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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: rs899 on January 02, 2013, 12:08:21 pm
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Over the holidays , I am trying to re-engine an old '81 Rabbit Convertible using a old 1.6 IDI that I had basically lying around with low miles on the pieces.
Well, I forgot a bit about pulleys. First, I forgot that the diesel block doesn't have the same alternator mounting holes as the old JH gasser block ( I was going to delete the A/C using a Fox alternator and mount). Rats. Well, that can be overcome as I have a buddy who can make me a plate or block to locate the Fox mount over the water pump.
The other snag I have now is where the pulleys will end up. I forgot that the only water pump pulley I have is a 40mm and I don't have any 40mm pumps. The only 30mm pulley I have is from the gasser and I realized that it's too large to play with the diesel crank pulley.
Sooo. How can I get this thing going? Can I use the gasser crank pulley and the gasser wp pulley ( assuming I can shim it out)?
Sorry about the pic. It looks like it interferes, but it doesn't, just a bad angle. The gasser wp pulley on the diesel crank pulley DOES interfere.
(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss212/rs899/DSCF6457.jpg)
I suppose I can buy a 40mm pump, but I have about 3 or 4 good 30mm pumps sitting around.
There aren't any 1.6 diesels in the yards around here- are there any other gasser 30mm wp pulleys that work?
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all 8v gasser pulleys are totally wrong..
i have a mix of 16v, and diesel pulleys on my engine.. everything is as it should be.
im going serpentine as soon as i can get a clutch pulley for my 120a TDI alternator..
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About anything can be made to work... I would at least determine where the alternator pulley will line up, too.
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About anything can be made to work... I would at least determine where the alternator pulley will line up, too.
Eventually, but I can't do that until I decide on a crank /water pump plane. The alternator can probably be made to follow, as it will be mounted to a plate covering the water pump.
The gasser crank/gasser wp can likely be physically made to work, unless there's something inherently wrong with the ratio. The gasser crank pulley is smaller and the gasser wp pulley is larger. Not a lot, maybe 10% each.
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About anything can be made to work... I would at least determine where the alternator pulley will line up, too.
Eventually, but I can't do that until I decide on a crank /water pump plane. The alternator can probably be made to follow, as it will be mounted to a plate covering the water pump.
The gasser crank/gasser wp can likely be physically made to work, unless there's something inherently wrong with the ratio. The gasser crank pulley is smaller and the gasser wp pulley is larger. Not a lot, maybe 10% each.
the offset is 100% wrong on 8v pulleys..
you gotta use either 16v or diesel pulleys on a diesel..
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The gasser wp pulley on the diesel crank pulley DOES interfere.
(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss212/rs899/DSCF6457.jpg)
What is that a picture of?
Gasser crank pully and a gasser WP pully?
Too large to work with the diesel crank pully means the diameter is too large?
I sort of remember the crank pullys that go with the 40mm Wpump had a larger diameter and I ran into the same problem when swapping to 30mm on my very first Rabbit..
Sounds like you are looking for a diesel crank pully, just a tin one, same diameter as the gasser but doesn't stick out as far.
If so keep the waterpump pully, all of our diesel WP pullys are a deep dish.
Get a diesel crank
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The gasser wp pulley on the diesel crank pulley DOES interfere.
(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss212/rs899/DSCF6457.jpg)
What is that a picture of?
Gasser crank pully and a gasser WP pully?
Too large to work with the diesel crank pully means the diameter is too large?
I sort of remember the crank pullys that go with the 40mm Wpump had a larger diameter and I ran into the same problem when swapping to 30mm on my very first Rabbit..
Sounds like you are looking for a diesel crank pully, just a tin one, same diameter as the gasser but doesn't stick out as far.
If so keep the waterpump pully, all of our diesel WP pullys are a deep dish.
Get a diesel crank
the 40mm pulleys were found on the 1.5 diesels. they used a crank pulley that was SMALLER than the rest of the 1.6 and 1.9 engines..
i took a 1.5D crank pulley, and spaced it out ~3mm from the crank on a 1.6d.. that lined it up with my existing pulleys. and my 30mm water pump pulley was MUCH smaller than the 40mm pullley. made myself an under drive pulley set with OEM parts, and a little aluminum spacer..
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(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss212/rs899/IMG_20130104_111146.jpg)
(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss212/rs899/IMG_20130104_111825.jpg)
Helps to have a buddy with a full machine shop in his garage who happens to like diesels ( MBs anyway)
So, he made me a 10mm spacer,- looks like I need to add some washers under the pulley (it was hard to measure that and I wanted to be under).
So, looks like this (gasser pulleys)will work (right?) . Now I need to measure up where the alternator will go.
I have a set of cast pulleys that I swear came off an early 1.6 diesel block. They should work, but I have a lifetime supply of 30mm water pumps, so why not use those?
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that spacer is not hubcentric.. the pulley will NEVER be centered.. it will likely cause belt jump as well.
and how are you going to space the alternator properly? your crank pulley is from a gasser. it sticks out WAY too far. get a diesel pulley.
if you use a gasser crank pulley, like you have, then you will need to space ALL THE OTHER PULLEYS out the same amount.
do yourself a favor, and rather than trying to scab gasser pulleys on a diesel, just buy the right pulleys..
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that spacer is not hubcentric.. the pulley will NEVER be centered.
This is a valid concern. Unfortunately 10mm puts it out of touch with the wp hub.
In my feeble mind I don't see why I can't align it properly using a reference point ( like the crank pulley that's only 2mm or so away) and spinning/tightening until it spins true.
I'm open to being talked out of this on that basis alone if it is truly a horrible idea.
Once again, wrt the alternator, I am starting from a clean sheet of paper.
I am going to mount a plate over the wp housing using the 4 bolts. Then locate a block on that to mount the Fox bracket on. The Fox pulley is quite long so will go with any arrangement of crank/wp pulley. That's all that I am going to drive- no steenking A/C or Power Steering.
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that spacer is not hubcentric.. the pulley will NEVER be centered.
This is a valid concern. Unfortunately 10mm puts it out of touch with the wp hub.
In my feeble mind I don't see why I can't align it properly using a reference point ( like the crank pulley that's only 2mm or so away) and spinning/tightening until it spins true.
I'm open to being talked out of this on that basis alone if it is truly a horrible idea.
Once again, wrt the alternator, I am starting from a clean sheet of paper.
I am going to mount a plate over the wp housing using the 4 bolts. Then locate a block on that to mount the Fox bracket on. The Fox pulley is quite long so will go with any arrangement of crank/wp pulley. That's all that I am going to drive- no steenking A/C or Power Steering.
ALL VW alt pulleys are long yo..
why not just get a set of proper pulleys so you dont have to bastardize every single piece of the install?
i really disagree with your spacer, and your plate to relocate the alt bracket..
you are really over-complicating things! the proper pulleys, and everything would bolt right up.. even the alternator on the stock fox bracket..
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you are really over-complicating things! the proper pulleys, and everything would bolt right up.. even the alternator on the stock fox bracket..
I hear you on the wp pulley. I'm not sold on what I have done there so far.
So, how's the Fox bracket going to mount up? I don't see any holes on the diesel block. I am going to HAVE to bastardize that bit unless I have a non - AC diesel bracket
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you are really over-complicating things! the proper pulleys, and everything would bolt right up.. even the alternator on the stock fox bracket..
I hear you on the wp pulley. I'm not sold on what I have done there so far.
So, how's the Fox bracket going to mount up? I don't see any holes on the diesel block. I am going to HAVE to bastardize that bit unless I have a non - AC diesel bracket
how are there no holes to mount it? it should mount to the water pump bolts, like any other VW alt bracket..
unless you have a Quantum alternator bracket, witch mounts to the back side of the engine..
gas or diesel, ALL VW ENGINES of the same generation, have the same mounting locations..
the OLD 1.5 diesels were lacking a few mounting bosses tho..
the alt bracket SHOULD bolt on over the water pump, with the bolts for the water pump..
post a pic of the bracket you have..
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(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss212/rs899/IMG_20130104_140842.jpg)
Here's the Fox bracket living happily on the gasser (JH) block. Fox alternator below.
It just a dingus of a little bracket- not what you were thinking, huh?
(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss212/rs899/IMG_20130104_140945.jpg)
Here's where it magically needs to go on my early 1.6 IDI. Notice the IP is where the gasser holes would be.
(http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss212/rs899/IMG_20130104_141105.jpg)
These are the other pulleys I have. The top one is a MK2 crank (that will probably complicate things, plus I may need it elesewhere). The bottom 2 are the , I think, matched set of early 1.6 I have, for 40mm wp.
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wow, totally forgot about that.. the gasser bracket mounts where the injection pump brkt is bolted to the block.
i dont think that bracket is gonna do the trick tho, because the diesel alternator is low mounted, and tensioned from below.
the gasser alt is high mounted, and tensions from the top..
and i would get a 30m w/p pulley, because you likely will have a tough time finding a 40mm unit.. they are getting somewhat scarce because they are SOO OLD..
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^^ Man, I know you are trying to help, but you're not completely listening. ;)
I HAVE a 40mm wp pulley. I HAVE it's mate ( I think) diesel crank pulley . These are the 2 cast iron ones at the bottom of the last set of pix. I can get a 40mm wp no prob from Rock Auto for $11. But I'm not sure I won't have the same offset problem as these are no doubt from an A/C car . Not already having a 40mm wp in hand, I don't know how things will line up.
I know either way I will have to devise a solution for the alternator, but I am hopeful (since I have a buddy with a lathe, drill press etc). I think the tensioner will be the biggest problem- mounting the alt bracket not so much.
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I have been where you are now. You have the WRONG crank pulley. The inner groove should be tight against the block.
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/564210_3443042947474_935688044_n.jpg)
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^^ Right- that was a gasser crank pulley I was using.
I went ahead and bought a 40mm water pump to see how it works with the pulleys I have.
I will try it with the cast pair pictured on the bottom of post #13 and see how it lines up.
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Save yourself the headache and just find a correct set of pullies or do a serp swap.
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Save yourself the headache and just find a correct set of pullies or do a serp swap.
thats been said a bunch now..
he is adamant about beating his head on the wall, and trying to use the incorrect gasser pulleys..
to the OP: all the spacers you are making, are just acting as big levers.. the farther away the pulley is from the bearings, the more load they put on the bearings, thats why mk3 water pumps ALWAYS fail, because they have a big long lever, i mean, pulley on them..
WHY NOT get the correct crank pulley? the crank pulley is really all you NEED..
someone on here has to have a pile of them..
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That pulley would work for eliminating AC with the right pump and alternator pulley, without being forced to buy new brackets. I was messing around with that idea but could not source the right alternator pulley.
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Repeating myself
I went ahead and bought a 40mm water pump to see how it works with the pulleys I have.
I will try it with the cast pair pictured on the bottom of post #13 and see how it lines up.
I already have a set of old cast diesel pulleys including a 40mm water pump pulley.
I just got in a new 40mm water pump last night. Tried to split the water pump assemblies I have but so far either the bolts are seized or the gaskets are glued so tightly that careful work will be required to separate them.
The dynamic will definitely change as the 40mm wp shaft is shorter
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Instead of a 40mm water pump ...dead horse... just go get the correct crank pulley and be done. The ammount of time you spent trying to get the bolts out of your water pump housing the entire job would have been done.
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^^ Please define "go get". There's no reasonable source of new parts.
Also, what makes a 40mm water pump a "dead horse"?
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Telling you that over again is like kicking a dead horse. Have fun in your venture, but I would have at least made one post in the FS section stating you wanted to buy a crank pulley. To me one pulley, 4 bolts a dead blow hammer, and 30 minutes is easier than what you have been into. If it is a learning experience I get it, but if not for learning how to do something for me that kind of thing is a waste. To each his own.
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The 40mm waterpump pully was a valid option.
It should line up well with your diesel crank pully.
Getting the alternator to line up with them will be the next trick.
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It depends on if he has a short or a tall water pump. I discovered that I had originally had a 40MM pulley for the tall pump, in my 81 Caddy NA. I had accidentally threw it away found another 40MM pulley, but discovered that it was for a short pump, it was pushed out too far. I bought a 30MM tall pump and used a pulley I found off a gas engine, seen above in my previous post for how it lined up. No shims, no spacers, it just works.
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The 40mm waterpump pully was a valid option.
It should line up well with your diesel crank pully.
Getting the alternator to line up with them will be the next trick.
Yes, it worked.
I managed to find what I think must be a Mk2 alt/AC bracket in my pile of junk and mounted the alternator on that.
I rounded up all the alternators and alternator pulleys I have and came up with a combo that seems to work. I think it may have been the old alternator from this heap (EN engine) with a pulley from a Fox. Who knows, but all seems to be well now. I don't even think I need any machine shop help at this point. That may change when I need to come up with a tensioner.
Part of the reason I went through the seemingly nonsensical gyrations earlier had to do with a window of opportunity I had. I had 2 weeks of vacation and the family was out of the country. My goal was to get the engine in the car and get it running. The pulley put a damper on that. Had I been able to work with what I had rather than waiting for parts to arrive, I might have gotten closer.
I do have the engine loosely in place, but now it will be several weekends before I can get all the crap bolted on etc. Having a freshly honed block in this humid place makes me nervous.
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The 40mm waterpump pully was a valid option.
It should line up well with your diesel crank pully.
Getting the alternator to line up with them will be the next trick.
Yes, it worked.
I managed to find what I think must be a Mk2 alt/AC bracket in my pile of junk and mounted the alternator on that.
I rounded up all the alternators and alternator pulleys I have and came up with a combo that seems to work. I think it may have been the old alternator from this heap (EN engine) with a pulley from a Fox. Who knows, but all seems to be well now. I don't even think I need any machine shop help at this point. That may change when I need to come up with a tensioner.
Part of the reason I went through the seemingly nonsensical gyrations earlier had to do with a window of opportunity I had. I had 2 weeks of vacation and the family was out of the country. My goal was to get the engine in the car and get it running. The pulley put a damper on that. Had I been able to work with what I had rather than waiting for parts to arrive, I might have gotten closer.
I do have the engine loosely in place, but now it will be several weekends before I can get all the crap bolted on etc. Having a freshly honed block in this humid place makes me nervous.
just keep it wet with spray oil...
if i can keep blocks rust free on the beach, then its not a hard task..