VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on January 06, 2013, 08:41:57 am
-
I bought and stripped clean the wrecked 91 Eco D this past summer. I just pulled the injectors and the diesel that was in there was clean. Injectors came out easy and looks good with no carbon fouling. I filled the injector holes with MMO and after a few minutes, turned the engine over with a ratchet easily.
Oil in the crank case is not sooted black but still clear. I want to install this engine into my 92 Eco eventually. Should I try to run it on the ground first before installing it in the 92? I would need to bolt up the tranny and starter in order to do so. Is it worth the hassel?
-
I think it would be worth trying to run it on the ground. It is a lot more work to but it in the car to only find out it has a problem.
-
Running on ground much easier than putting in car and it not working and you kicking a rock breaking your toe and being pissed. ;D
-
if you do not have a safe way to run it on the ground, ie. a stand or some blocking to hold it good.. I'd at least mount it in the engine bay.. Whats that take on an mk2? 20 minutes? Saves it rocking around.. or falling on itself and damaging something.
However if you have a safe way to do it on the ground.. YOUTUBE the first start up :)!
-
I would opt for the install. I just wouldn't chance it without a proper stand or secure mount. I run on the percautionary principle for something like this. Talk about kicking a rock and being PO'd. Have that thing drop over running on the moving belt and you will be less than excited about getting it going.
My 2 Cents
-
I'd at least mount it in the engine bay.. Whats that take on an mk2? 20 minutes? Saves it rocking around.. or falling on itself and damaging something.
Agree (If the engine bay is open). Having a radiator & fan can give you time to check vital signs as the engine warms to operating temp.
-
I do not have an open engine bay. how about if I have the engine sitting on a tire on the ground and at the same time 50 percent of its weight suspended from an engine hoist?
-
I think I have seen this technique demonstrated and it seems to support the weight safely. Getting the garden hoses to the radiator intake and having the rest out of the way so you can actually test and tune it might take some doing. Bottle of fuel at the engine hoist is also a fueling means.
I understand you are in a swap out position here and want a good one running to quickly replace the other that is poorly running, but running just the same.
-
I've started an engine without water or coolant in it and a dry trans and had no problem. it wasn't running more than a minute though.
-
14 years is no big deal. I'd just install it with confidence that it will run fine. Before starting it, change the timing belt and tensioner. Squirt a small amount of oil into the cylinders and crank it over by hand a few times to lube the cylinders/rings. Pull the vac pump and spin it with a drill. Then prime the fuel system and run it. I recently revived a 1.6 rabbit that sat outside for 16 years without injectors installed. I took a few more precautions because of dust in the cylinders, but after a couple weekends of work, the engine runs like a top and has been my main driver for a year.
-
I recently revived a 1.6 rabbit that sat outside for 16 years without injectors installed. I took a few more precautions because of dust in the cylinders, but after a couple weekends of work, the engine runs like a top and has been my main driver for a year.
So this is where all of our luck goes when it comes to fixing up an old car in the driveway. Libby gets it. And we get the intermediate shaft, with loose bearings and pulleys that will never line up.
Good that someone can pull these things out of the weeds and have them "run like a top" Tis the goal of all of us I'd say.
-
Personally, I would strip the block, measure it, hone it, ring it, and seal it. But, that is just me.
In lieu of that, starting one on the ground is do-able. But, if for any reason (like the oil you put in the cylinders or stuck rings, etc.) you get a run-away.....it will be an experience you will never forget. Probably better put on your Pampers for this very reason.
Edit: If you truly believe this engine has less than 100k miles (I see very few of these odometers working out there....and many of them quit at about 60k or so) there is another alternative. You can pull the head, and use a proper-sized ball hone (please...spare me the douche bottle mentality thingee) (with adequate lube) above each piston (at the bottom of the stroke). Just make sure it is a light uniform hone. And, then clean out the bores with fuel, etc.
This past fall, I did this to a solid lifter 1.6 which had spent almost all of it's life being pulled behind an RV camper. I cold pressure tested the cylinders prior to this and had about 400 to 420 across the board. After we put it together and fired it up, I experienced a great deal of pain in my shoulder turning it over with a wrench. Clearly, the honing enhanced the original rings' ability.
I regretted the whole process because I did not know exactly how well this was going to turn out. My younger friend was short (er) on cash and that was the reason behind the decision. He reports a total lack of oil consumption two months later.
Of course, ALL the seals and intermediate shaft bearings were replaced.
-
If the cylinders and fuel system weren't open, then 14 years is nothing. Change the timing belt and tensioner, squirt a little oil into each cylinder, turn it over a few times by hand, prime the oil system and fuel system, install it and run it. It may burn extra oil for the first few hundred miles as surface rust is removed from the cylinders but it should settle right back.
-
I agree with libs. If the engine was sealed this whole time, then the chance of foreign material in the engine is extremely slim to none. Pull it, do regular maintenance, and install. The only thing I'd really check is the intake and exhaust to see if there's any rats nest stuff, but since you're pulling the engine then that's no problem.
This is a situation where you might be worrying too much.
-
I'd pull the head and look at the walls on the cylinders...
Then you will know if the engine wear is what you'd expect, and can tell if moisture got in (maybe an open valve). If it looks like it has, pull the pistons.
A broke ring can scar the walls and ruin an engine.
Price of a head gasket and your time is cheap compared to ruining the block...
The 1.6 I rebuilt had sat for years also, I just measured everything, honed out the cylinders and put in new pistons/rings... now I'll trust it for 200,000 miles...
-
Naw....we gots no use fer common sense..............
-
I've pulled two cars out of the woods that sat for 14 years and 18 years.(video's of both on youtube under my screen name vdubspeed16vt) Both started up PERFECTLY and are still running. I pour ATF in the pump and let that sit a couple minutes. After that...start cranking. Now both engines did get a new t-belt.
14 years was just a hibernation for the ole girl. Don't let these doomdays people have you spending hard earned money on a complete rebuild or to have a look or whatever. New t-belt and go.
Regards,
Jason
-
Yup, I just revived one that sat 16 years. Runs like a top.
-
Depends on where its stored to what is gonna happen.
my red car needed nozzle tips,they were rusted shut..about 500miles after getting it running and using lube my ip still crapped.
def do a timing belt,it lets you get in there and get some of the crusty crap off the pulleys and sprockets..
id prelube it like its a fresh engine,cause its dryer than one thats for sure.and dont prelube it by cranking it over it doesnt make sense you ar spinning it with no oil.
my car was in a damp garage,there was green crap on the steering wheel.it always smells musty even though ive had the interior out.its 70% better but a few spritzes of febreze only lasts a few days.i think the dash will haveta come out so everything can be cleaned and wiped down.thats too much to think about right now,febreeze is cheep.....
for initial test running,id run it out of a small gas can and set it up on the cowl or somethin
-
If the timing belt is still on I would crank it by hand.
If you get near a peak and it wants to spin backwards the compression is real good. Above 375.
Starting to wonder how well that works with hydrolic lifters that have sat for so long.
Always works with the mechanical heads.
You are going to remove the I-shaft seal and check the I-shaft bearings before instal right?
-
I have got 14 lbs across the board reading from a car with bled down hydro lifters before, but it wasn't a VW.
I'd run it. My 6.2 sat under a redwood tree for over 5 years, and in my shed a few more, but ran fine once I patched the torn valve cover.
-
I have got 14 lbs across the board reading from a car with bled down hydro lifters before, but it wasn't a VW.
I'd run it. My 6.2 sat under a redwood tree for over 5 years, and in my shed a few more, but ran fine once I patched the torn valve cover.
14 lbs of what? Compression? Diesel compression gauges are in the 1000 psi range. How was it that you were able to measure 14 psi?
-
I would just run it. My replacement porsche 944 engine had been sitting in a warehouse for a good 20 years before I started it. The hydraulic lifers were noisy as all heck but quieted down after a few minutes.
-
I have got 14 lbs across the board reading from a car with bled down hydro lifters before, but it wasn't a VW.
14 lbs of what? Compression? Diesel compression gauges are in the 1000 psi range. How was it that you were able to measure 14 psi?
Gas car, gas compression gauge.
-
You are going to remove the I-shaft seal and check the I-shaft bearings before instal right?
+1
Suggest slacking/replacing the belt and give the driven shafts a wiggle to check bearing wear (Cam/IP/IM).
-
As if you dont have enough suggestions: prelube it as if a new engine by spinning the oil pump drive with a drill
-
Finally got around to working on this engine to try and get it to run on the ground. Replaced the timing belt and tensioner and set the timing. Engine turns freely. Took out the glow plugs and checked them and they looked clean, none were burned out (they are the old Bosch not the Duraterms). The cam looks great!
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20130825_153505_zps5c50dc93.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Ecodiesel92/media/IMG_20130825_153505_zps5c50dc93.jpg.html)
-
Took compression on all cylinders dry and then wet (with some oil). Compression was not even and ranged from 309 psi to 460 psi dry and 540 to 620 wet. I remember on my daily driver 92 Eco when I first got it the compression was also all over the place and ran like crap. As I drove it more with a lots of Italian tuneup the compression got better and better and more even. I am hoping that this engine having sat for so long. that the valve seats and rings need time to bed in again and even out the compression. What do you think?
Dry:
#1 309 psi
#2 360
#3 340
#4 460
Wet:
#1 540
#2 560
#3 490
#4 620
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20130826_044503_zpscc1d7e56.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Ecodiesel92/media/IMG_20130826_044503_zpscc1d7e56.jpg.html)
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20130826_045242_zpsc266038e.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Ecodiesel92/media/IMG_20130826_045242_zpsc266038e.jpg.html)
-
I would try and run it as is for now. There may come a cold morning when that #3 cylinder will not want to fire like the rest but as soon as it is warmed a bit it will come around. I question the 620 wet value. Seems high to me, too much oil?
Just the same, run and see that is what I would be doing if in your shoes.
I just put new rings in my 1.6 back in May because of a 200 lb reading on #3 and the rest were at 500+ a few. So, I know what that is like. Just a tint of blue in the morning as I went up the street and a whole lot of blowby out the VC to the air box.
-
You guys are such a bunch of ninnies. The engine isn't going to fall over and hurt itself if it is bolted to a transaxle. I've run a bunch of these on the ground. Its never a problem. As for taking what is likely a good motor apart to see if its good... Don't be an idiot. If its good you will know it in a couple of minutes of running. If its not a good motor you will know that in a hurry as well. Then take it apart. As long as you can touch the head with the back of your hand you haven't gotten it too hot. We can't duplicate the ring seal that they get from the factory. Replacing the rings in an otherwise good motor is a big step backward. IF ITS NOT BROKE DON'T "FIX" IT. Or perhaps "Kid F&$k it" is a better term. Or at least a more descriptive term.
FWIW don't worry about the compression at this point. It is supposed to be checked hot with a battery charger on the battery while you are doing the test. The compression will almost certainly come up and level out after it has run a while. I have probably brought a hundred vehicles back to life after they were abandoned by someone else and they "need to get used to runnin' again" as the old guys used to say. Just try to get everything lubed up again before you crank it up. That will keep it from getting damaged before the oiling system comes up to pressure. Don't freak out when it smokes when you first start it up. You have been oiling it down to free it up and that will put out a big cloud of smoke on start up.
Being cautious/paranoid, I would spin it over for a while with the glow plus out to drive out the excess oil and bring up the oil pressure before light off. While the danger of a run away is real it is not great. I would make sure that I had enough of the air filter stuff on the motor to allow me to choke off the air in the event that you get a runaway. You probably won't be able to kill it that way, but you can keep it from over revving.
-
Definitely not taking it apart to see if it's good. I'm not putting the engine in a car, just want to run it on the ground to see whether the engine is good, then put it in storage.
I plan on (with water pump belt off), take T stat out, hook garden hose (with an adapter) to the lower rad hose barb on the water pump, hook up hoses to the ports on the head so they are higher than the head, turn on garden hose and water should fill the engine and come out from the hoses above the engine ,so I should be able to run it as long as I want. Do you see any problems with doing that?
-
I loop the rad hoses so I can spot a head gasket leak.
-
I loop the rad hoses so I can spot a head gasket leak.
Where are you spotting the head gasket leak?
-
I loop the rad hoses so I can spot a head gasket leak.
Where are you spotting the head gasket leak?
Between the head and block, and wherever it is dripping water ;).
-
I loop the rad hoses so I can spot a head gasket leak.
Where are you spotting the head gasket leak?
Between the head and block, and wherever it is dripping water ;).
Head gasket leaks are rarely external.
-
How else would you observe them while running it, if he was not in fact meaning external? Lol.
Could be an oil one too, it'd be hard to see with water squirting all over.
-
How else would you observe them while running it, if he was not in fact meaning external? Lol.
Could be an oil one too, it'd be hard to see with water squirting all over.
If there was an external leak, there would be signs where the leak is already. There is no signs of water or oil leak from the head gasket. It's dry and clean. Water squirting all over?
-
Well you fill it with water, anything else that shows up in your closed loop has to be exhaust.
If the hose pressurizes instantly, it's a head gasket. Even without a rad, it's a good bit of idle to hit operating temp.
Also will show a leaking water pump or whatever.
-
Well you fill it with water, anything else that shows up in your closed loop has to be exhaust.
If the hose pressurizes instantly, it's a head gasket. Even without a rad, it's a good bit of idle to hit operating temp.
Also will show a leaking water pump or whatever.
How do you run closed loop with no radiator? Do you have your water pump running? To run closed loop, shouldn't the radiator be there to remove heat?
I didn't want to hook up the radiator and expansion tank to replicate a stock system - too much work.
I am feeding a garden hose as input into the lowest part of the engine (water pump) with T-stat removed. All the other ports are outlets and have hoses on them which are placed higher than the head so air bubbles self bleed and the head is always full of moving water. I believe this is the safest way to run an engine on the ground. Engine heat is removed by the water being dumped out of the engine (onto the ground).
I got it running and the engine sounds beautiful. It started without glow plugs which says the engine has good compression.
I had a hell of a time priming the injection pump. The injector hard lines were off on the first attempt and no matter what I tried could not get the IP to suck fuel. I tried using a Mityvac on the return barb to fill the IP, then tried filling it with a funnel via the return banjo pedestal, but cranking the engine would not suck fuel from the fuel bottle into the IP, and only the the 2 lower delivery valves had fuel squirting out of them (one squirted a little more than the other), the other 2 delivery valves had nothing coming out of them. I thought the IP or transfer pump was gunked up from sitting for 14 years or the pump has a leak and needs resealing. I was ready to pull the pump then said to myself it's worth a try putting the injector hard lines on for another attempt. It's not that much more work and will save me from pulling the IP (and opening a can of worms) if it works.
It worked!
After the injector hard lines were in place I used the Mityvac on the return pedestal to suck fuel into the IP till the clear fuel lines are filled, I cranked the engine to bleed the hard lines and noted it is now sucking fuel into the IP and saw a puff of smoke! I tightened the rest of the injector nuts, cranked some more and it started (with no glow plugs) and ran smoothly with NO SMOKE! I have a good engine!
Here's a video of it starting and running (with running water)
I ran it for a total of maybe 1 minute and the water coming out was immediately warm and got hotter as it ran.
CLICK TO PLAY!
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/th_VID_20130829_122716_zps369d0c07.jpg) (http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/VID_20130829_122716_zps369d0c07.mp4)
-
Well you fill it with water, anything else that shows up in your closed loop has to be exhaust.
If the hose pressurizes instantly, it's a head gasket. Even without a rad, it's a good bit of idle to hit operating temp.
Also will show a leaking water pump or whatever.
How do you run closed loop with no radiator? Do you have your water pump running? To run closed loop, shouldn't the radiator be there to remove heat?
There are a couple ways to go about it. One is to take a long rad hose, and run it from the water outlet to the water inlet.Another would be to join the upper and lower hose with a large nipple where the rad would go. I prefer the latter so its easy to let any air out. I leave all acessories on unless there is something wrong with them, exc the PS pumps like to make a mess.There is no need whatsoever for the radiator until well after the thermostat is fully open, which takes a good while when you have no way to load the engine. I think the one in my shop took half an hour+ to hit 210.
Sounds good for such a long sit.
-
I am putting this engine into storage till I need it. How should it be prepped?
I have so far:
Fresh oil and filter.
IP and input and return lines filled with clean fuel and capped.
Should I fill the engine with coolant and plug all ports or drain the water out and blow dry? I think I like the coolant better to prevent rust.
What else do I need to do?
-
Can you easily pull the injectors and oil the cylinders down?? Obviously you cannot fog diesels.. so I'd do that.
Or swap out your fuel jar with 100% 2 stroke motor oil. Leave that to sit in the pump, lines, injectors and on the pistons/cylinders.
-
I would also suggest putting the engine at TDC, the valves are all completely shut at this point. and will prevent ANYTHING from going through the intake or the exhaust.
-
Vince Waldon used to store his pumps with 100% atf. Really don't know how the last one went but he had it in storage for about 2 years and I don't know if he put it on anything or not.
-
I agree ATF works as well, and is especially good as a cleanser but I do not think it has as much lubrication properties as 2 stroke oil.
The 2-stroke would work good for the injectors and cylinders as well.
-
I bought a pump off ebay that wasnt full of anything or sealed up, i let it sit basically emptyfor 2-3 years and then put it on my car and its been on there for a few years now too haha
-
You got extremely lucky the seals didn't shrivel and leak. lol
-
You got extremely lucky the seals didn't shrivel and leak. lol
Is that what usually happens to a pump that sat for a long time? Maybe it has something to do with the low mileage (60k) and that it was full of fuel?
-
If the seals are original they will need replacing very shortly now that you are running them trough ULSD.
-
Why 2 cycle oil? High sulfur diesel was in there for 14 years and the IP is fine. Does low sulfur diesel go rancid faster?
-
I think the ULSD does go bad sooner. The sulfur would act as a preservative or at least like an anti bacterial agent.
-
It's worse than that, sulphur diesel conditioned the seals in a certain way that kept them swelled up, and the super low aromatic content of ULSD pulls that conditioning out causing the seals to shrink and crack. it's not that ULSD makes it leak, it is the act of switching.
-
How else would you observe them while running it, if he was not in fact meaning external? Lol.
Could be an oil one too, it'd be hard to see with water squirting all over.
Revisiting this one, external head gasket coolant leaks can be easily found with a pressure test.
-
I was surprised at how quiet the engine was with no muffler or resonator, just the turbo mounted to the exhaust manifold.
I really think this engine has only 60k miles. The engine sounds great. No play on the intermediate shaft. The OE clear nylon fuel lines are completely clear.
click to play if you haven't heard it already
(http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/VID_20130829_122716_zps369d0c07.mp4)
-
[quote author=92EcoDiesel Jetta .............
..........
I had a hell of a time priming the injection pump. The injector hard lines were off on the first attempt and no matter what I tried could not get the IP to suck fuel. I tried using a Mityvac on the return barb to fill the IP, then tried filling it with a funnel via the return banjo pedestal, but cranking the engine would not suck fuel from the fuel bottle into the IP, and only the the 2 lower delivery valves had fuel squirting out of them (one squirted a little more than the other), the other 2 delivery valves had nothing coming out of them. I thought the IP or transfer pump was gunked up from sitting for 14 years or the pump has a leak and needs resealing. I was ready to pull the pump then said to myself it's worth a try putting the injector hard lines on for another attempt. It's not that much more work and will save me from pulling the IP (and opening a can of worms) if it works.
It worked!
[/quote]
Any comments as to why I could not get the IP primed and suck fuel with the injector hardlines off? And why only the lower two delivery valves were squirting out fuel? It was only after I installed the injector hardlines that it primed easily and ran.
I remember reading about someone else with a similar problem recently.
-
Just from running the engine for approx 2 to 3 minutes brought the cold compression reading of cyl #1 from 309 psi to 420 psi.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20130902_123622_zpsd11e3892.jpg) (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Ecodiesel92/media/IMG_20130902_123622_zpsd11e3892.jpg.html)
-
I mixed in some 2 stroke oil into the bottle ran it for 30 seconds, capped the IP in/out, drained the water and filled it with antifreeze and capped the ports, put engine at TDC, ready for storage.
CLICK TO PLAY!
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/th_VID_20130901_184756_zpsb38df372.jpg) (http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/VID_20130901_184756_zpsb38df372.mp4)
-
FWIW don't worry about the compression at this point. The compression will almost certainly come up and level out after it has run a while. I have probably brought a hundred vehicles back to life after they were abandoned by someone else and they "need to get used to runnin" again" as the old guys used to say.
-
Had that a few times too Toby.