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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: scrounger on February 08, 2013, 05:34:09 am

Title: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 08, 2013, 05:34:09 am
I am more interested in getting better fuel economy than performance. I drive below 60 mph 95% of the time and accelerate mildly, usually taking a mile to get to 60.

I have traced through some threads about camshafts and almost all topics are based on getting more performance. I saw the spread sheet graphs that theman posted discussing overlap.

Any idea on what camshaft would improve fuel economy.  I am thinking less overlap and lift. but am unsure as to timing and lobe centers.  Is there a special marine cam? I don't think I could afford a custom cam.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: CrazyAndy on February 08, 2013, 05:53:23 am
The AAZs  were available as an industrial motor that had a cam with shorter lift durations and very little overlap that were made to run at a fixed RPM.  I don't know where you'd find one, but that might be the way to go if you plan on goinf for maximum, rev-holding highway economy.  But the downside would be poor high rev performance and less power, but you are going for economy, so that won't matter to you.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: theman53 on February 08, 2013, 05:55:56 am
Being a diesel I think you want the most air in as possible per stroke. The cam in a gasser will increase vacuum and open more, but there it is a fuel and air mix at approx 14.7:1 ratio. In that the bigger the cam the more fuel you use. In our diesels the more cam the more air, in turn the cleaner the burn. The only thing that will use more fuel is if you set your pump to inject more or press harder on the go pedal. I would think if you got the most performance cam you could get and not touch your fuel settings would yeild the best milage.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 08, 2013, 06:38:54 am
Thanks for the responses.
I got an industrial AAZ cam on ebay for 40.

I agree that these engines need lots of air but I thought that having lots of overlap would tend to reduce cylinder pressure at lower rpms.

I plan on changing the timing belt this spring. Will install cam at the same time. If it proves not to work I will put  the stock cam back in. I wonder if I will have  to change the injector timing?
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: TylerDurden on February 08, 2013, 06:52:16 am
I skimmed a couple of those cam threads and IMO camshaft tweeking seems like the most difficult and complicated way to improve efficiency, with the highest potential for the opposite result. Just my .02...

Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 08, 2013, 09:54:21 am
I am not going to get it converted real soon but am acquiring the materials.

The powerband will be more like a TDI,  Peak torque about 2000 rpm and done by 4000. My best cruise speed will be a bit lower, just thinking can a TDI transmission be fitted? I have a 2.95 top gear now with 25" tires.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: bbob203 on February 08, 2013, 09:57:43 am
I am not going to get it converted real soon but am acquiring the materials.

The powerband will be more like a TDI,  Peak torque about 2000 rpm and done by 4000. My best cruise speed will be a bit lower, just thinking can a TDI transmission be fitted? I have a 2.95 top gear now with 25" tires.

Yes it can i thought about doing it but was told that tall of a ring and pinion wouldnt work out to well.

You would need pedal cluster for hydro clutch or manual cable for the 02a transmission. cable operated shifterbox. a gearbox obviously and new clutch kit. Some holes here and there and maybe a few cut outs and your good to go.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 08, 2013, 12:25:37 pm
Thanks for the responses.
I got an industrial AAZ cam on ebay for 40.

I agree that these engines need lots of air but I thought that having lots of overlap would tend to reduce cylinder pressure at lower rpms.

I plan on changing the timing belt this spring. Will install cam at the same time. If it proves not to work I will put  the stock cam back in. I wonder if I will have  to change the injector timing?


smaller cam will net you less power, and in the end, less economy, because you will have to push the throttle further to get the same power..

valve overlap is at a minimum on diesels, because there simply isnt enough room @ TDC for the valves to be open at ALL.. valve overlap is for gassers, diesels really dont need any valve overlap..

i would think that a Dr. Diesel cam would be a way better bet than a low lift, low duration industrial cam..
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: Blownoiler on February 08, 2013, 03:24:58 pm
I wouldn't advise copying the petrol engine guidelines when looking for economy, as mentioned above shorter duration will make the engine work harder because of the lower volumetric efficiency (more power wasted trying to inhale and exhale air/exhaust gas). Increasing V.E. will give better results. A well designed inlet manifold tuned to your cruising revs could lower pumping losses. Experimenting with the camshafts timing can improve V.E. in a particular rev range too if your engine has sufficient piston to valve clearance, advance the cam for more low end (at the expense of top end), retard for more top end (at the expense of low end)
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 08, 2013, 04:10:07 pm
I am looking for running the engine up to 2800 maybe 3000 max.

Industrial engines are rated for max power from 3600-4200 rpm.

I am figuring that by closing the intake earlier I might be able to keep some air from bleeding out the exhaust valve while there is overlap, increasing the charge in the combustion chamber at lower rpm. More O2 should equal more torque (aka efficency) I'll let you guys roll by me at 70-80 mph.

If it was more efficient for having a bigger cam on the lower speed engine then surly the VW engineers would have specified a road cam in their industrial engines.

Maybe you guys are right. I think I owe it to myself to find out. A used cam was the only way for me to go. No regrinds or new cam money is in the budget.
Appreciate everyones comments.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: Blownoiler on February 08, 2013, 10:21:31 pm
I did a cam timing experiment on a Toyota 2lt engine a few years back,  I got 2 extra keyways milled into the cam gear for about $60. by a local machine shop, that gave me 5 degree and 7 degree slots to play with. First up I advanced the cam 7 deg., and was expecting better power everywhere because of supposedly better (earlier opening exhaust valve) exhaust blowdown leading to more energy available to spin the turbine plus less pumping loss, what I got wasn't quite what I expected- the engine started much easier on a cold (0deg.C) morning, power was great up to about 3000 revs then nothing much at all to the 4000 redline. I found it difficult to keep up with normal hyway traffic with no top end power, 60 mph was it, where previously the 4runner would pull 75 mph. Around town i noticed a good gain in low end torque, I hardly had to touch the gearstick at all, it would just plug along happily down to 750ish revs in top gear.  Sorry but I didn't do any mileage tests with that adjustment. After a week I couldn't stand the lack of top end power so switched the camshaft to 7 degrees retarded, cold starts took a tad longer than the standard setup, low end power was slightly down, but 3000 to 4000 revs was much better. I advanced the injector pump a few degrees to get back the low end loss, so wound up with a good power gain overall. The standard 2lt used 12 litres/100 k. after a few mods to improve power, sensible driving netted 10 litres/100k (remember these 4runners are big windsocks on the hyway, so guzzle a bit of fuel). Edit: 7 degrees is a rather large adjustment to make, but the 2lt engine has a lot of valve to piston clearance, maybe 3 or 4 degrees is doable on your engine-you will have to check the clearance before running the engine with any adjustments!
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: shorttimer on February 08, 2013, 11:09:56 pm
I don't want to sound trite, but mileage STARTS with aerodynamics. Other things help.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 09, 2013, 02:56:08 am
Thanks for the insight blown oiler.
My tach isn't working so I can't say exactly what my shift points but I am shifting if the next gear will pull smoothly, Typically I am into 5th at 30-40mph. If someone wants to pass me then so be it. It will cruise at 60 at 2-3psi. The car will run 95 mph now. I would be happy with 70-75 max speed if the fuel economy is improved some. Like you said. it is reversible if I don't like it.  Maybe a few degrees of stock cam timing advance would be a good thing to try.

Except for you, no one has said anything about personal experience with this subject. My first test will be running stock industrial cam timing.When I read your two recent posts I got two messages. One was to improve efficiency by building a new intake. Your next note was more positive to try the industrial cam. Perhaps you gained insight as to what I was trying to do.

Yep you have it there with aerodynamics short timer. The easy stuff has been done. I drive like a turtle.  My tires are rock hard. The car will coast a mile in neutral I have changed the shape of the back end, had  grill covers. The car has been mired at 55 mpg for the last year using aero mods.  Am looking to put it past 60, 64 to be precise, that is 2oz/mile. I had a post a while ago about some changes that I have made to aerodynamics. It was not well received.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: TylerDurden on February 09, 2013, 06:34:51 am
I wouldn't give much gravity to the feedback on aesthetics.

60mpg @ 55mph is probably achievable with the current aero mods and fine tuning of timing and break pressures.

65mpg will take a bit more effort (laws of diminishing returns, yadda...).
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: bbob203 on February 09, 2013, 07:19:14 am
scrounger you need to cruise on over to vwdieselparts.com forum aka the hillbilly forum and read haggars thread on tuning for smileage. I think it was called old man old rabbit both happy.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 09, 2013, 08:28:24 am
thanks Bob
I found it, Old guy Old Rabbit---both Happy. 170 pages long. :)
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: theman53 on February 09, 2013, 08:30:36 am
I still think you build a diesel to run as efficient as possible and then don't use it if you want mileage.

You were only asking about a cam, but if the over picture is looked at then I would use all synthetic grease and lube oils. Engine and trans. If you are getting 55mpg then the brakes and other parasitic draws are probably ok. It is good that it will coast a mile in neutral, but if you are coasting leave it in gear. The IP will continually inject less fuel if you use the engine for braking while coasting. You said you have boost. The #1 thing I did in my car to get more mileage was add an intercooler. I went from 38-40 mpg to 44-47mpg and the only mod I did in that time was add my IC. <-I didn't change cam shafts, but this tells me that the more cooler air you  have in the cylinder the better it is. This was a 1.5 year deal and I had the car non IC and IC about equal time in all weather and driving conditions. It wasn't one tank is what I am saying.
The last thing I noticed is my car will gain a few MPG with BP diesel. I have ran marathon, speedway, Duke, and more that I cannot think of but I consistantly get 2-4mpg better mileage with the BP diesel than anything else. I dont' run it much at all but Cetane booster will help get you more bang out of your fuel. If you goal is to lessen fuel costs adding it maybe more than the gains.

I hope you do well with the cam. It may help. It may get the same ammount of air in, but just move the power band. If that power band matches your driving better then I think you could pick up a mpg or two. Please let us know.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: theman53 on February 09, 2013, 08:31:45 am
thanks Bob
I found it, Old guy Old Rabbit---both Happy. 170 pages long. :)

Be prepared for some of the hardest to read english since CRSMP5 and a guys inability to read a Bentley Manual...Oh of course the never ending use of EH
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 09, 2013, 09:30:25 am
I read the first page and could barely read it. I thought perhaps that I did not have enough coffee. :)

I agree what I am after is the most efficiency at light loads. Having the rack open half way is not what I am doing. I assume that I will be over fueling the engine at high loads. Perhaps I can literally smoke anyone behind me :)

As far as fuel I am using my fuel from a commercial supplier delivered to my tank in bulk. The best part of it is that it is consistent for the entire bulk tank. Whether it is the best for mileage I don't know.

Impressive improving your mileage that much with an intercooler. I assume that you were able to turn around the intake elbow on top of the intake manifold. My car stills. has the original AC condenser installed. Probably a good place to mount the IC.

Fuel is the biggest expense any more of owning a car. Even with 40 mpg at $4 a gallon that is $.10 a mile or 1500 dollars a year for an average amount of driving. Purchasing fuel in bulk I feel the pain about once a year.

I'll keep rattling at you guys as long as there is some interest.

Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: theman53 on February 09, 2013, 11:03:22 am
Yeah I just flipped the intake cast elbow. Had pics somewhere on here...found in the build thread page 23 or something.
(http://a4.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/136/ad66914c789c48c289ebc2f102d41f5e/l.jpg)


This is what I said about it at the time.
"EGT is still an issue, but it was 110F the other day. I can take it up to around 1500-1600F and then it stops. It climbs much slower over 1300F than it does before that point. Now that I have been driving it for 2 months with intercooler on I have never dipped below 42mpg and have 3 tanks at 47mpg. I can only make 21psi boost now. Overall I like it now."
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 09, 2013, 01:17:06 pm
PM sent
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 09, 2013, 01:18:04 pm
I wouldn't give much gravity to the feedback on aesthetics.

60mpg @ 55mph is probably achievable with the current aero mods and fine tuning of timing and break pressures.

65mpg will take a bit more effort (laws of diminishing returns, yadda...).

it takes aerodynamics to get awesome smileage..

look at the porsche 356 that was on our forum a couple years back, AND in diesel power magazine..

it got like 68mpg IIRC? but a porsche 356 is SUPER AERODYNAMIC!! and it had a custom geared transmission for the diesel.

i would lower my break pressures to 125 bar, i believe andrew or someone said worked the best, between good atomization, and low break pressures..

i think part of my consistent good smileage, is the fact that i run 135bar (N/A) injectors in my turbo engine..

if you change from TD injectors to NA injectors, you WILL notice a difference in power (artificial timing advance) and economy from the lower pumping losses..

BTW.., it only takes 10hp to turn a 14mm bosch VE pump.. our pumps are super efficient, as compared to other similar pumps of the day..

most normal VE pumps, you can get away with a 5hp test fixture..
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: homerj1 on February 09, 2013, 01:49:16 pm
Yeah I just flipped the intake cast elbow. Had pics somewhere on here...found in the build thread page 23 or something.
(http://a4.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/136/ad66914c789c48c289ebc2f102d41f5e/l.jpg)


This is what I said about it at the time.
"EGT is still an issue, but it was 110F the other day. I can take it up to around 1500-1600F and then it stops. It climbs much slower over 1300F than it does before that point. Now that I have been driving it for 2 months with intercooler on I have never dipped below 42mpg and have 3 tanks at 47mpg. I can only make 21psi boost now. Overall I like it now."

Sorry for the hijack, although I like your engine compartment.

I have the same fuel filter on my mk1. I was going to order some car stuff on line - but am not sure of the actual fuel filter type.

My choices are
http://www.autopartsway.ca/PartList.cfm?Volkswagen/1984/Jetta/Base/1.6L_L4/allB/Air_and_Fuel_Delivery/Filters/Fuel_Filter/pagenum1/tabS

the one with the nipple end or the one that looks like an oil filter with a h20 drain. I suspect it is the latter?


thanks
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: Blownoiler on February 09, 2013, 02:29:04 pm
Thanks for the insight blown oiler.
My tach isn't working so I can't say exactly what my shift points but I am shifting if the next gear will pull smoothly, Typically I am into 5th at 30-40mph. If someone wants to pass me then so be it. It will cruise at 60 at 2-3psi. The car will run 95 mph now. I would be happy with 70-75 max speed if the fuel economy is improved some. Like you said. it is reversible if I don't like it.  Maybe a few degrees of stock cam timing advance would be a good thing to try.

Except for you, no one has said anything about personal experience with this subject. My first test will be running stock industrial cam timing.When I read your two recent posts I got two messages. One was to improve efficiency by building a new intake. Your next note was more positive to try the industrial cam. Perhaps you gained insight as to what I was trying to do.

Yep you have it there with aerodynamics short timer. The easy stuff has been done. I drive like a turtle.  My tires are rock hard. The car will coast a mile in neutral I have changed the shape of the back end, had  grill covers. The car has been mired at 55 mpg for the last year using aero mods.  Am looking to put it past 60, 64 to be precise, that is 2oz/mile. I had a post a while ago about some changes that I have made to aerodynamics. It was not well received.

I made a few other changes looking for power and found that better economy was a side benefit, basically anything that improved VE improved mileage. One mod that worked well at part load was putting a divider into the log exhaust manifold, creating 2 smaller exhaust manifold volumes rather than the one large turbulence producing factory design, I think that the gain comes from harnessing  the pulse energy of the exhaust blowdown ,  keeping gas velocity higher on its way to the turbine resulting in better v.e.  Another gain was found when trying to reduce the intake noise which was much too loud for my liking, I removed the standard inlet pipe that went from the airbox to behind the headlight and replaced it with some flexible plastic pipe, and plumbed the inlet to a cold air area behind the grill, my first attempt at this resulted in a slight drop in power, after some theorizing and experimenting I found that different lengths of pipe gave differing power/economy gains/losses at certain revs.  The Helmholtz effect is easy to take advantage of here, I wanted a gain at 3000 revs, so eventually found that a pipe length of approx. 36 inches from airbox to the bellmouthed air inlet gave a noticable result, plastic flexible pipe is cheap, you will have to experiment a bit to see what length works for your engine/rev level, and don't forget to whip up a bellmouth for the opening, I used a 2.25 inch diametre section of exhaust pipe, and flared the end by forcing it (with a large hammer) over an old large size towball (wrecked the towball too!) , though I'm sure that you will be able to find, build or buy a more pleasant looking finished product!
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: theman53 on February 09, 2013, 05:36:20 pm
Yeah I just flipped the intake cast elbow. Had pics somewhere on here...found in the build thread page 23 or something.
(http://a4.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/136/ad66914c789c48c289ebc2f102d41f5e/l.jpg)



This is what I said about it at the time.
"EGT is still an issue, but it was 110F the other day. I can take it up to around 1500-1600F and then it stops. It climbs much slower over 1300F than it does before that point. Now that I have been driving it for 2 months with intercooler on I have never dipped below 42mpg and have 3 tanks at 47mpg. I can only make 21psi boost now. Overall I like it now."

Sorry for the hijack, although I like your engine compartment.

I have the same fuel filter on my mk1. I was going to order some car stuff on line - but am not sure of the actual fuel filter type.

My choices are
http://www.autopartsway.ca/PartList.cfm?Volkswagen/1984/Jetta/Base/1.6L_L4/allB/Air_and_Fuel_Delivery/Filters/Fuel_Filter/pagenum1/tabS

the one with the nipple end or the one that looks like an oil filter with a h20 drain. I suspect it is the latter?


thanks

Yeah, it is just the MK1 filter. Thread on with the water drain on the bottom.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: 8v-of-fury on February 09, 2013, 08:14:51 pm
cheapest ones to get, and you can buy bigger elements for them too if I am not mistaken.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: nathantheengineer on February 10, 2013, 08:00:45 am
Good to see that you are still trying to crack the self-imposed mpg barrier.  Going back to the car aerodynamics, have you thought about a long nose front end, something akin to the DTV droop snoot Firenza we got in the uk?

http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/E9/881C92E8EC90EF8428375AA6A1C77E.jpg (http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/E9/881C92E8EC90EF8428375AA6A1C77E.jpg)

Would definitely help. Also have you changed the side mirrors? i cant remember?  some bullet type or even better if you removed them ( if legal where you live?)
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: bbob203 on February 10, 2013, 08:17:09 am
there's a guy on tdi club who put a tdi into a saturn and gets close to 70mpg. I bet a 1.6 td into a saturn would get you at least 60.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: TylerDurden on February 10, 2013, 10:21:12 am
Going back to the car aerodynamics, have you thought about a long nose front end, something akin to the DTV droop snoot Firenza we got in the uk?

We have the easy-peasy MK2 "big bumpers" and the mirrors (gotta have two in most states) on the >89(?) series are a bit more aero than the 86 version.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Kn8fmPM6hFA/T107L8fuHQI/AAAAAAAAAm4/jGo5Ek1eHPI/s640/IMG_9003.JPG)


I'm all for aero mods, best bang for the buck.



Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 10, 2013, 12:00:03 pm
Who can argue with the appearance of the more compact bumper and below bumper valence. I can't put my finger on it but have read that the big front bumper actually helps some.

A friend of mine gets in the 60's with a 1.6 na  and extensive body molding. He is running stock mirrors. They are far enough back that the air is pretty turbulent. 
(http://www.veloliner.com/vw/IMAG0013.JPG)
It shows how stock my car is.
and
(http://www.veloliner.com/vw/tailconejetta.JPG)
The back window, trunk lid and center support have been removed. He uses it like a minicamper.

I talked to him about my new cam, He is very interested.

Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: TylerDurden on February 11, 2013, 07:05:41 am
The flag mirrors could be ditched entirely and replaced by video cameras.

Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 11, 2013, 04:49:51 pm
the BIGGEST cam you can safely fit in the engine is going to be the one that gets you best economy.. not the smallest cam.

go ahead and change out your cam for the smaller one, report back with the results..

you want to get as much air into the cylinder as possible, as easy as possible..

low valve lift is not going to get the air in the cylinder very fast or easy..
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: wolf_walker on February 11, 2013, 05:40:24 pm
I found my bone stock 86 8v gasser Scirocco would do 38mpg combined in normal driving consistently with a very healthy and well tuned stock motor.
This is quite a bit better than most Caddys and Rabbits and Jetta's with that motor and the same gearing seem to get.  I attribute this to aerodynamics.
If I was shooting for big MPG, it'd be a TD in a Scirocco body and go from there, it isn't perfect but it's a hell of a lot slicker than anything else from VW
in that era.  If I ever move out of freaking CA I intend to do just that.

An early 924 is another interesting candidate for a high MPG "neat" diesel swap, but it'd be a little more work.  It's been done in Europe but I don't believe MPG
was the goal.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 11, 2013, 07:29:07 pm
Ror
What references do you have on fuel economy with this type of cam? There seems to be almost no information that I can reference.

Wolf. changing bodies is not an option for me. The door is open for you to do it.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: Blownoiler on February 13, 2013, 11:17:37 am
There is info on diesel performance around, but generally you have to pay for it, here's a link to one source: http://www.amazon.com/High-Performance-Diesel-Builders-Guide-Pettitt/dp/1613250622
The authors focus is on direct injection engines so there is limited info on IDI mods, still it's an interesting read with some helpful tips!  Reducing engine friction/pumping losses should get you better mileage, I can give you some energy saving ideas to ponder if you are interested!
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 13, 2013, 06:47:06 pm
My plan is to map both cams. Determine the profile and lobe centers.

My take on this is that the industrial cam is for high efficiency at lower rpm than the road cam. My fuel rack seldom goes past half throttle with this car. I can appreciate if you are trying to make 50 hp having a road cam is the tits. My engine cruises at what 15 hp? That is where I want my peak torque.

I hear a lot of discussion about what builders don't like but no real data yet.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: theman53 on February 13, 2013, 07:21:57 pm
My guess: The industrial cam will have a very narrow power band and at an RPM of about 2,800-3,000 RPM as that is where most guys use the engine for work. It maybe better maybe worse, you let us know either way.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 19, 2013, 04:18:55 pm
I got my used cam today:
 (http://www.veloliner.com/vw/industrialcam.JPG)
The weather is beyond crap at present. I am going to get a new timing belt and figure out how to install it correctly.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: Blownoiler on February 19, 2013, 06:16:03 pm
It's good to see your experiment going somewhere, don't forget to post the end result, it will be interesting to see what happens to mileage.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 20, 2013, 06:14:45 am
A preliminary measurement: Using a caliper across the peak and then 90deg away I get 8.9 mm (.35") of lift. So I would expect a bit more when done correctly.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 21, 2013, 01:05:49 pm
I had a bit of  time to put the new cam in my lathe to check out some of the specifications.
The cam has a molded in CME and Audi ooooo symbols on it. It was described as a 1.9 industrial cam.

Lobe centers 113°.
Intake max lift of .325" Exhaust max lift .340"
Duration (@ .039") intake     150° (crankshaft°)
                                   exhaust 164°

Duration total  intake     230° These are hard to measure.
                           exhaust  264°

As far as timing I don't have it in the car but probably should be close to splitting the lobe centers. Most cams are close to that.  The notch looks to be at the peak of the exhaust lobe.

Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: mzak88 on February 22, 2013, 06:41:28 am
My .02... A powerful engine is an efficient engine. I am doing similar project but with MILD performance upgrades. Free flowing exhaust - strait pipe. Have installed 02A CTN trans with 3.164 r&p, then swapped .75 5th for a .658. This will net a 100km/h cruise at 2000ish. Efficiency should naturally improve, with any luck. 
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on February 22, 2013, 11:12:28 am
I calculate my rpm at 60 at 2600. You have a nice gear ratios for economy. Being able to cruise at max torque at 2000 would be nice. What kind of mileage are you getting?
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on March 12, 2013, 11:50:12 am
As the weather slowly gets better I am thinking of putting in the new cam.

I assume that I will need a new cam cover gasket, cam drive seal, cam timing belt, adjustable roller. Probably some type of extension for my dial gauge to measure fuel timing?

Will have to time the new cam with a bar through the slot on the opposite end.


Test by rolling the motor over by hand twice. Then go.



Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: 8v-of-fury on March 12, 2013, 12:20:37 pm
I suggest the rubber upgrade that comes with the shoulder-less studs. Worth the money. I have had my rubber AHU one off easily 100 times since new, and it still goes back on and provides a perfect seal.

Any flat bar at the back that fits will do, just something that holds the cam straight is all you need. I have eyeballed it in the past when timing tools weren't there (parking lot pump change-out to get it home ;)).

Timing belt and tensioner would be a good idea to replace right now for sure while you got it apart. :)

Timing gauge is not imperative.. Prothe has a full set.. pump lock, cam lock and dial gauge plus the right adapter. Good money, and excellent quality. I have had mine since 2008. Used it over 200+ times, no issue. (I don't even touch the gauge anymore.. :/ lol)
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: vanbcguy on March 12, 2013, 01:11:59 pm
As the weather slowly gets better I am thinking of putting in the new cam.

I assume that I will need a new cam cover gasket, cam drive seal, cam timing belt, adjustable roller. Probably some type of extension for my dial gauge to measure fuel timing?

Will have to time the new cam with a bar through the slot on the opposite end.


Test by rolling the motor over by hand twice. Then go.

That's the short-but-sweet version, yup.  You've got all the right bits there.  If your car is running well right now then it would be worthwhile to check your timing before unbolting anything - that way you can both practice the procedure and ensure that you are set to the same "happy" point after the work is done.

Re: dial gauge - in the end you just need something that will hold the dial gauge in place while letting you measure the movement of the piston through the timing hole.  There are a number of adapters built for this purpose available, or you can sort out something with whatever you have in your toolbox.  IE if you have magnetic mounts and things already and your gauge has a long enough plunger you may be able to position it appropriately with the injector lines off.  It is easiest with the proper adapter though.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: 8v-of-fury on March 12, 2013, 01:16:01 pm
He has come down in price. I stand behind this product, it works very well.

http://www.hansautoparts.com/product-detail.aspx?VWDieselTimingBeltToolsandGauge.htm
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on March 12, 2013, 01:43:56 pm
thanks guys.
I have a nice dial gauge and magnetic mount Never thought about just holding it with the magnetic mount. Might work.

I figure that I want a good quality belt, seal and tensioner. I hate going to dealers. I have bought some parts from the Hans auto parts. They are cheap.

Wouldn't you know it the weather was sunny this morning now we are getting snow again.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: wolf_walker on March 12, 2013, 04:02:30 pm
There are a couple other seals up on that end of the motor it's worth wiping off the crud and looking at, might be under the inner cover depending on your setup.
There's also the huge pain in the rear motor mount on that side if it's a Rabbit that the belt has to come off to access.  Which will fail a month after you do the timing belt. :)
The later rubber VC gasket is a fine upgrade indeed.  If you have a decent hardware store you can get the studs local if you only find the gasket for sale, but it used to come as a
retrofit kit from Elring or one of those guys.

Otherwise you seem to have the jist of it.  Don't strip the allen heads holding the pulleys on, clean em out first before trying to loosen.
And don't over-tighten the T-belt.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: theman53 on March 12, 2013, 05:37:15 pm
thanks guys.
I have a nice dial gauge and magnetic mount Never thought about just holding it with the magnetic mount. Might work.

I figure that I want a good quality belt, seal and tensioner. I hate going to dealers. I have bought some parts from the Hans auto parts. They are cheap.

Wouldn't you know it the weather was sunny this morning now we are getting snow again.

Hans diesel parts is known as Prothe, do a search and you will find nothing good. The parts there are junk. I would tell you my opinion but I am biased, so I will just say as a suggestion NEVER USE ANY IMPORTANT ENGINE PARTS FROM HIM. ex. Timing belt and tensioner. Anything that could come apart and ruin the engine do not use from him. Many IDI and TDI diesels are no longer on the road as the owners thought they were getting good parts for cheap, but they just got cheap parts.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: scrounger on March 12, 2013, 05:41:33 pm
I hear you about cheap parts. I have some lights and door handles from them. The thought of having a chinese timing belt is kind of scarry

Whom would you suggest? Guess I didn't say that very well before.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: theman53 on March 12, 2013, 05:49:54 pm
http://www.autohausaz.com/index.html
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/

I use them for most things. Good stuff. Depends on years of cars but usually between those two sites I have it covered. I think german auto parts . com is good stuff but I haven't ordered anything from them yet.
Title: Re: Cam for fuel economy
Post by: bbob203 on March 12, 2013, 06:59:20 pm
Get a gates timing belt from oreillys. Low price high quality.