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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: TonyTDTruck on March 22, 2013, 04:43:40 pm
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I've been running this completely rebuilt AAZ with a factory K14 Turbo. The engine sits at 50deg and the turbo was moved from a lower position like the 1.6td .
I moved the turbo because I though it might be sitting too low and the oil drain might be backing up. I used the original AAZ exhaust manifold and now the turbo drain sits about 6" to 8" above the pan oil level. It didn't take long before driving it that it started leaking again. The turbo drain is the factory pipe. I sent the turbo to G-POP and they told me that nothing is wrong with the turbo. They completely rebuilt it last year. It only has around 400 miles on it now. They told me that it could be the oil pressure might be too high, or the drain not large enough to drain the oil. Anybody know what the minimum oil pressure can be for this turbo? I'm thinking about placing a pressure gauge just before the turbo to get a reading of the pressure.
I'm getting ready to switch to a gasser if I can't figure this one out.
Oil leaks between the hot housing and the body. It leaks about 4 table spoon in 15miles. Oil doesn't go into the exhaust. No smoke just oil dripping out of the contact surface of the hot side and the housing. >:(
Thanks
Tony
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In the limited experiences I've had with g-pop, I would not recommend dealing with them.
These engines cannot develop oil pressure 'too high for the turbo'. The K14 has journal bearings and so it should not leak even if the oil pressure is 150+psi going into the turbo. Your drain is at 6:00? Does it run consistently downhill to the block? Crank vent is clear and breathing well?
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Yes it's clocked pointing down and down hill. I would take a picture but the turbo is in the mail back to me. They told me that 50 psi should be more than plenty and that 80 is too
much. ??? I was skeptical of that but I'm not a turbo expert. I don't know why they would tell me that.
Anyway, do you have a turbo rebuilder that can take a look at this one? Would a pump in the drain make sense? I am running the drain to the pan just like the 1.6td and to the block as well. I have a tee in the drain to go to both places.
They are telling me that the turbo is not the problem.
Thanks Libby.
Tony
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Correct. It's leaking where they contact and no gasket is present.
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I don't have a specific recommendation for turbo rebuilding. You could check these guys out:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=31392.0
There shouldn't be a gasket between the turbine housing and center cartridge and it still shouldn't leak there. I would make sure that there isn't any part of the drain line that is a smaller ID than the tube off the bottom of the turbo. If it all runs nicely downhill and the drain is at 6:00, then I would say there has to be an issue with the turbo center cartridge.
You'll get it sorted. I hope that gasser comment wasn't serious...
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I'll keep trying to figure it out. I do need a second opinion on the internals of this turbo by an expert.
It's going to take a lot of effort to keep from going to a gasser, but I've spent lots of money and time on this already. I've completed the restoration project and I can't even use the Doka for anything. Frustrating.
When I get it up and running again I will post up some pictures of the leak when it happens.
Thanks for the tips.
Tony
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You've clearly had enough, already. I'll take that time-sucking vampire off your hands for you. :D
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HA HA, do you mean the turbo, the engine or the DoKa? It make a difference you. ;D
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Are you running the stock K14 oil pipe out of the turbo housing? If you are, I don't think it's possible to put the drain exactly at 90 on a 50 degree application.
Not sure if this may be the cause of your leaking turbo but before I toasted my motor, I had the stock drain tube set-up and I also had a black film of oil on everything in the vicinity of the turbo in the bay.
Libbydiesel pointed that issue out after viewing a pic I had posted of the engine out. He also had several recommendations on a fix.
Here's a pic of the general fix I did.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-C7yEaQylpik/UEFmJ9I92JI/AAAAAAAABM0/1HNmrMOe5xc/s912/BJ%2520Fitting%25206.JPG)
Since that photo, I did some machining on the banjo (thinned the head a bit to put a bit more room between the bolt and the boost can) and tig-welded a curved 1/2" tube in place of the #8 JIC male. It is also is routed directly towards the block. Sorry, I don't have the photo of that handy but I dig it up if needed. From there It's hosed to a #8 fitting on the pan. Can't say if it was the out of clocking that caused it to blow a black mist all over everything but it defiantly was not at six o-clock with the stock tube.
Now I can set it at 6:00 - dead on.
Not done with the build yet so no feedback on the outcome yet.
Good luck.
Nice van sir, very nice.
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Are you running the stock K14 oil pipe out of the turbo housing?
Hey Gizmoman. I am able to run the stock pipe on a 50deg app. Here is how I did it.
I use a custom made engine mount. I take the stock oil drain pipe and cut it. On a lathe I turn and cut the outside to create a barb fitting for a hose and clamp.
This gives me enough room to run the shorter pipe (about 2-1/2" long) down at a 5deg angle. Not quite straight down but good enough. With the custom mount, I can snake the drain to the rear and clear the mount. I don't have it in place so I can't take a picture of it. The waste gate is 1/8" above the custom motor mount bracket. Here is a picture of the mount I made.
It could be a crack but it is coming from the turbine shaft because we removed the casting and we can then see the oil seeping from behind the cover that looks like a hat.
Thanks
Tony
(http://i50.tinypic.com/10igrnk.jpg)
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That mount is a work of art.
Here's a photo of my banjo fitting.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-NZey8jeTXA4/UU3blwYLc5I/AAAAAAAABjs/PfnPiijhvws/s912/DSC00381.JPG)
I can't figure out why your's would leak unless the line is blocked somehow. The size of the huge oil exit port should allow the oil to leave the housing pretty easily without finding some other route.
I rebuilt mine and used that new 360 degree seal ring on the shaft.
Here's a closer view.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-peuQwJyFbrY/UU3bmd3br5I/AAAAAAAABj0/_ld1FfwjiGo/s912/DSC00382.JPG)
I wonder if the folks who rebuilt it left something out. Wish I could say mine doesn't leak - I'm a ways off from finding out.
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Wow interesting. You went to the inside with the drain. I was able to stay on the outside. Wish I could take pictures of what I did.
I do need to have a second opinion on this turbo. I'll be making some contacts soon to set up an inspection. Yes it's possible that something was left out.
Wish I knew what to look for.
Tony
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On one I did recently I tapped the center cartridge to the closest NPT and installed a 45° barb fitting. I rotated the wastegate actuator clockwise one position so the metal line was out of the way and then ran the drain to the outside of the turbo, around the turbo and to the pan.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/100_1718.jpg)
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Also, Tony, while I prefer the K14s performance over that of the K03, especially on the 1.9s, you can get brand new authentic Borg Warner K03s for about $600 from Boraparts. There is no interference with the stock driver's side mount bracket and the drain is more easily configured. I'm not sure where to get a brand new K14 for an AAZ.
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Thanks Libby I'll consider the K03 if this cannot be resolved.
The picture you posted is too dark for me to figure out what is going on.
When you have time, get some light on it and see if it turns out better.
Tony
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The picture isn't great, but it's the best one I have. The description is decent tho, and the two combined should give you the idea.
Are you sure it isn't leaking down from the supply? The supply is dry?
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I see now what you did with the drain in the picture. Something else to consider.
I have checked many times and it's not leaking from the supply. When I remove the hot casting,
you can see the oil coming from the seal area. I would have to remove the hot turbine in order to see the seal area.
I don't want to do that because I'm not sure what I'm looking for anyway. ???
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Here's what it should have inside if it was rebuilt properly
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fWGKZYn6C6Y/UVDyRiDAjlI/AAAAAAAABkA/vIjKUm_P5t8/s576/K-14%2520Turbo%2520Assy.JPG)
Item 3 is a like a tiny piston ring and should not allow oil to leak past unless there a restriction in the drain. The ring I used in my rebuild is a new style 360 ring (ends overlap slightly) but even the stock one should keep the oil from leaking - unless they forgot to install it or assembled it wrong.
That is, if I understand correctly where your leak is (between the hot side and the bearing housing) ;D
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Wow very cool Gizmoman. This diagram tells a lot. I think I will remove the turbine and take a look at this ring.
I'm not installing it until I have confirmed one way or another that all is in place.
Where did you get that style 360 ring? Maybe I should replace it.
This is exactly where it's leaking.
Thanks
Tony
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For the life of me I cant find the link, or even my receipt.
I bought the kit from Dieselicous (sp?) for around 100 bucks.
Two big features were a thrust bearing with more surface and the 360 degree ring where the split ends are ground to overlap. Like I mentioned, it looks like a tiny piston ring and should fit snugly in the groove on the shaft and the OD should be tight in the housing.
Stick with it, It would be a shame to change out your engine due to this issue (unless your not happy with the performance).
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I just found this thread. I also have a K14 with an inexplicable leak near the turbine housing down onto the oil return line. Not as much of a leak but messy anyway. Interesting.
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I'm still working on my rebuild so I may still have a leak as well ;D. Mine leaked (oil film everywhere around the turbo) before I blew the motor but libbydiesel noticed in a photo I posted that my drain wasn't clocked to exactly 6:00.
I have since modified the drain and it's dead-on at 6:00 and flow free. I even made up a new #8 AN hose with red and blue fittings cause adding bling never hurts.
I am hoping that will solve the issue for good. My guess is that the drain really needs to be at 6:00. I'd also make sure the block can breathe as well. If the pressure in the crankcase can't relieve itself, it may push oil up that drain line. I'm not sure if it matters but my drain goes to a fitting below the oil level. It's a #8 JIC male tig welded into the aluminum pan.
BTW, my application is the 50 degree set-up in a Vanagon.