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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: vwzzuk on February 14, 2013, 09:44:24 pm
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I just built a 1.6TD engine and have it running. It is a hybrid motor. I'm using a redone 1.9AAZ TD head, 1.9 injectors and a brand new AAZ (ecco version) injection pump. The AAZ injection pump was purchased about a year ago (Europe version new pump made by Bosch) from Prothe. Now before everyone flames me for this, the injection pump is not a standard pump from Prothe. It is a brand new Bosch brand IP that came from Europe. He bought a batch of them. I don't know what the application was but it was sold to me as an AAZ ecco pump and I understand untouched.
Here's my problem: The injection pump has to be severely advanced (toward the head) in order for the engine to run OK. It has very hard starting if timed with the IP positioned near the center of its travel like any other normal IP. Engine doesn't want to start and run like all the other pumps in the standard timing position. It runs advanced OK but loud as marbles. Runs better & quieter yet when warmed up at engine operating temps. The pump has a total maximum travel distance of approximately 2.0 mm. It will turn 1.0mm each direction from center. When I pull out the cold start, its louder, when I push it in, its quieter.
I'm using an older IP pulley with two lock pin holes. Currently, the woodruff key is at 3:00 position and the timing mark on the IP pulley is up where it should be. However, when you look at the pump center line on the nose, it is way advanced past the mark on the IP bracket.
Question: Could it be that the IP is internally 180 degrees out and has to be extremely advanced to run?
Notice on the pics: how close the injector is to the IP body; How advanced it is when you compare the notch on the nose and the mark on the IP bracket. They are about 1/4" apart in advanced position. Most of the ones I've seen have been about 1/8th" maximum.
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Now before everyone flames me for this, the injection pump is not a standard pump from Prothe. It is a brand new Bosch brand IP that came from Europe. He bought a batch of them. I understand untouched.
And you believed him? Another sucker. ;)
I have seen my own pump with extremely worn tolerances on the high pressure side not be able to make the necessary pressures to pop the injector properly. Meaning you need extreme advance in order to get it to pop and run correctly.
It is VERY possible the internals are 180* out, I read it is a common mistake for him. He does business at volume.. so you know it is not him personally putting each together.
You say the keyway is at 3 o'clock.. do you mean the pumps shaft keyway while at TDC?
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Yes, the woodruff key on the shaft is 3:00 at TDC.
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That is incorrect. It should be over near 11 o'clock looking the pumps snout dead-on.
Unless you have some bastard AAZ pump, which I have not come across yet ;). All 1.5, 1.6 N/A, 1.6 TD, 1.9 AAZ, 1.9 TDI, 2.5 Peugeot, and 2.5 Land Rover I have seen and had apart have had the pumps #1 TDC with the key way in the vicinity of 11 o'clock.
Looks like your issue is that you are not firing the right cylinder at the right time!! Crazy how they will run eh?
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I'm going to double check the keyway, rotate the pulley 180 degrees and retime it with my dial indicator and see if it makes any difference.
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I think going 180 will be too far in the other direction. You want the pumps key way under the pulleys hub to be around the 11 o'clock mark.
Put the key way so it is pointing straight up, and then rotate it CCW to that next tough spot. That is the correct TDC mark.
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You were correct, the woodruf key was at 11:00.
My AAZ pulley does not have two holes for the locking pin. Only a singular one. So, I'll have to figure out a way to get it close.
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Update:
1) finishing up the AAZ pump, I timed the IP purposely at 180 degrees out and it would not run at all.
2) I put another rebuilt 1.6 injection pump on the engine today and switched out my injectors with a second set of 1.6 rebuilt ones.
I'm getting the exact same results: won't start unless the IP is in its fully most advanced position on its mounts. So, its not the previous IP.
Why would both my IP's need to be fully advanced, toward the head, to get this engine running? Mechanical timing is correct.
Faulty injection pump bracket? or IP bracket locates the pump on the engine block incorrectly? or ????
I'm stumped.
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All else being equal*, I'd just slip the IP pulley & belt a tooth and get some room to move the IP both ways.
I can't say why it isn't lined-up, but if the remedy works, I'd roll with it.
*(If the cam and crank are properly aligned with absolute certainty.)
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The head is the largest variable. I don't know anything about an AAZ head on 1.6 block. The height diff is in the block.
Compression? Cam? Cam/crank/pump gears? Are the brackets and all 1.6? I've seen them tweaked but not that bad. Are you positive
TDC is really TDC? I'd back up and double check everything at this point myself.
edit, this might be a little beneath you, but is it ungodly cold and do your glowplugs work? Figured it was worth asking.. :)
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Block and head are in time. Triple checked it. Flywheel TDC marking is dead on.
Compression is very good, but needs to be fully broken-in properly on the street.
Cam is identical to the 1.6 cam I have that I can see regarding lob positions.
Stock 1.6 crank gear, cam gear, injection pump gear.
Brand new glow plugs working.
Still thinking about possible variables. Hummmmmm.
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Pump must be farked three ways to Sunday then. haha You've exhausted all other things to do with running properly..
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But two bad pumps? Stranger things have happened but damn.
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Alright, so you've tried two sets of injectors.. and two separate pumps..
I have not seen a faulty IP bracket, or even how one would exist..
To be clear here;
My AAZ pulley does not have two holes for the locking pin. Only a singular one. So, I'll have to figure out a way to get it close.
You are not using the locking hole in the pulley?? If it is a 1.9 pulley and 1.9 pump why would the 1.9 pulley not line up for the pumps TDC?
Are you absolutely 100% the mark you have as TDC is actually TDC?? This is a fresh built motor, did you use a Gasser flywheel? Are you by chance using the 6* mark for the gassers? Just throwing it out there.. a picture of your flywheel through the inspection hole will clear this up. Please and thanks!
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Alright, so you've tried two sets of injectors.. and two separate pumps..
I have not seen a faulty IP bracket, or even how one would exist..
To be clear here;
My AAZ pulley does not have two holes for the locking pin. Only a singular one. So, I'll have to figure out a way to get it close.
You are not using the locking hole in the pulley?? If it is a 1.9 pulley and 1.9 pump why would the 1.9 pulley not line up for the pumps TDC?
Are you absolutely 100% the mark you have as TDC is actually TDC?? This is a fresh built motor, did you use a Gasser flywheel? Are you by chance using the 6* mark for the gassers? Just throwing it out there.. a picture of your flywheel through the inspection hole will clear this up. Please and thanks!
What he said, I verify ALL my flywheels manually as having a correct TDC on new-to-me motors. I usually paint a mark or such. I envy the locking tools the TDI's have for that.
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Are you absolutely 100% the mark you have as TDC is actually TDC?? This is a fresh built motor, did you use a Gasser flywheel? Are you by chance using the 6* mark for the gassers?
Can the crank be 6o off without valve clash?
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For the 1.9 Pulley, it only has one locking pin location. So, I timed it to the stock location and marked the tooth opposite to it and the timing belt. I used that tooth mark as my 180 degree out mark. It would not run 180 degrees out.
With the 1.6 pump, it has two holes but I only used the stock TDC locking pin location for testing.
Diesel flywheel timing mark is bang on. I also verified it with testing the location of the piston through the combustion chamber with the injector & glow plug removed.
I don't see how the crank and cam can be off TDC mark or 6 degrees when they are tied together by a new timing belt when timed correctly.
I'm using a stock 1.6 Injection pump bracket (the stamped steel version) compared to the 1.9 cast bracket (that only fits on the 1.9 block).
Going to dig in into it again today.
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Wait, my 1.6 pump pulleys only have one timing lock pin hole. It has a mark to line up too. I'm looking at one hanging on the wall now.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
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Wait, my 1.6 pump pulleys only have one timing lock pin hole. It has a mark to line up too. I'm looking at one hanging on the wall now.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Two different kinds. Early ones I believe that had the two holes.
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Yes, I have both 1.6 version pulleys.
I put a new timing belt on to see if there was a difference between the two belts. Nada. Both have 135 teeth and run the same though one is easier to get on the cogs.
I'm going to move the belt a tooth, retime it and see if it makes it run right with a better amount of adjustable advance.
I'm perplexed. I've done a number of rebuilds and I have never run into this before with any of them. Totally weird.
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I don't see how the crank and cam can be off TDC mark or 6 degrees when they are tied together by a new timing belt when timed correctly.
But are you using the correct TDC mark on the flywheel is what I meant.. If you could snap a picture down through the inspection hole for where you see the flywheel at TDC we could rule that right out.
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Sorry for the confusion. Yes, the correct TDC mark is being used on the flywheel. Same position for the cam and IP using the correct German timing tools.
If I show you a picture, you would think I'm from a different planet, and have it all wrong. LOL! So, I guess I must say that you caught me. The engine is in a different vehicle, using a different transmission and machined flywheel with only one mark at TDC. Now before you say, "ah, there's your problem", let me humbly suggest that I've done over 30 of these and all done the exact same way without issues and all running fine.
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Well until this moment, I had no knowledge of your experience levels. ;)
So. If you have done 30+ of these conversions, maybe you should tell us what the problem is? LOL
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No, no, no, no. Iron sharpens iron. That's why I need YOU!
LOL!
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Wait, my 1.6 pump pulleys only have one timing lock pin hole. It has a mark to line up too. I'm looking at one hanging on the wall now.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Two different kinds. Early ones I believe that had the two holes.
Ahh, gotcha. I can never remember stuff like that, just saw one hanging on the wall and wondered.
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Still trying to figure this out.
Two questions:
1) What is the total timing movement (from Advance to Retard) measure on your injection pump?
2) Is the range of timing travel (from advanced to Retard on the injection pump) the same on all 1.6 & 1.9 injection pumps?