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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: annieneff on March 04, 2013, 09:07:44 am
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From my last post; I got clear fuel lines, primed everything and got ready to see if there were any bubbles. I turned the key while my friend was going to turn the injector lines to bleed the air.
Long story short, it made a kind of weird noise the first key turn. Kind of like the starter and the flywheel bound up for a split second?
After awhile of cranking and no fuel moving through my nice new clear lines, my friend asked if the timing belt should be moving. Then I had him go turn the key and sure enough, starter and flywheel spinning happily along, but crank and all the belts on the other side were dishearteningly still and quiet.
Forgive my ignorance. I haven't had something like this happen before. I'm suspecting broken driveshaft because my bus is a complete trainwreck and that would fit the story and themes perfectly. But I also think something just broke in the transmission. Any ideas/suggestions before I tear the transmission off?
After I kind of freaked out about the crank not cranking, my friend admitted to driving it like a complete idiot a few weeks before, right before it died. Now he tells me. Stalled it out a bunch of times and a lot if jerky jerky stuff in the van and transmission. Steep, steep, hills in Seattle. He won't get to borrow it or drive it again.
Thanks in advance--
Andrew
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Well... if the flywheel is really turning, you got heartache, friend.
I am picturing a loose or broken timing belt (possibly a trashed crank sprocket) that allowed the pistons to hit the valves.
Any chance there was a tool or holder left in the path of the timing belt? (Not that it would change the situation.)
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I have seen a pump lock left in.. and it was enough to allow the whole belt to not move. The crank sprocket took every tooth off around it, and it slipped over the crank sprocket..
Either that, or the starter took a shat an is just spinning.. Hopefully eh
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I haven't had the timing cover on in awhile. All intact and really fine there. I should also mention that I put the car in gear and rolled it a stroke or two. That made everything turn just fine, just like normal, although when I did that I didn't look at the flywheel at the same time. Kind of difficult to do.
I also ended up taking the v belt off the alternator water pump, and crank wheel. The crank wheel felt kind of loose, but not terminal? Probably shouldn't be loose at all huh? I'm still holding out hope here since my timing belt is intact.
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IF the engine rolled over with pushing the van.. the rotating assembly is probably fine. As well as the clutch, or else the wheels and engine wouldn't be connected.
Starter seems suspect here.
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How would the starter turn the flywheel but not the rest of the engine?
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Starter is probably not turning the flywheel ;)
It has to shoot out and engage the flywheel, it is not full time engagement.
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So even though I can see the flywheel turning it doesn't mean it's fully engaged and working?
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OH. You can see the flywheel turning while turning the key?? and the belt and other stuff doesnt move???
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Exactly.
Weirdo situation, huh?
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anyone??? what engine??
my worry... that crank pully in no way ever should feel loose... ever... stick wrench on it.. turn loose.. is the bolt moves.. take bolt out.. pop gear off see how ruinedcrank and sprocket is... wrench on crank turning ccw should not move with out serious effort.. so even say 30ft-lbs and loose is too loose..
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ohh also.. no idea of old post.. why injector lines need bled??
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Aaz engine, sorry.
I'll check out the crank as suggested.
The injector lines needed to be bled bc original symptom was prolific white smoke and rough idle, 2 days after getting it back from the shop. I replaced fuel lines with clear to see if there were bubbles...
Then the turning flywheel but nothing else.
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Broken or loose flywheel mount bolts
Ring gear cracked and loose on flywheel
Broken crank
Front gear/snout
Pull one GP, and crank it, does air move through the hole? if yes, part of the crank at least is turning.
What part of the flywheel have you seen turning?
If stick, what happens when you crank in gear?
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Please everyone with me-- "let it be broken flywheel bolts, let it be broken flywheel bolts..."
I'll check all the other suggestions tomorrow. Thanks!
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Please everyone with me-- "let it be broken flywheel bolts, let it be broken flywheel bolts..."
I'll check all the other suggestions tomorrow. Thanks!
All 6 (or 9) of them? I dunno man... I'll pray ;).
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That's what happens If the tech is too cheap for locktite.
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Too many conflicting symptoms... flywheel spins, but belts don't move, then belts move when bus is pushed in gear? ???
Jerking and stalling on Seattle hills could really do a number on loose flywheel bolts, no doubt.
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Update?
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Haven't had time to even glance it's direction. Maybe middle of next week?
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Looking forward to seeing how you get on with this one. I'm hoping flywheel bolts too brah. Least damaging. Cheapest parts to replace. ... medium on the difficulty/energy needed of the job to do.
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Thanks for suggestions and well wishes. No update to report yet, and it's going to be awhile until I dig into it. I have an AFN that's chipped to 140hp coming in on Friday for my b4v passat glx vr6 (soon to be tdi) :). I'm kind of mad at the van after all the work I've put into it so it gets sloppy seconds here (giles pump, new injectors, new turbo, new water pump, new radiator, rebuilt head after catastrophic tb failure... should I go on, I could...! common, what more could it want/need!?).
As curious as I am about what went wrong, if it's a big huge cry me to sleep every night for a week bummer-- I'm not all that eager to find that out. Plus (correct me if I'm wrong here), I have to take the whole transmission off to see if it's the (Hopefully!!!) sheared bolts, or whatever's going on in there. Not the most exciting project in and of itself. Right now I'm sticking to walking by the van every day and giving it the evil eye. I'm tempted to kick it sometimes, but I'm afraid I'll break something else if I do.
Anyway, I promise 100 I'll update as soon as I do something with it. My initial reaction of thinking this was gonzo bizarro seems to be justified and I'd like to try and be educational with this, just in case anyone out there is ever unfortunate enough to be in a similar situation. Thanks again for checking in. Look for an update from me in about June when I come out from under this wiring harness I'm weaving my way through these days and nights.
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If it turns the motor when in gear and the starter engages but doesn't turn the motor, but turns the flywheel, then it sounds like the flywheel is broken between the teeth and surface... Are the ring gears replaceable on these flywheels? Welded on? I don't remember them being like that..
I'd put my effort on the starter, how do you know its engaging? Should be a simple fix if it is indeed turning while pushing.
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OK, our Volkswagens... doesn't the backwards flywheel not actually bolt to the crank, like it does on most cars? The clutch pressure plate is bolted to the crank... And that's bolted to the flywheel with a few pathetic little bolts. So your clutch is most likely not connected to your flywheel. That's a whole lot better than broken bolts at the crank or a crank that moves without turning the cam.
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The clutch pressure plate is bolted to the crank... And that's bolted to the flywheel with a few pathetic little bolts.
6 or 9 heavy grade bolts, BUT I guess they could shear if you are trying to lurch 2.756 tons around in San Francisco lol.
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6 or 9 heavy grade bolts, BUT I guess they could shear if you are trying to lurch 2.756 tons around in San Francisco lol.
Aren't they only like 8 mm bolts though... And, who knows what's in there, just because VW used a grade 12.9 bolt and recommended locktite, doesn't mean that's what's in there now.
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So very true, could be just a hardware bolt.. haha.
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If I recall they are supposed to be one time use bolts and are 7mm-1.0 thread. They maybe not TTY bolts one time use, but that is what I have in my head. I would consider them a weak link in the deal, but I still think something is going on I cannot see and would love to.
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Based on the symptoms that you were bringing it into the shop for, unfortunately I'm going to say that your crank gear has spun. You could pull the valve cover and see if any of the valves/lifters are mangled.
It probably is able to turn the belts when it is rolling because it's going slow enough that it can't break the friction but when it is cranking fast it just spins.
A quick check of your timing will let you know what's up, or at least give you some solid clues.
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sadly i said that last page... but ignored i am..
all he has to do is turn the crank bolt ccw.. if it moves at all.. thats it.. ive seen it.. 30 sec test with boxwrench..
but ill agree with him.. to walk out there do that and find that.. id have some hotdogs and sticks with me.. as the road flair i store beside my spare 2 gal of fuel just somehow lit its self..
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as the road flair i store beside my spare 2 gal of fuel just somehow lit its self..
Damn, you got good coverage.. lol
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its a vanagon... for me to own one id have to be given a few trillion with it.. so to burn it would be a way to get paid off so i could keep the trillions of dollars and not have one in my way.. as you see i dislike them.. but sadly ive seen too many owners of vanagons not torque the crank bolt properly due to exhaust system.. then some idiot turns the crank bolt ccw and it somehow cracks loose doing what issue he now has... old dasher/quantium/4000 same things happen too..
unless you do th 31/4 turn via locking the crank by flywheel/main bolts w/chain or lock.. no way installed you can.. and no way to fit a air tool to it to try to tighten either.. so honestly common issue..
my guess is guy who worked on it screwed up.. left something on crank bolt.. hit key.. loosened it with a thud.. did not know better and he is now screwed..
but that flair and few gal of fuel = bon fire worth roasting weenies on.. at least h egot something for his aggrivation..
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Vanagons are the best vehicle VW ever made.
There is no difficulty properly tightening the crank bolt on any of the VWs including Vanagons or Quantums if you have decent tools. I've done plenty of crank bolts on vanagons with turbo-diesels installed and haven't had any issues. Using air tools to tighten any of the VW crank bolts is just wrong.
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sadly i said that last page... but ignored i am..
Sometimes it is hard to understand what the hell you are saying when you speak like James Joyce and Yoda rolled into one. 8):P:D;D
Sent from Outer Space!
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Vanagons are the best vehicle VW ever made.
There is no difficulty properly tightening the crank bolt on any of the VWs including Vanagons or Quantums if you have decent tools. I've done plenty of crank bolts on vanagons with turbo-diesels installed and haven't had any issues. Using air tools to tighten any of the VW crank bolts is just wrong.
what about the quantum 5 cyl? and all the audi's equipped with the 5? the crank bolt calls for 495 ft lbs..
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#250 on a 2' bar does the trick.
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Vanagons are the best vehicle VW ever made.
There is no difficulty properly tightening the crank bolt on any of the VWs including Vanagons or Quantums if you have decent tools. I've done plenty of crank bolts on vanagons with turbo-diesels installed and haven't had any issues. Using air tools to tighten any of the VW crank bolts is just wrong.
what about the quantum 5 cyl? and all the audi's equipped with the 5? the crank bolt calls for 495 ft lbs..
Anything on a small car requiring that much torque makes me suspicious.
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#250 on a 2' bar does the trick.
so, basically, stand on the end of my 2ft breaker bar? lol..
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Math to calculate foot pounds isn't rocket surgery.
Why would the torque make you suspicious? Unlike the regular VW, 5&6 cyls crank sprockets never fail unless not tight.
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When a normal thing, like a crank bolt, is suddenly out of the ordinary by needing 2x the torque every other one does, that's suspicious.
I'm sure there's a reason, but is it a piece of brilliance or is it covering up a deficiency? I've learned a lot in life by questioning things
that seem odd.
The 617 Merc has a 27mm@250ft/lbs and they aren't problematic, how big is the one on the Audi 5cyl?
I'm yet to see a 1.6 VW one fail either that was not left loose, I keep hearing they do and understand the AAZ had a prob
with the serp belt. Which is the same as saying I've never seen one fail in person, since mine are never loose.
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When a normal thing, like a crank bolt, is suddenly out of the ordinary by needing 2x the torque every other one does, that's suspicious.
I'm sure there's a reason, but is it a piece of brilliance or is it covering up a deficiency? I've learned a lot in life by questioning things
that seem odd.
The 617 Merc has a 27mm@250ft/lbs and they aren't problematic, how big is the one on the Audi 5cyl?
I'm yet to see a 1.6 VW one fail either that was not left loose, I keep hearing they do and understand the AAZ had a prob
with the serp belt. Which is the same as saying I've never seen one fail in person, since mine are never loose.
the 617 takes a BIGGER crank bolt, with ALOT less torque..
the reason the audi bolt freaks me out, is i have never worked on an engine that needs ~500 ft lbs of torque on the friggen crank bolt..
250 ft lbs should be enough to keep pretty much any balancer bolted to any automotive engine...
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Me neither on the high torque.
There is a lot more to that stuff than meets the eye though.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
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They are 27MM, and you have to read carefully that NM-Ft/LB translation can be a bear;
Install vibration damper central bolt.
Vehicles with long center bolt (110 mm) :
Insert counter-hold tool 3419 and tighten crankshaft vibration damper/crankshaft toothed belt sprocket center bolt.
160 Nm (118 ft lb) plus 180°(1/2 turn additional) the additional 1/2 turn can be completed in several stages.
Vehicles with short central bolt (65 mm) :
Coat threads and bolt head contact surface of central bolt with AMV 188001 02.
Insert counterhold 3419 and secure vibration damper/crankshaft sprocket.
Tightening torque: 460 Nm (340 ft lb) .
But if you aren't big enough to tighten that, you use Audi 2079 (http://www.toolsource.com/prod_images/114697.jpg)to reduce measured torque to 250 ft/lb
My truck has a much stronger keyway and pressed on timing gears, but still uses 4 smaller bolts at 92 ft/lb .ea for similar clamp force and bolt stretch.
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That's a bit more reasonable.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
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yes, 340 ft lbs seems alot less astronomical, albeit a bit high still...
i could live with 340 ft lbs, i can actually achieve that without a half-mile long cheater pipe!
honestly, my biggest worry, was if a single rod could handle that kinda torque..
i fill up #1 cylinder w/ soft rope (with both valves closed) to hold the crank from turning..
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Ok... I did it. Sorry it took so long. My timeline was wildly optimistic.
Took the outer belt off the crank wheel. Noticed again that the crank wheel was wobbly. First very bad sign.
Made sure it was in gear. Turned crank wheel with my hand and it spun, not really easily but I could do it. No need for a wrench on the crank wheel. By hand I could turn the crank wheel while the timing belt was attached to the ip and upper camshaft. The whole time, the flywheel sat there lamely... and evidently terminally.
Turned flywheel with a screwdriver. The teeth are still attached to the wheel.
Knowing all this; Any chance that it's the broken fly wheel bolts?
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Ummmmmmmmm.................................................. :'(
Sheared crank in there............................someplace..................... :o
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the crank gear is toast llike he been told since my 1st reply.. it sheared its toof off and now has none like a person in wv...
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I have all my teeth-- thank you very much.
I think (even before your first post) we all knew what this was, it's just shocking and very, very sad to confirm it. As much as I've enjoyed dallying in the obscure idi world, the replacement engine will be a proper tdi. Thanks all for your help in diagnosing here, especially the brilliant and venerable CRSMP5. Best wishes--
Andrew
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sadly i have seen a new one break on install.. the crappy cast steel sux on its toof... how can you tell.. when you remove i tlook at how its broken.. it was a torque did nto feel right thing.. pulled it back off the tooth fell off..
normally i see them fail when broken timming belt.. ok you fix the rod/head so on. but the force o fit actually popped the crank bolt loose..
sadly vanagon/dasher the old 1.5 ive seen quite a few come loose by say someone forgetting wrench on crank.. hit key.. then they can never get i ttight again vs say a bunny where they would air gun it on..
i am just courious why yours failed.. brain farts happen and my guess i swas torqued but not 90* turned.. or the crank sprocket failed.. tooth shapped off when trying to do the turn.. :(
but pulling head.. set of valves.. checking rod heights.. can be fixed pretty easy... sadly id pull th eblock so i could lock the crank via other end to do the turn on the crank bolt..