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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: jboogie13 on February 02, 2013, 08:10:59 pm
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Today i decided to take the eco on a trip about 2 hours away. The car drove great all the way to my destination making about 4 psi cruising boost at 3k and 10 when under load and the engine had no issues revving to redline. Shut the car off f at my destination for about 20 minutes. After that time it was time to leave so i got in the car and drove about 15 minutes to the fuel station where i filled up. Left the fuel station and noticed the car would not make boost (2-3 psi at best) and would not rev past 2800 rpm. Found an empty parking lot and observed same results when not in gear. Idled fine pump held prime, no concerning air bubbles in the fuel lines. I drained the water separator in the back of the car and there was a large amount of water in ther ebut the cars behavior did not change for the entire 2 hour drive back( would not reach any speeds higher than 55 mph). Wastegate stuck open? Bad fuel? i cant think of anything please help!!!
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I'd check the fuel filter.
I'd also remove/bypass the water separator before it strands you. (They get brittle, crack and leak.)
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I'd check the fuel filter.
I'd also remove/bypass the water separator before it strands you. (They get brittle, crack and leak.)
what am i checking the fuel filter for? i should note that it has less than 7k on it and is an oem bosch filter. water separator still looks healthy and functions properly, but will keep an eye on it. thanks for the speedy response!
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also, i installed a pump that supposedly worked on my car last week only to find that it wasnt making break pressure for the delivery valves, is it possible that any bad fuel/gunk from this pump clogged my fuel filter? i re installed my working eco pump and drove it with no problems for the past week, why would it take until now to affect fuel flow?
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I'd check if the filter or lines are plugged by water that got past the separator.
Bottle feeding would be my first test (IP in and out lines to container of fuel)... If the problem persists, the issue is not the supply from the tank or filter.
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............I drained the water separator in the back of the car and there was a large amount of water in ther ebut the cars behavior did not change for the entire 2 hour drive back( would not reach any speeds higher than 55 mph). Wastegate stuck open? Bad fuel? i cant think of anything please help!!!
How much was "large amount of water"? Did you drain the fuel filter? How much water was in there? Water absorbed in the filter will block it and could explain the lack of power (can't go faster than 55 mph). Were you able to go faster than 55 on the first half of the trip?
Water has no lubrication property, promotes rust, causes accelerated wear. I am sure you know that.
Edit:
That water separator is a great thing if working properly, it may have saved you from ingesting more water than you would have by capturing some of it. Obviously your water in fuel light was not working, otherwise you would have pulled over when you got the warning.
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water in fuel light?, and by a large amount i would say is probably about half a quart. its the most I've ever drained out of it. I'm going to pull some straight out of the tank today to see what kind of content is in there. The station i went to had a separate pumping station for the larger trucks and i saw those get heavy use while i was there. perhaps the smaller pumps see less use and have an opportunity to collect more water? And yes i was able to achieve at least 80 easily on the first half of the trip, Maintained 43 mpg even!
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water in fuel light?, and by a large amount i would say is probably about half a quart. its the most I've ever drained out of it. I'm going to pull some straight out of the tank today to see what kind of content is in there. The station i went to had a separate pumping station for the larger trucks and i saw those get heavy use while i was there. perhaps the smaller pumps see less use and have an opportunity to collect more water? And yes i was able to achieve at least 80 easily on the first half of the trip, Maintained 43 mpg even!
Sorry, water in fuel light warning is the glow plug LED blinking. Bentley describes it's operation. 1/2 quart water in the separator is a dangerous amount, invariably some of that water made it to your fuel filter/IP/injectors. I'd change the filter and run it from a bottle of fuel, go for a drive and see if it restores normal operation and hope for the best.
If I can find a NOS water separator I'd install one and have a level of warning/ protection for water in fuel. My old one was leaking and was removed long ago.
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......................I'm going to pull some straight out of the tank today to see what kind of content is in there. .............
I'd pump out the tank via the hose at the filter inlet, then drain the separator, then take the fuel sender out and with an absorbent cloth, mop out the water little by little.
Before filling and priming the system, I'd test the water in fuel LED by half filling the water separator with water and see if it blinks.
Keep the fuel you drained out, and the fuel receipt, a copy of this post, send it registered mail to the fuel station and ask for compensation for damages.
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Also it might be helpful to know if you have the stock filter. It has the extra fitting for the plastic tee to recirculate fuel.
(http://cdn0.autopartsnetwork.com/images/catalog/wp/full/W01331628214BOS.JPG)
(I replace those filters with the earlier versions.)
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I would test the fuel from the tank for water as well. Take about a cup of water. Measure it precisely somehow. Mil liters are better. Put that in a larger jar and then pour about three times that amount of fuel in it. Put a line on the jar where the water mark is. Let it set with a cover on it for the night. Next day look at the line, more water means you had water in the fuel. Try to measure the water out again and you may be able to have compensation.
Did the delivery truck just leave out? They tend to mix the big tank so if I ever see one at the station I generally go elsewhere and hope he hasn't been there first.
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went to drain the water separator today and nothing came out, might be frozen. But i did run the car out of a can of diesel purge and this time the car would not rev above 2500 and the boost gauge did not move. i know that when under no load i wont build near full boost but i can usually make about 2 psi. the fuel i pulled from the lines looked ok, i will test some straight from the tank. If the fuel isnt causing this then what else could it be? Could something have gone wrong with the governor in the pump?
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Did you replace the fuel filter? A water laden frozen filter is a major restriction. If your car was left in below 32F ambient overnight the water in the tank and in the separator is frozen. Water is heavier than diesel and will not be mixed with the fuel but settle out and sit at the bottom of the tank- frozen if below freezing. Y
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parts store didnt have a filter, but wouldnt running it out of a can of known good fuel rule out the filter?
I took a comparison photo fuel from the tank is on the right, and known good fuel ont he left. you cant really see it but there is a light green tint to the left bottle. much darker from the tank.
(http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m439/black9label13/IMG_20130203_163313_zps9f7f7a0d.jpg)
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... wouldnt running it out of a can of known good fuel rule out the filter? [/img]
Yeah, pretty much. I'd still give the tank a heavy dose of PS-911.
I'd pull the air intake ducting off and make sure there isn't a hunk of the air filter or other foreign object blocking them or the turbo intake. I'd also run the engine and see if the turbo is spinning up.
It could still be the IP, but I like to rule out the easy-to-see stuff first.
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parts store didnt have a filter, but wouldnt running it out of a can of known good fuel rule out the filter?
I took a comparison photo fuel from the tank is on the right, and known good fuel ont he left. you cant really see it but there is a light green tint to the left bottle. much darker from the tank.
Only if you bypassed the filter. You did not say if you did or not.
Pour some water in your bottle of fuel and watch how quick it sinks to the bottom. Shake it up and watch how fast the water separates and settle to the bottom. The fuel pickup does not pick up every drop. The only way to get all the water out is as I mentioned already, or take the tank out and drain it.
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I can hear the turbo spooling, no obvious air restrictions, i did bypass the filter when running the purge through. i will try the fuel dryer tomorrow as a friend lent me his car to get to work tomorrow (panic subsided a little) thank you all for the responses and keep them coming. Having my daily up and running every day of the week is critical and this is really ***ing me up.
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Sorry if this sounds too basic... but is the throttle-arm travelling all the way freely?
My 81 caddy had a throttle-cable clip (the one on the ribbed section of jacket) that would back off, causing the pedal to only pull the throttle arm part way.
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Sorry if this sounds too basic... but is the throttle-arm travelling all the way freely?
My 81 caddy had a throttle-cable clip (the one on the ribbed section of jacket) that would back off, causing the pedal to only pull the throttle arm part way.
haha yeah because the behavior stayed the same when i physically pushed the throttle arm to full stop under the hood. i wish it was something as simple as that :(
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Update, ive ordered new filter, but in the meantime ive been running a mix of 50% diesel 911 (fuel dryer) and 50% fresh diesel fuel. I replaced the line from the filter to the pump with a clear one, and the car has been running with the fuel flowing from the canister with the mixture in it, through the filter, and into the pump with the return line going back to the canister. the car will now hold revs at approximatley 3100 rpm and will build about 2 psi in neutral. Improvement? illusion? i dont think the filter is restricting it because when priming the filter with fuel it took less than 3 inHG with the mightyvac and fuel seemed to flow very nicely. there is a steady stream from the return line. I'm still baffled, any more sugestions? I am trying to avoid opening the pump. If i drove the car to work tomorrow (about 20 miles one way) would i be risking harming anything? i hate inconveniencing people by borrowing their cars.
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i should also add that the last time i timed the pump, i timed it to 1.02mm and that was a week before this incident, about 600 miles between as well.
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How many miles did you drive on the batch of water laden fuel? My guess is the the pump is worn from low lubrication. Call up a Bosch pump rebuild shop, give them the story and ask their opinion on what to expect as to the extent of the damage.
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i put about 100 miles on it from necessity. its been running with the good stuff going through it fo about an hour and a half now, i can now get it to rev to 4k and build boost accordingly. The pump isnt leaking and still holds a prime. im going to have to run it with a large amount of cold weather diesel additive until i can find a suitable replacement pump. i will keep updated here. thank you all so much for the help! keep the ideas rolling in!
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Get in contact with One_PunchMachineGun over on the vortex, he is looking to sell a 1.6TD pump i resealed for him back in June/July of 2012.
His car was wrecked and insurance uppercut him, so he is looking to make some cash.
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i put about 100 miles on it from necessity. its been running with the good stuff going through it fo about an hour and a half now, i can now get it to rev to 4k and build boost accordingly. The pump isnt leaking and still holds a prime. im going to have to run it with a large amount of cold weather diesel additive until i can find a suitable replacement pump. i will keep updated here. thank you all so much for the help! keep the ideas rolling in!
The IP might be fine. If it sucked in some dispersed water, there might have been ice crystals in odd places in the IP (governor control sleeve). Driving around or on the highway in winter might not have allowed the IP to get warm enough to melt internal ice crystals, but stationary, it might have warmed enough to pass the water particles out. Far-fetched... maybe, but it's making boost and revs.
Run it on a jar of plain diesel and see what happens.
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I agree TD, although judging by the amount of water he had in his tank it likely ingested quite a few strokes of damn near pure water. Luckily however, the pump internals are not untreated steel so rust is not likely an issue. The bores may me questionable.. but there would have to be quite a bit of water and sit for a while.
I think it is likely fine, You have it running on a jug already? 50/50 diesel and PS 911?
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With your bottle of fuel 70% full, start the engine and warm it up to operating temp. Note what max rpm it will reach. Pour in 30% virgin corn oil and shake it up. Now see what max rpm it will reach. If rpm is higher, it affirms the worn pump theory.
Don't forget to replace the fuel with 100% diesel.
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With your bottle of fuel 70% full, start the engine and warm it up to operating temp. Note what max rpm it will reach. Pour in 30% virgin corn oil and shake it up. Now see what max rpm it will reach. If rpm is higher, it affirms the worn pump theory.
That's interesting... might that also indicate low internal pressure regulation?
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With your bottle of fuel 70% full, start the engine and warm it up to operating temp. Note what max rpm it will reach. Pour in 30% virgin corn oil and shake it up. Now see what max rpm it will reach. If rpm is higher, it affirms the worn pump theory.
That's interesting... might that also indicate low internal pressure regulation?
Internal pressure is detrmined by the regulator bolt adjustment (w hammer) by the fuel inlet. I don' think that changed with the bad fuel. If there was accelerated wear and pressure loss from fuel diluted with water, i.e. vane pump, plunger, delivery valve, injector nozzles etc. the thicker viscosity fuel will restore some of that lost pressure.
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once the engine revved to 4k it was as if something suddenly freed up and the engine was behaving just as it always has again. i dont doubt some premature wear occured, but it seems to be working okay. i will look that user up 8v if the person im talking to on here does not take my offer.
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With your bottle of fuel 70% full, start the engine and warm it up to operating temp. Note what max rpm it will reach. Pour in 30% virgin corn oil and shake it up. Now see what max rpm it will reach. If rpm is higher, it affirms the worn pump theory.
That's interesting... might that also indicate low internal pressure regulation?
Internal pressure is detrmined by the regulator bolt adjustment (w hammer) by the fuel inlet. I don' think that changed with the bad fuel. If there was accelerated wear and pressure loss from fuel diluted with water, i.e. vane pump, plunger, delivery valve, injector nozzles etc. the thicker viscosity fuel will restore some of that lost pressure.
AIUI, increased viscosity would raise internal pressure even if the internal wear was minimal, advancing timing that was retarded due to low pressure setting. The advanced timing would reduce injector lag and raise top rpm.
So, I'm not confident it would be a definitive diagnosis of internal wear, without a gauge to validate internal pressure is to spec.
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This summer I will be doing the wax in the diesel for this very thing. To thicken the fuel WAY up.
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so heres where im at; when i run fuel lines from a can to the filter then to the pump, everything works as advertised. When i hook everything back up to the tank plumbing, pump looses its prime and drains the fuel filter within minutes of starting. tons of air bubbles in the lines. A friend and myself think the tee fitting on the fuel filter may be the culprit? all the fuel lines that i can see look alright and when i shut the car off i can hear air being sucked into the filter.
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so heres where im at; when i run fuel lines from a can to the filter then to the pump, everything works as advertised. When i hook everything back up to the tank plumbing, pump looses its prime and drains the fuel filter within minutes of starting. tons of air bubbles in the lines. A friend and myself think the tee fitting on the fuel filter may be the culprit? all the fuel lines that i can see look alright and when i shut the car off i can hear air being sucked into the filter.
I don't follow your logic since everything was dandy from can to filter, the filter is okay. the problem is in everything back to the tank starting from the fillter.
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This summer I will be doing the wax in the diesel for this very thing. To thicken the fuel WAY up.
why are you doing that? what's the matter with your fuel system?
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so heres where im at; when i run fuel lines from a can to the filter then to the pump, everything works as advertised. When i hook everything back up to the tank plumbing, pump looses its prime and drains the fuel filter within minutes of starting. tons of air bubbles in the lines. A friend and myself think the tee fitting on the fuel filter may be the culprit? all the fuel lines that i can see look alright and when i shut the car off i can hear air being sucked into the filter.
Those tee fittings crack easily and the o-rings tend to leak.
Unfortunately, you can't just bypass the tee; you need to replace the filter with the old style, to eliminate that potential for air leaking.
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With your bottle of fuel 70% full, start the engine and warm it up to operating temp. Note what max rpm it will reach. Pour in 30% virgin corn oil and shake it up. Now see what max rpm it will reach. If rpm is higher, it affirms the worn pump theory.
That's interesting... might that also indicate low internal pressure regulation?
Internal pressure is detrmined by the regulator bolt adjustment (w hammer) by the fuel inlet. I don' think that changed with the bad fuel. If there was accelerated wear and pressure loss from fuel diluted with water, i.e. vane pump, plunger, delivery valve, injector nozzles etc. the thicker viscosity fuel will restore some of that lost pressure.
AIUI, increased viscosity would raise internal pressure even if the internal wear was minimal, advancing timing that was retarded due to low pressure setting. The advanced timing would reduce injector lag and raise top rpm.
So, I'm not confident it would be a definitive diagnosis of internal wear, without a gauge to validate internal pressure is to spec.
we don't know if his fuel pressure setting was low on not. I would think the setting remained the same after the bad fuel.
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I don't follow your logic since everything was dandy from can to filter, the filter is okay. the problem is in everything back to the tank starting from the fillter.
when running from the can to the filter, the return line was routed into the can rather than into the tee fitting. once hooked back up to the tee fitting i could hear air sucking back into the filter. seeing as the other lines were all clamped (trust me, they were sealing) I have a new fuel filter to put in it anyways to eliminate any remaining contamination, and a tee is not hard to obtain. I hate the idea of shotgunning parts at problems, but im going to replace the cheap/wear items just in case.
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I don't follow your logic since everything was dandy from can to filter, the filter is okay. the problem is in everything back to the tank starting from the fillter.
when running from the can to the filter, the return line was routed into the can rather than into the tee fitting. once hooked back up to the tee fitting i could hear air sucking back into the filter. seeing as the other lines were all clamped (trust me, they were sealing) I have a new fuel filter to put in it anyways to eliminate any remaining contamination, and a tee is not hard to obtain. I hate the idea of shotgunning parts at problems, but im going to replace the cheap/wear items just in case.
ok I see. sounds like a leak at the tee. those tees are expensive. I would try a new oring first if the tee has no cracks. or get rid of it all together as suggested and use a different filter.
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we don't know if his fuel pressure setting was low or not. ...
Precisely... since we don't know if his IP internal pressure was low to begin with, the test will not be able distinguish between wear or if the regulator is maladjusted.
@jboogie13:
The fuel recirculation feature doesn't provide enough benefit compared to the potential for trouble (IMO). They can also leak fuel all over the place.
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If you use a filter without the recirculation fitting, where does the pump return dump fuel?
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If you use a filter without the recirculation fitting, where does the pump return dump fuel?
It goes back to the tank.
I just put a barbed union where the tee fitting was and use the older style filter.
(http://www.autohausaz.com/secure/PartImages/0450906172.jpg)
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If you use a filter without the recirculation fitting, where does the pump return dump fuel?
back to the tank. did you call the gas station to tell them about the bad fuel so they don't sell it to anyone else?
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not yet, i may do that today, things have been kind of busy, getting my car back has been priority over dealing with the fuel station.
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replaced the tee fitting and everything is just andy now. thanks for all the help guys!
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replaced the tee fitting and everything is just andy now. thanks for all the help guys!
So everything is fine with the IP?
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seems to be, running as good as it ever has, maybe even a little better. starts great, boosts great, and my last tank reported 41 mpg, not bad for winter mileage and a cocktail of additives to remove water.
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seems to be, running as good as it ever has, maybe even a little better. starts great, boosts great, and my last tank reported 41 mpg, not bad for winter mileage and a cocktail of additives to remove water.
That's good news! So what was it that caused all the problems of no power? Was it the leaky tee?
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a mixture of water laden fuel and a tee fitting not doing its job. I think my tee had been defective for a while, but since i never had ice crystals reach my filter it never mattered, but that one tank of wet fuel had enough water in it to allow ice to form in my filter before the tee could flow enough warm fuel in to melt the crystals.
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Have you pulled apart your Peugeot pump? I'd like to know what its cam plate lift is.
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not yet, was thinking about doing that today, maybe i just might