VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Gizmoman on March 03, 2013, 11:53:56 am
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I'm slowly fitting the bits back together and found that the block heater on the block I bought (from a great guy on this forum) would be tough to get out - so I modified the fabricated motor mount some more.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BCxwzX2uZfw/UTOisQvC4lI/AAAAAAAABis/PVLNKJIpdh0/s720/DSC00322.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iOFSerfYv3E/UTOirXnJUjI/AAAAAAAABic/mUYum23hPb4/s720/DSC00319.JPG)
First question, is this a good heater to use or are there better/worse ones? This one was coated with silicone. Not sure if that means it was leaking, or the PO just wanted to make sure it didn't. Second question, is a sealer required - all there is to seal it is an O-ring. The bore is in good shape (not pitted) but I kinda don't trust it either. It does fit quite snug once it's in there though. I've no experience with block heaters and would appreciate any advice from the cold climate folks.
Also, if anyone has one or two spare 12 point bolts that hold a K14 to the exhaust manifold, I'd be happy to buy them as I'm missing one. They are 10-1.5 x 46 mm.
I may resort to replacing all four with grade 12 SHCSs but I like the way these torque up and they have a nice flange on em as well.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KeQXPZJ8Kso/UTOit5G98WI/AAAAAAAABjE/RkjVI2A_GCI/s720/DSC00314.JPG)
In the photo above you can also see the new 1/8" EGT port. The lack of that is why I'm rebuilding the engine (no EGT to sense I was cooking the #4 piston) ;D
- Block heater sealing
- 12 point 10 mm K-14 turbo bolts.
Any help appreciated - thanks.
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They work, I would buy a new one as they are cheap, and I think I did use sealant on mine even thought it probobly wasn't needed, just since it's a pain to get to in a Rabbit.
Further, I always figured that if I lived somewhere that got seriously cold, I'd install more than one. They work, but they are kinda small.
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I prefer the hose heater in the bypass hose. Easier and more out of harm's way...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-y6mLQ76RZw8/TuEWcEXmaII/AAAAAAAAAfc/gu2xBlqgFLQ/s640/IMG_8930.JPG)
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I like the ones that go inline and have a circulating pump built in
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I prefer the hose heater in the bypass hose. Easier and more out of harm's way...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-y6mLQ76RZw8/TuEWcEXmaII/AAAAAAAAAfc/gu2xBlqgFLQ/s640/IMG_8930.JPG)
Is that bought or made? I have a spacer piece in that hose already on my AAZ to use the 1.6L hose, looks like it'd be a good use for it.
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can get em at your local auto parts place prob no problem.
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The heaters that splices into the rad hose is more prone to burning your car down if it malfunctions. The ones that go in the freeze plug has a much lesser chance of it.
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Ill haveta post up some pics of the 1000 watt 120vac kim hotstart tank heaters we use on gens. Its a little large about the size of a 20 oz plastic coke bottle. Id like to use one but its a little bulky. It has a snap disc tstat built in in wide ranges of temps. The freeze plug ones are ok but i use sealer cause i dont wanna have to drain it down if it leaks. These heaters we use would work on a small v8 and hold 100-120f on the coldest days
Hey hook your heater into a timer you can kick it on like 2-2.5 hours before you leave for work in the am? Thats watt i do........ Get it? ....watt.........folks is this thing on?
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The heaters that splices into the rad hose is more prone to burning your car down if it malfunctions. The ones that go in the freeze plug has a much lesser chance of it.
Call me skeptical. They are thermostatic and shut off when they reach 175F. (Oh, and they're surrounded by water.)
The freeze-plug units are more likely to fail, since they are more exposed to debris, salt-spray and leakage from valve-cover oil. That's why I changed to the hose units.
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I find they outlast the regular freeze plugs
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I find they outlast the regular freeze plugs
Thanks, turbogreasel - I knew if I waited long enough, I'd hear the answer I was looking for ;D
Would you add a sealer (silicone or something else) or just insert and tighten the screw?
Again, I'm in So Cal so I don't need serious heat - just got it (for free) and wanted to have it there - just don't need it leaking.
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SO CAL!?!?
What do you even need a block heater for!? LOL!
What is your lowest yearly temperature?? 45f?
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Real diesels just come with one I think. I'd clean the hole, and use a touch of rubber lube, clear synthetic, or marine grease.
I don't need the cold start thing either.
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SO CAL!?!?
What do you even need a block heater for!? LOL!
What is your lowest yearly temperature?? 45f?
I know a guy here with a powerstroke that I don't think his glowplugs have worked in ten years....
Daily driver.
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Power Stroke is DI, shouldn't need them. I don't need my glows on my M-TDI unless it is below -10C.
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Yea but its nicer on the engine. Yea thAt little red one is nice i wish the temp was a little lower tho.
Those do last longer than the freeze plug ones. When we use the tank ones ( which are similar to that red one), you can get metal hose tees to splice into a hose. They even make freeze plugs that have a pipe thread hole in them. Attach a hose barb and bam good to go. Ill take some block heater install pics in the next few days to give you guys ideas
The outlet of a block heater going into the center rear freeze plug would be perfect. Maybe splice into the lower rad hose for a pickup. Mount it down low a obe the driveshaft maybe
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Earlier 7.3 ps had glow plugs i kno nuthin bout the newer stuff
I stole a pic of those heaters. It would be nice to get a threaded freeze plug for the heater outlet
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii563/hillfolkvwdude/3C1DB247-64E0-44F7-93EA-6734CAEBDEF3-2066-000001BD7B34B290.jpg)
Heres their pdf
http://www.kimhotstartheaters.com/pdf/tps_pages.pdf
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Earlier 7.3 ps had glow plugs i kno nuthin bout the newer stuff
I stole a pic of those heaters. It would be nice to get a threaded freeze plug for the heater outlet
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii563/hillfolkvwdude/3C1DB247-64E0-44F7-93EA-6734CAEBDEF3-2066-000001BD7B34B290.jpg)
Heres their pdf
http://www.kimhotstartheaters.com/pdf/tps_pages.pdf
Yeah they have them, but being DI they do not need them until below freezing. Much like your TDI lol.
Nifty heater.
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Power Stroke is DI, shouldn't need them. I don't need my glows on my M-TDI unless it is below -10C.
That's interesting, I don't know jack about PS's, I have to fix a few things on his soon though.
Fuel leak around the filter pot in the valley for one.
I spent some time in the winter in NC with a PD TDI and it seemed annoyed when one did not let the glow
plugs cycle till the light went off. It was pretty new at the time, temps probably in the high 20'sF if that.
It didn't "need" them to start, but it complained about a short or no glow start when cold.
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Real diesels just come with one I think. I'd clean the hole, and use a touch of rubber lube, clear synthetic, or marine grease.
I don't need the cold start thing either.
Sounds good, I've got a bit of marine grease - thanks.
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The heaters that splices into the rad hose is more prone to burning your car down if it malfunctions. The ones that go in the freeze plug has a much lesser chance of it.
Call me skeptical. They are thermostatic and shut off when they reach 175F. (Oh, and they're surrounded by water.)
The freeze-plug units are more likely to fail, since they are more exposed to debris, salt-spray and leakage from valve-cover oil. That's why I changed to the hose units.
Freeze plug heaters more likely to fail? How did yours fail? A heatet is a very simple device and should last a long long time if designed well, made with good quality materials w good workmanship. Freeze plug heaters has no thermostat (that can fail), it does not have 2 hose clamp connections that can fail, it puts all the energy into the coolant (hose heaters lose some energy heating the ambient air), freeze plug heaters is less of a fire hazzard. Sounds to me freeze plug heater is a better choice.
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Freeze plug heaters more likely to fail? How did yours fail? A heatet is a very simple device and should last a long long time if designed well, made with good quality materials w good workmanship. Freeze plug heaters has no thermostat (that can fail), it does not have 2 hose clamp connections that can fail, it puts all the energy into the coolant (hose heaters lose some energy heating the ambient air), freeze plug heaters is less of a fire hazzard. Sounds to me freeze plug heater is a better choice.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iOFSerfYv3E/UTOirXnJUjI/AAAAAAAABic/mUYum23hPb4/s720/DSC00319.JPG)
I figured if I didn't put it back into the block, I'd use it to warm my coffee ;D
Its about as simple as it gets - unless it leaks and as 745 turbogreasel mentioned, a bit of marine grease on the O-ring should take care of that. The hole it fits into is in perfect condition (no pitting) so I should get a good seal.
As for glow plugs, even though it only gets to "45" here (So Cal), having only three of four working almost doubled my crank time in the morning. After all, this is an IDI not DI and needs a bit of help.
The block heater will never get plugged in unless I visit the North in the winter months - and I just may.
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Freeze plug heaters more likely to fail? How did yours fail? A heatet is a very simple device and should last a long long time if designed well, made with good quality materials w good workmanship. Freeze plug heaters has no thermostat (that can fail), it does not have 2 hose clamp connections that can fail, it puts all the energy into the coolant (hose heaters lose some energy heating the ambient air), freeze plug heaters is less of a fire hazzard. Sounds to me freeze plug heater is a better choice.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iOFSerfYv3E/UTOirXnJUjI/AAAAAAAABic/mUYum23hPb4/s720/DSC00319.JPG)
I figured if I didn't put it back into the block, I'd use it to warm my coffee ;D
Its about as simple as it gets - unless it leaks and as 745 turbogreasel mentioned, a bit of marine grease on the O-ring should take care of that. The hole it fits into is in perfect condition (no pitting) so I should get a good seal.
As for glow plugs, even though it only gets to "45" here (So Cal), having only three of four working almost doubled my crank time in the morning. After all, this is an IDI not DI and needs a bit of help.
The block heater will never get plugged in unless I visit the North in the winter months - and I just may.
I installed a Zerostart block heater that looks just like yours in my Jetta 2 winters ago and have not used it once, my Jetta starts fine w/o it in CT winters.
I would suggest looking up the mfg install instructions and just follow it. If the o-ring is in good shape and the mating block surface is clean amd you tighten it correctly it's not gonna leak.
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I find they outlast the regular freeze plugs
I am curios if this is personal experience or from what you read on the www.
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OE Freeze plugs are mostly sheet metal, and rust out, the flange on the block heaters is way thicker. The only time they fail is if you run water without coolant for a looong time and the screw rusts through.It's possible the o ring could dry out, but it's just a generic rubber ring if you did need a fresh one.
I've been a mechanic since 93, so I've looked at a few motors, and personally had a few where all the freeze plugs needed replacement, but the heater sealed fine(although it may or may not electrically function).
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I believe the heater is made by Temro. http://www.phillipsandtemro.com/userfiles/file/ZEROSTART_2012_CATALOG(1).pdf (http://www.phillipsandtemro.com/userfiles/file/ZEROSTART_2012_CATALOG(1).pdf)
The numbers are:
400 watts
115 Volts
LR1843
It's made in Canada so it's gotta hold up right?
I didn't find any install instructions but browsing the site and install diagrams leads me to believe there's not much more than tightening the screw.
I'll stick it in with some vaseline (that's sounds kinda weird) and move on.
Thanks everybody!
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I believe the heater is made by Temro. http://www.phillipsandtemro.com/userfiles/file/ZEROSTART_2012_CATALOG(1).pdf (http://www.phillipsandtemro.com/userfiles/file/ZEROSTART_2012_CATALOG(1).pdf)
The numbers are:
400 watts
115 Volts
LR1843
It's made in Canada so it's gotta hold up right?
I didn't find any install instructions but browsing the site and install diagrams leads me to believe there's not much more than tightening the screw.
I'll stick it in with some vaseline (that's sounds kinda weird) and move on.
Thanks everybody!
Can you check yours with a magnet and tell me which part is magnetic and which part is not? I know the heating element is clad with copper. The housing looks like it is nickel plated. Good quality home plumbing faucets etc are nickel plated brass usually and never rusts. If the housing is non magnetic, it is probably nickel plated brass. Mine is a Zerostart made in Canada. I'll look tomorrow and see if I have the install instructions.
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OE Freeze plugs are mostly tin, and rust out, the flange on the block heaters is way thicker. The only time they fail is if you run water without coolant for a looong time and the screw rusts through.It's possible the o ring could dry out, but it's just a generic rubber ring if you did need a fresh one.
I've been a mechanic since 93, so I've looked at a few motors, and personally had a few where all the freeze plugs needed replacement, but the heater sealed fine(although it may or may not electrically function).
Sorry for the confusion. I read your statement: "I find they outlast the regular freeze plugs" with the "they" as the hose type heater and "regular freeze plugs" as the freeze plug type heater, prompting my question, when you really meant: "freeze plug heaters outlast the freeze plugs.
Do freeze plugs rust out? If they do, it is not tin. Tin is quite rust resistant.
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Doesn't happen often but it can happen. Here's a TDI burned to the ground due to something gone wrong with a coolant hose type heater.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=269620&highlight=fire
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OE Freeze plugs are mostly tin, and rust out, the flange on the block heaters is way thicker. The only time they fail is if you run water without coolant for a looong time and the screw rusts through.It's possible the o ring could dry out, but it's just a generic rubber ring if you did need a fresh one.
I've been a mechanic since 93, so I've looked at a few motors, and personally had a few where all the freeze plugs needed replacement, but the heater sealed fine(although it may or may not electrically function).
Sorry for the confusion. I read your statement: "I find they outlast the regular freeze plugs" with the "they" as the hose type heater and "regular freeze plugs" as the freeze plug type heater, prompting my question, when you really meant: "freeze plug heaters outlast the freeze plugs.
Do freeze plugs rust out? If they do, it is not tin. Tin is quite rust resistant.
Since it seems a big deal to you, I have edited my post to read 'sheet metal' instead of 'tin'.
Yes, anything with a cord has a chance of burning your car to the ground. GCFI plug may help- your odds, as may a timer.
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SO CAL!?!?
What do you even need a block heater for!? LOL!
What is your lowest yearly temperature?? 45f?
As for glow plugs, even though it only gets to "45" here (So Cal), having only three of four working almost doubled my crank time in the morning. After all, this is an IDI not DI and needs a bit of help.
I never said the use of Plugs wasn't necessary.. My IDI's need the plugs to start even during a 25C + summer. IDI needs 4 properly working plugs to fire properly.
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I never said the use of Plugs wasn't necessary.. My IDI's need the plugs to start even during a 25C + summer. IDI needs 4 properly working plugs to fire properly.
Thanks for pointing that out. All I was saying that I was surprised that only one bad GP can cause starting issues.
I'm learning a lot about this engine from this forum. Actually, I wasn't aware that DI engines didn't rely on GP's as much as IDI's till now.
Speaking of GP's, one of mine had the tip missing. Do they slowly disintegrate, or come off in chunks? (scary). I recall the top of one of my pistons looked like it had small pebbles bouncing around in there - possibly bits of glow plugs?
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I never said the use of Plugs wasn't necessary.. My IDI's need the plugs to start even during a 25C + summer. IDI needs 4 properly working plugs to fire properly.
Thanks for pointing that out. All I was saying that I was surprised that only one bad GP can cause starting issues.
I'm learning a lot about this engine from this forum. Actually, I wasn't aware that DI engines didn't rely on GP's as much as IDI's till now.
Speaking of GP's, one of mine had the tip missing. Do they slowly disintegrate, or come off in chunks? (scary). I recall the top of one of my pistons looked like it had small pebbles bouncing around in there - possibly bits of glow plugs?
Quite possible. Check the injector spray pattern on that hole(and the others).
I've seen these motors survive a lot, isn't ideal, but they keep on trucking.
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My D24 was hard to start with only 2 glows working
Eroded tip is abnormal.
If you go to the VW dealer, and they give you a free glow plug, it's because the fed your motor one on accident.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/SVOlvo/tdi/IMG_3245.jpg)
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Did you ever use Ether on it?
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I never used ether on it but the PO may have. It was set up for WVO but I've taken all that off including the 20 gallon tank. I did try to run it on the WVO a few times - it ran but I just don't like it.
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I live in Northeast San Diego county mountains and the coldest it has been this winter is 28F I think on one frosty night. If you're on the coast it probably doesn't get below 45F. My car starts on the first crank, even in the thirties, with good glow plugs and I don't need to use the timing advance, but I do because it reduces the smoking on really cold starts (if you guys would call them that). A block heater is definitely NOT necessary unless you're planning an Alaska expedition. IIRC, the glow plugs come on when the engine temperature is below about 100F... there have been days when they did not come on at all.
My Cummins Dodge doesn't even have glow plugs at all, it only has an air intake heater and I disconnected it because it makes no difference for the temperatures I'm seeing, it always starts immediately, on a cold day with no starting aids of any kind at all.
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Well a vw idi needs glow plugs for the first cold start even if its 95f out. Let it run 10 seconds and shut it off and on the restart you wouldnt need em. A burnt tip is an injector issue or ether 99% of the time. Nope u gotta have some glow plugs or it wont go. I never tried a steep hill and pop starting though :)
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They bump start pretty well with no glow plugs... I think the reason they cycle the plugs at 95 degrees might be more for emissions than actual necessity.
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Well a vw idi needs glow plugs for the first cold start even if its 95f out. Let it run 10 seconds and shut it off and on the restart you wouldnt need em. A burnt tip is an injector issue or ether 99% of the time. Nope u gotta have some glow plugs or it wont go. I never tried a steep hill and pop starting though :)
Steep hill and pop starting works quite well as the engine RPM is much closer to actual operating range rather than the low RPM of the starter. Did I mention I live on a steep hill? ;)
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About time with your stupid block heater picture hillfolk you dork.
120vac. 1000 watts 5/8 hose nipples. Cold water in bottom hot out the top. They make higher wattage ones but that will warm your car up to 100 in an hour at 20deg F id bet.
Gens are always warm but every once in a while i get to replace a dead one. They start warming fast and sound a little like a coffee pot.
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii563/hillfolkvwdude/3C1DB247-64E0-44F7-93EA-6734CAEBDEF3-2066-000001BD7B34B290.jpg)
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Kim hotstart may have the freeze plugs with pipe threads in them so you can add a hose nipple. I just worked on a gm 3.0 liter 4 cyl that had them on it today for the block heater.
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I just put the block heater in cause it was free and Crazy Andy was kind enough to include the 110 V cord. I certainly wont need it now (in San Diego) but maybe someday I will - never know.
Still waiting on some parts. . . First set of mains I ordered came in one size under and I need stock as the crank is dandy.
Second set came in and when I pulled the vacuum sealed card out of the box, I counted nine bearings (but the correct size).
I'm still waiting for the new set. I was almost tempted to stick the old ones back in and move on.
Still learning patience ;D
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If the old ones plastigage within spec for new parts (usually do) then you are better off reusing them (in the same locations). Changing them just introduces new wear to the crank journals.
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If the old ones plastigage within spec for new parts (usually do) then you are better off reusing them (in the same locations). Changing them just introduces new wear to the crank journals.
Thanks libbydiesel - good point. The crank is going into a better block (which may not matter). However, I had the old bearings all arranged in order of locationand when I decided to change blocks, I tossed 'em in a box and ordered new ones (three times now). Should have written numbers on them. I am re-using the thrust bearings though. Even in the different block, end play is well within spec. The good news is, I welded and machined the end of the crank for a nice press-fit of a new TDI "D" sprocket and bolt - should go faster now ;D
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A different block is gonna have a different crush pattern. So you are back to a new wear pattern still. You may as well polish the crank as best u can and put in the new bearings
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Thanks,
The crank is in, torqued, and sittin' on new bearings after I finally got the full and correct set - spins dandy. The journals were perfect.
Too bad I didn't just keep a build thread going when I started over a year ago - I've got bits scattered all over this forum ;D