VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: TUFFY on February 05, 2013, 06:58:47 am
-
Is there a drop in oil pump drive for a 1.6 without a vacuum pump? Or has anyone modified a pump drive and cut off the vacuum pump part of it?
-
special pump, gear and cap...
-
there ARE setups out there to do that, but they are basically unobtanium..
they were only used prior to 1978, and only on 1.5 diesels, with very small pumps..
only part of the setup i have ever seen, is the oil pump..
its basically the same setup used to drive the oil pump on a 16v, but the gears are reverse cut, because the diesel IM shaft spins backwards..
-
i have the full setup off of a 1.5 but its all at my brothers house or i'd take pictures. there was recently a thread about this, do a search there was lots of good info.
-
That would be this thread.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32438.0
-
i have the full setup off of a 1.5 but its all at my brothers house or i'd take pictures. there was recently a thread about this, do a search there was lots of good info.
well, hang onto it..
and if you ever end up using it, be sure that you use the 2.0 16v oil pump..
the stock oil pump for that setup has like 22mm gears.. smallest pump ive ever seen..
16v oil pump has 30mm gears..
-
I think you could just pop the top off the vac pump and pull the vanes out. Reassmble and you woudl have no vacuum being made. You could plug the hole in the barb as well.
-
The vacuum pumps I have don't have vanes, they have that big diaphragm on them.
-
I think you could just pop the top off the vac pump and pull the vanes out. Reassmble and you woudl have no vacuum being made. You could plug the hole in the barb as well.
I'm not sure pulling the vanes and plugging the lid is enough. The oil pressure is restricted by the vanes and if unrestricted, may lower overall oil pressure.
Same question with the early diaphragm version: how much will defeating the pump affect oil pressure. The older may be better... I don't think I have one to check. :-/
-
I can leave the vacuum pump on, just would look allot cleaner if I could get rid of it. Also give me more room for steering shaft in the tractor if the pump wasn't there.
-
I think you could just pop the top off the vac pump and pull the vanes out. Reassmble and you woudl have no vacuum being made. You could plug the hole in the barb as well.
I'm not sure pulling the vanes and plugging the lid is enough. The oil pressure is restricted by the vanes and if unrestricted, may lower overall oil pressure.
Same question with the early diaphragm version: how much will defeating the pump affect oil pressure. The older may be better... I don't think I have one to check. :-/
I never saw any oil port into the vanes, I thought it ran through to the top and came out that way. Either way, I don't think you would loose 1 psi of pressure. I would think it would be less than 1 main bearing worth of oil.
If you were really worried about oil through vane loss you could take it out and weld the vane area shut and then reassemble.
-
AIUI, the vanes are pushed out by the oil pressure and oil is also pushed past the vanes at the top to lubricate and cool the rotating assembly. The excess oil is pushed out of the pump to the crankcase with the air, much like a Mr. Coffee pushes water up to the basket (upside-down).
So, I rekon if the vanes are removed, oil will get pumped into the chamber without the vanes providing any backpressure and it will drain into the crankcase without restriction, other than the diameter of the exit port.
Not sure welding the vane feed shut would be advised, the bearing/bushing may need the lube.
-
The vanes are pushed out by the spinning motion. IIRC the oil flows from the top. I also think since it is unfiltered and I think un bypassed oil that it would have no effect on the oil pressure of the engine.
-
Do the industrial engines have a vacuum pump?
The vane type pumps are already a lot more compact, if you want to source one of those. Or I suppose if you want to sacrifice a pump you can take it apart and remove the pump part of it and leave the shaft and whatever bearing it has, and weld some sort of cap onto it. I don't see why you couldn't go that route but I've never done it.
-
The vanes are pushed out by the spinning motion. IIRC the oil flows from the top. I also think since it is unfiltered and I think un bypassed oil that it would have no effect on the oil pressure of the engine.
The oil pushes out the top of the stem, but with the lid on, >100psi pressure builds behind the vanes. The vanes are too light to fling anyway.
There is a helical groove on the shaft below the vanes for lubrication that draws oil from the chamber.
I got some pics I'll share later today.
Sorry for the hijack, Tuffy, I'll try to get diaphragm version pics if I have one in the pile.
-
Yeah, that is how I thought of it too, but I don't see how it would effect oil pressure to the rest of the engine. Show me with pics.
-
Pics of a 1.9 vacuum pump.
Here's my understanding of the mechanism:
The vanes and hub are a close tolerance fit to the lid and form a seal at the top and bottom:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Qdj8aUsUoAc/URLSWIbKaKI/AAAAAAAABAg/wFUTUSuJ5vw/s800/IMG_9239.JPG)
Oil directly from the pump (~100psi) flows up through the shaft, fills the space in the top of the hub and the hollows behind each vane and pushes the vanes out to sweep the walls of the chamber. The sweeping from small area to large draws in air from the check-valve in the lid:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-nTQZk8etIrg/URLSWXWnMvI/AAAAAAAABAk/nBZuDGFaa30/s800/IMG_9240.JPG)
The vanes push the air (and oil that pushes past the vanes/hub) into the opening in the side of the chamber:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HY-L1mgKTpk/URLSWSa8DjI/AAAAAAAABAo/LpUkGfc4s7Y/s800/IMG_9241.JPG)
(Note the recess surrounding the bore in the bottom of the chamber.)
The opening in the side of the chamber leads directly down by the bottom of the bore to lubricate the gear (light can be seen below the bore):
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FliuUXoUwcc/URLSYA5QM-I/AAAAAAAABBA/Nb_EdfPeAiM/s800/IMG_9243.JPG)
The recess in the bottom around the bore receives oil from the hollows behind the vanes, its diameter is large enough to receive oil that is pushing the vanes in each slot. It supplies oil to the helical groove in the shaft. (It is the dark area that can be seen at the bottom of the slot):
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-rDvo1AO2yag/URLSYA30ZaI/AAAAAAAABBE/2pKJoBtEkOU/s800/IMG_9244.JPG)
The shaft is grooved to deliver oil from the chamber recess to the bore walls:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Lxw9kFTwf2o/URLSXyJd4KI/AAAAAAAABA4/rorGYX4cg9U/s800/IMG_9242.JPG)
So, the vanes hold oil pressure, forcing it down into the helical groove. Any oil that gets past the vanes gets pushed out the opening in the side of the chamber along with the air drawn into the pump.
Taking out the vanes will let the oil flow unrestricted into the chamber and out the opening in the side. That could drop oil pressure the same way a bad seal at the bottom of the pump shaft could. Plugging the oil feed at the top of the hub will starve the shaft and the drive gear at its bottom.
-
So weld it up 99% of the way and call it good?
-
So weld it up 99% of the way and call it good?
I'd rather weld the side passage closed, then drill about a 1/16" hole in that plug. That would keep pressure for the shaft feed and shoot oil onto the drive gear.
-
Or plug the nipple on top and change nothing?
-
I can leave the vacuum pump on, just would look allot cleaner if I could get rid of it. Also give me more room for steering shaft in the tractor if the pump wasn't there.
cut the top half of the pump off.. leave the shaft, and one of the bushings..
plug the hollow shaft.. its a passage for oil.. plug that, and you will be golden.
or, you can try and find the pieces for the diesel/manual brakes, but you may have a better chance of meeting Jesus Christ himself..
GOOGLE "dizzy grizzy"... thats the idea behind cutting the top half of the vac pump off..
why is your steering shaft THAT CLOSE to the engine?! you know you can rotate the vacuum pump almost 360*, and that should be enough to put it out of the way of your steering shaft.. besides, if you remove the vac pump, your steering shaft is gonna hit your oil filter, and oil feed lines.. then its gonna hit the alternator and water pump next..
i think i would take my chances with cutting up a vac pump.. or just poke holes in the diaphragm, and cap both ports..
-
plug the hollow shaft.. its a passage for oil.. plug that, and you will be golden.
Hrrrrrmmmm.... the shaft will burn up, it gets its lube from the top down and lubes the drive gear. (Check the pix.)
But if you want to disprove that theory, let us know how it goes.
-
The filter is a remote because original location would hit the frame rail. No alternator, rack and pinion steering in front, shaft and U joint go under water pump, then up next to engine near the vacuum pump then U joints to steering wheel. It clears the vacuum pump but its close, don't need pump so I though maybe I could just get rid of it.
-
well in a few weeks.. ill have a 2.0 16v oil pump, block off plate.. gear... i have a 1.5 oil pump/gear but somehow missing the cap.. but 1.9 big hole.. so it would not fit anyways..
till i have 16v stuff i will not say it will work... gear wrong.. but big due to smaller im shaft for 1.9.. not going to be same as 1.5 gear size..
you may have to get the gear/im shaft from a 1.6/1.5 thinned out so the crank misses it.. so you can use the 16v pump, but 1.5 gear drive set up..
gear i refer too is on the im shaft.. back when people stroked the old non bubble block gaser to 2.0 they would thin out the drive gear so the crank would miss it..
-
I cut apart a pump drive and can make it short but will have only the bottom bushing. I am worried there will be to much side load for just one bushing to handle though. What do you guys think?
-
I cut apart a pump drive and can make it short but will have only the bottom bushing. I am worried there will be to much side load for just one bushing to handle though. What do you guys think?
the block bushing is still there as well, isnt it? cause it takes a good portion of the load too..
the 16v/diesel just has a gear on the splined shaft, and no support bushing from above..
-
plug the hollow shaft.. its a passage for oil.. plug that, and you will be golden.
Hrrrrrmmmm.... the shaft will burn up, it gets its lube from the top down and lubes the drive gear. (Check the pix.)
But if you want to disprove that theory, let us know how it goes.
there is a notch in the IM shaft bearing that sprays oil on the gears..
you would be completely fine with just that one oiler..
-
plug the hollow shaft.. its a passage for oil.. plug that, and you will be golden.
Hrrrrrmmmm.... the shaft will burn up, it gets its lube from the top down and lubes the drive gear. (Check the pix.)
But if you want to disprove that theory, let us know how it goes.
there is a notch in the IM shaft bearing that sprays oil on the gears..
And the shaft above the gear?
-
I cut apart a pump drive and can make it short but will have only the bottom bushing. I am worried there will be to much side load for just one bushing to handle though. What do you guys think?
the block bushing is still there as well, isnt it? cause it takes a good portion of the load too..
the 16v/diesel just has a gear on the splined shaft, and no support bushing from above..
Yes the bushing is in the block, but the hole on the drive gear is not a close fit to the oil pump shaft so the drive gear can move around some on the oil pump shaft.
-
The 8V gear relies on the upper shaft to keep the gear concentric and in proper mesh.
That hollow shaft has a slot that mates with a flat tang on the oil pump (not splines). The shaft needs oil feed at gallery pressure.
-
I see how it all works and gets oil. I might have someone machine me a housing from aluminum round stock so I can use two bushings.