.
Hopefully I can get an answer out of them for my application - I'll keep you posted.

That's a go on the pilot bearing Libby.

I guess I'll be making a plug-bolt as I have no use for the turbo drain port up that high on a 50 degree engine. Mine has the line directly to the pan.

Again, so great to have this forum to bounce ideas around - thanks again.
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: bajacalal on April 01, 2013, 11:26:07 am
It's a Centerforce clutch. They're something you see more in racing vehicles, 4x4s than with our slowmobiles LOL. The silver squares in the picture are weights that move outward due to centrifugal force when the clutch is spinning and pull on the fingers (the opposite direction they would go when you push the clutch) to apply extra force to the pressure plate. Otherwise it works the same as any other clutch for the 020 trans. Yes, it will be heavier than stock.

I'm also familiar with this brand which is cheaper http://www.specclutch.com/products (http://www.specclutch.com/products). It's cheaper (shop around for one under $200) and did the job as advertised on a car we put one on. No weights though, and it will be heavier, but I don't think it will be too hard to drive for their "stage 1" products.
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: libbydiesel on April 01, 2013, 11:47:23 am
Gizmo, I seriously doubt that PP will fit a 1.6 vanagon flywheel.  According to the application specs it fits jetta/rabbit and quantum.  Oddly enough, the jetta/rebbit and quantum flywheel/clutch setups are wildly different.  Jetta/rabbit has PP bolted to crank and flywheel bolted to PP with a weird plate in the middle that gets pushed on by a rod that passed through the center of the trans input shaft.  The Quantum has a more typical flywheel bolted to the crank with PP bolted to it an a trow-out bearing pushing on it like the vanagon setup.  Unfortunately, the quantum setup is also very different from the vanagon setup and none of the parts interchange except possibly the disc itself.  I would be suspicious of any clutch setup that fits any VW other than the 1.6 diesel Vanagon.
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: MJF on April 01, 2013, 12:42:49 pm
Looks that even Centerforce does not know what car that clutch will fit. Go for TDI/WBX setup that libby wrote, it will handle anything 1,6 can give. I might try even new quality stock clutch, it is larger than biggest golf or quantum clutch.
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: burn_your_money on April 01, 2013, 02:16:50 pm
Where would one find this pilot bearing? Is it a common part or custom made?
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: libbydiesel on April 01, 2013, 03:01:42 pm
MJF, just for clarity, he has an upgraded performance AAZ in a Vanagon.

Burn, the vanagon pilot bearing is a very common part that is installed in the end of the crank of all the early longitudinal VW/Audi 1.6 diesels (quantum, vanagon, dasher, 4000, etc...).  I can look up the part # later if needed, but a parts supplier lookup for '83 Vanagon with 1.6 diesel should give the correct result.
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: theman53 on April 01, 2013, 04:57:36 pm
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=76_102&products_id=860

If the TDI setup works, as the VR6 pressure plate is what they used to use on the TDI before this, then I recommend this one. I have it in my 01 TDI and it feels like the stock one, except the stage 2 tune doesn't slip on this one. All in one nice bundle and you can get the lighter flywheel if you wanted. At 14 lbs it is a tad heavier than the stock 020 210mm setup.
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: burn_your_money on April 01, 2013, 06:22:10 pm
Burn, the vanagon pilot bearing is a very common part that is installed in the end of the crank of all the early longitudinal VW/Audi 1.6 diesels (quantum, vanagon, dasher, 4000, etc...).

I found it, thank you. Why is this needed on longitudinal engines but not transverse? Any idea if it's the same as the ones for automatics?
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: theman53 on April 01, 2013, 07:37:35 pm
The transverse the input shaft of the trans never is in the center of the crank, so it isn't needed to support the shaft is my guess.
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: Gizmoman on April 01, 2013, 09:16:37 pm
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=76_102&products_id=860

If the TDI setup works, as the VR6 pressure plate is what they used to use on the TDI before this, then I recommend this one. I have it in my 01 TDI and it feels like the stock one, except the stage 2 tune doesn't slip on this one. All in one nice bundle and you can get the lighter flywheel if you wanted. At 14 lbs it is a tad heavier than the stock 020 210mm setup.
Wow 500 bucks. Geeze.
If this is as good as it sounds (bolt-and-go) I spoze it's worth it. I don't mind heavy, the van is heavy and I'm not racing it - just want it to last long time;D.


What are your thoughts Libby?
The most often used clutch upgrade from the 1.6 clutch in a vanagon is to use the TDI flywheel, VR6 pressure plate and heavy duty WBX 228mm disc.  That will hold back at least 250ish ft-lbs of torque and you really don't want to put more than that through the vanagon trans.  You need bend down two tabs and clearance a little on the inside of the bell-housing and nose of the starter.

If I went your way, I'd have to source these bits separately. Any links appreciated.
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: Gizmoman on April 03, 2013, 09:13:23 am
OK,
I've done some searching using "TDI flywheel", "VR6 pressure plate", and "heavy duty WBX 228mm disc" based on Libby's suggestion. and results were. . .

http://www.kermatdi.com/servlet/the--dsh--dsh-CLUTCHES-dsh--dsh-/Categories (http://www.kermatdi.com/servlet/the--dsh--dsh-CLUTCHES-dsh--dsh-/Categories)
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/product.php?id=931&product_code=028105269b.ess (http://www.fourseasontuning.com/product.php?id=931&product_code=028105269b.ess)
http://www.worldimpex.com/parts/genuine-part-flywheel_265400.html (http://www.worldimpex.com/parts/genuine-part-flywheel_265400.html).
I emailed http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=76_102&products_id=860 (http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=76_102&products_id=860) - (thanks theman) but have received no response.
My concern is that the clutch disc may have a 28 tooth spline in the clutch disc and my transmission is 24 tooth.
None of these sites explain the clutches to that level of detail. Anyone know if these discs are 24 tooth?

I also ran across this site which others may find useful.
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/clutch-kit-FAQ-VW-Audi.htm (http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/clutch-kit-FAQ-VW-Audi.htm)
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: libbydiesel on April 03, 2013, 10:26:20 am
The TDI input shaft is different from the vanagon one.  That is why you need the WBX (waterboxer - gas vanagon) disc which will fit the TDI flywheel and pressure plate. 
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: Gizmoman on April 03, 2013, 08:37:44 pm
The TDI input shaft is different from the vanagon one.  That is why you need the WBX (waterboxer - gas vanagon) disc which will fit the TDI flywheel and pressure plate. 
Got it, thanks
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: libbydiesel on April 03, 2013, 09:18:24 pm
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=549444
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: Gizmoman on April 03, 2013, 09:35:34 pm
Just wanted to run this by everyone one more time. . .
228 mm TDI FLYWHEEL - (http://www.fourseasontuning.com/parts/028105269bL.jpg)

Website - http://www.fourseasontuning.com/product.php?id=931&product_code=028105269b.ess (http://www.fourseasontuning.com/product.php?id=931&product_code=028105269b.ess)

Vanagon 228 mm CLUTCH AND PRESSURE PLATE KIT  - (http://www.partsgeek.com/assets/rep/thumb/1094876.jpg)
Website - http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1989/volkswagen/vanagon/clutch/clutch_kit.html (http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1989/volkswagen/vanagon/clutch/clutch_kit.html)

Don't want to be a PITA but - well, I guess I just am sometimes.

Are these the bits required?
The pressure plate looks beefier than what I have now and so does the disc.
Hopefully I can get these on the way and stop bugging everyone with this.
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: libbydiesel on April 03, 2013, 09:54:51 pm
What you need is the TDI/VR6/G60 flywheel and TDI/VR6/G60 pressure plate along with the WBX disc.  I do not think the WBX pressure plate will work, but I'd have to compare the WBX PP and the TDI one to recall why.  I think I have both in the parts bin, but I'd have to look.

Flywheel:
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=996

Pressure plate:
http://www.partsgeek.com/ss/?i=1&ssq=W0133-1612589&x=24&y=5

Clutch disc:
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1989/volkswagen/vanagon/clutch/clutch_disc.html

Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: Gizmoman on April 04, 2013, 09:08:12 am
OK, I was close anyway ;D
I am curious about the Valeo kit http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1989/volkswagen/vanagon/clutch/clutch_kit.html (http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1989/volkswagen/vanagon/clutch/clutch_kit.html) as it "appears" to be beefier than the Sachs.
Can you check the compatibility if you get a chance? If not - understood. You've already walked me through this to a clear solution. Many thanks Libby.

Also, I will be sure to remove the tabs from the pressure plate, and check bolt lengths and housing clearances.

Cheers

Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: Syncroincity on April 04, 2013, 09:09:40 pm
You don't need to remove the tabs, just tap them down flush; you'll see it once you get it in your hands. While minor, it would create a slight imbalance in the PP if you grind them off.

The bellhouse clearancing is also minor, just hold the flywheel in roughly where it resides and you'll see where it could interfere. You'll also need to take off a few mm's from the gear end of the starter... I can't remember exactly where; the tip or the flat edge, it will be apparent when you dry-fit the motor.
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: Gizmoman on April 05, 2013, 08:06:59 am
You don't need to remove the tabs, just tap them down flush; you'll see it once you get it in your hands. While minor, it would create a slight imbalance in the PP if you grind them off.

The bellhouse clearancing is also minor, just hold the flywheel in roughly where it resides and you'll see where it could interfere. You'll also need to take off a few mm's from the gear end of the starter... I can't remember exactly where; the tip or the flat edge, it will be apparent when you dry-fit the motor.
Noted.
As for the Vanagon 228 mm pressure plate (http://www.partsgeek.com/assets/rep/thumb/1094876.jpg) bolting up to the G60 flywheel (http://www.idparts.com/catalog/oscthumb.php?src=otLR0cjX56KYy9HN3tnl4pPUkKuppqCRopDV4-XbxdTQ2ODs4MzVxt7TrKKansvi2w..&w=120&h=96&f=jpg&q=95&hash=ba8d80258c4cb7fc761648b3fa4567d8), maybe I can get a local auto parts to get them so I can check fit at the counter. Not sure if they will do that but it beats ordering them and having to send it back if they don't match up.
I am probably over-thinking everything here (again) but the Vanagon pressure plate just looks stronger than the Sachs G60.

Also, thanks for the tip on the starter nose. Nothing worse than having to stab in a motor twice ;D
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: libbydiesel on April 05, 2013, 09:37:13 am
The vanagon disc does work with the tdi/g60 flywheel and pressure plate provided you clearance the bell-housing and starter as outlined in the thread I linked.  I'm sure about that.  The only question I have is why the gas vanagon pressure plate doesn't work.  I believe the gasser flywheel is a different depth and the pressure plate matches it. 
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: libbydiesel on April 05, 2013, 11:16:00 pm
I looked in my spare parts bin and it is quite obvious why the WBX PP will not work with the TDI flywheel.  The depth of the friction surface from the surface that the PP bolts to is twice as deep on the WBX, approx. 25mm vs 12.5mm on the TDI flywheel.
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on April 06, 2013, 01:27:07 am
Where would one find this pilot bearing? Is it a common part or custom made?

theres one in the end of the crank in my Jetta ;-p
Title: Re: Clutch in van and what is this bolt for?
Post by: Gizmoman on April 06, 2013, 11:02:19 am
I looked in my spare parts bin and it is quite obvious why the WBX PP will not work with the TDI flywheel.  The depth of the friction surface from the surface that the PP bolts to is twice as deep on the WBX, approx. 25mm vs 12.5mm on the TDI flywheel.
Thanks Libby - I am now 331 bucks lighter ;D

Now I'll get back to fabbing the support bracket to brace the Laminova inter-cooler and K14/manifold to the block. This was a suggestion from a member and I'm heeding it.
I'll post photos soon.

Thanks again everyone!