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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: Henk on December 21, 2012, 09:16:25 am
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Hi there all
Been doing a bit of research into intercooling my 1.9TDi engine...
now normally i'd just go for a huge FMIC and stick it infront of the radiator
The trouble is that the engine is now in the bed of the caddy, and doing that would lead to a boost system about 5 metres long, which as you can imagine, not ideal...
So my other options seem to be:
-floor mounted air scoop in the underside with an intercooler mounted above that. may result in ending up with a high pressure bed area and reduced efficiency (assuming tailgate and bed cover are on)
-cheap ebay water to air intercooler of unknown quality, possibly welded into the intake manifold for a nice short simple boost piping. then stick the pump, reservoir and second radiator (v mount?) in the engine bay
-as above but using a 4x6 barrel intercooler mounted inline
-get some Laminova water to air intercooling 'bars' and integrate into a DIY intake manifold
Just curious as to what the thoughts are on this forum.
would love to hear any advice on the subject
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i've seen people piece together air to water intercoolers for pretty cheap, gotta be creative. i think one guy used a ford probe or mazda oil cooler or something. aren't air to water intercoolers more efficient as well?
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Naca Ducts?
(http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL267/1824562/3516975/47342836.jpg)
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Air-water. If you're doing it on the cheap you can re-purpose oil coolers or regular radiators for the cooling end up front. A decent pump is the Rule live bait well marine pump, about $40 new. Model 401 I think...
I used 5/8" garden hose (the red industrial type) for all my lines, w/ brass barbed fittings.
I have a U-shaped intercooler for sale, if you're interested PM me, I went with a straight-thu type instead.
My current config (Vanagon rear-engined)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/mccavittj/DSCF6586.jpg)
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never considered building an intercooler like that i must admit. they tend to go for fairly cheap on ebay anyway
There's a lot of argument about the efficiency, i suppose they will be if you can keep the water cool enough, they're also better at flowing the air from what i understand
ideally i'd like to get my hands on a pair of long but low radiators so i can run the 2 in v-mount up front, but will probably just end up being one infront of the other
i did consider ducting, but a bit bigger than that ;)
just come across this on ebay, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER-4-2-SUPERCHARGED-O-S-INLET-CHARGE-COOLER-2W93-9424-BH-E9531000-NEW-/251190765142?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3a7c22e656 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER-4-2-SUPERCHARGED-O-S-INLET-CHARGE-COOLER-2W93-9424-BH-E9531000-NEW-/251190765142?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3a7c22e656) having a water to air welded into the intake manifold looks like a damn fine idea, boost piping would be nice and simple too.
cheers for the heads up on the pump, i'll see what i can find over here.
Using hose pipe sounds good too, although i'd probably want to get some nice stainless overbraid pipes in the future.
Can't imagine it'd be very economically viable to send it all the way over here, but thanks anyway!
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A properly designed air to liquid intercooler will outperform an air to air system in every way. Lower intake temps, better flow and reduced intake volume (faster spooling). The downsides are higher cost, added complexity and more parts to fail.
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holy tubing batman! :o
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glad to hear that, sounds fairly win-win then. only part really liable to fail would be the water pump surely?
As long as i have a temp gauge for the circuit(or post-IC charge temp?) i can make sure it's working properly anyway
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you going to have a roll bar on your truck ?? if so why dont you make that your intercooler , discharge pas side inlet drivers side , you be able to put your hand out of the window and feel your inlet temp when 200horses are geting set down , how sweet would that be ;)
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glad to hear that, sounds fairly win-win then. only part really liable to fail would be the water pump surely?
Well, no. While the pump is the most likely failure, you can also have a hose fail or most expensive would be to have the extra radiator leak. You will also need to incorporate some accommodation for coolant expansion (e.g. tank) and that can also fail.
All that said, I am in no way opposed to air/water installs and will likely go that route on my '79 rabbit.
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probably not, i want to run a bed cover for a little discretion (apart from it's going to need an engine bump in it :P) plus it'd be nice to have a bit of a 'boot' left to put cr4p in.
It's a nice thought though! I wonder what kind of cooling standard pipework does... as i'll have the pipework for both radiators running up the underside of the tunnel.
hmm true, but at least it wouldn't be fatal for this system to go down (would just run worse). rather that than main radiator or water pump fall apart!
will definitely have a tank, any extra weight over the front will be a bonus, as odd as it sounds i'm very worried about understeer
That's good to know that there are others too, have seen quite a few running W2A intercooling
Anyone UK-based that could recommend me good/cheap radiators?
I'm a long way off doing any of this yet but the more i can get planned ahead the better
Still struggling with M-TDi setup :(
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landrover pump one noch forward (clock wise) on std 1z fixed pully on the pump pully , and the rest of engine TDC no1 and you should be able to fire her up and fine tune from there ,
how about a SS roof rack intercooler ,man that wood be sick :P
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you don't realise how little i know what i'm doing ???
i'm going to make another thread about setting up the engine/pump to keep things tidy
And i'm not scene enough for a roofrack :P
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the hairy Olds used the tube frame as the radiator...
(http://www.oldsmobility.com/old/images/testphotos/HotRodMay66_pg3of3_skeleton.jpg)
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the hairy Olds used the tube frame as the radiator...
(http://www.oldsmobility.com/old/images/testphotos/HotRodMay66_pg3of3_skeleton.jpg)
my god....
that car is amazing..
remember seeing pics of this car doing 4x4 burn outs in magazines when i was a kid.
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2 blowing 350? what power did that put out , that car would be slick at glames with a set off paddles
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They recon about 2000HP. No 350, it's two Olds Toronado 425CI powertrains.
Well covered on the web if you search 'Hurst hairy Olds'
(http://www.supercarsunlimited.com/info/photos/funstuff/66HHO/Image7.gif)
/threadjack
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They recon about 2000HP. No 350, it's two Olds Toronado 425CI powertrains.
Well covered on the web if you search 'Hurst hairy Olds'
(http://www.supercarsunlimited.com/info/photos/funstuff/66HHO/Image7.gif)
/threadjack
i thought they had 455ci engines, and TH425 transmixer tho?
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nope. they had both according to wikipedia..
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A far as radiators, you could just double up on two stock GTI units. Since the exits for the coolant hoses are on the same side, just use the one in the front for the AWIC and the rear one set 1-2" to the driver side for the engine. Run the engine coolant pipes through the exhaust tunnel like you said, and voila!
And as far as integrating the AWIC into the intake manifold, I have seen it done on the vortex before. It was done to an ABA w/ a Neuspeed supercharger by cutting the intake between the SC and where the intake runners turn to go into the head (link: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5866260-Custom-Neuspeed-Supercharger-for-ABA-OBDII (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5866260-Custom-Neuspeed-Supercharger-for-ABA-OBDII)). You could use a TD or PD intake to do the same thing, or better yet do it to a non-turbo 1Y manifold by welding the original intake port shut, cutting the long side open facing the front and weld a wide thick AWIC radiator area in. Kinda like what the ABA guy did.
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A far as radiators, you could just double up on two stock GTI units. Since the exits for the coolant hoses are on the same side, just use the one in the front for the AWIC and the rear one set 1-2" to the driver side for the engine. Run the engine coolant pipes through the exhaust tunnel like you said, and voila!
And as far as integrating the AWIC into the intake manifold, I have seen it done on the vortex before. It was done to an ABA w/ a Neuspeed supercharger by cutting the intake between the SC and where the intake runners turn to go into the head (link: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5866260-Custom-Neuspeed-Supercharger-for-ABA-OBDII (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5866260-Custom-Neuspeed-Supercharger-for-ABA-OBDII)). You could use a TD or PD intake to do the same thing, or better yet do it to a non-turbo 1Y manifold by welding the original intake port shut, cutting the long side open facing the front and weld a wide thick AWIC radiator area in. Kinda like what the ABA guy did.
josh was planning on building an A2W intermanicooler as well... that was a while ago as well.
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www.frozenboost.com
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www.frozenboost.com
I got my AWIC from those guys. I've been very very happy with it!
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Did you buy their "kit" or did you make it up yourself?
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I have been thinking about (not building yet) a long narrow intercooler at the root of the windshield in the area where the windshield wiper mechanism is.
It is a high pressure area.
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Did you buy their "kit" or did you make it up yourself?
I bought their kit, the "600HP" kit. I changed the intercooler to the 'straight through' one and mounted it above the transmission. I also upgraded to the Bosch water pump (hey, Bosch parts on a VW? Who'd have thunk it?) and I got their hose and fittings kit.
In the end I didn't have enough room for the fan on the intercooler rad. It hasn't been a big issue at all though. The intercooler rad is about as big as my engine rad so even just with passive cooling it has more than enough area to cool down the boost water. The engine rad is still mounted in the factory position at the bottom but I had to move the top back by about an inch and a half to fit the intercooler rad in front. I've got the IC pump mounted on the frame rail at the low point in the system. Thus far I have had no issues with it whatsoever.
I have a small "burp" tank on the exit side of the AWIC. That ensures any air bubbles leave the system rather than circulating through over and over. Mine is a little hokie - I used a Princess Auto plastic paint mixing can with some plastic fittings epoxied on to it. It's been a year and a half since I put it in though with no problems.
It works really well - there's not really any way I can heat soak it. The post-AWIC pipe is always cold to the touch while the pre-AWIC pipe is often too hot to keep your hand on it after you've been boosting a lot. In fact the silicon couplings have changed colour a bit on the "hot" side while they still look brand new on the "cold" side - pretty definitive proof that there's a big temperature differential there! I have a meat thermometer in my burp tank - at worst I see about 10-15°C over ambient there, but remember that is the exit side of the AWIC so it is "hot" water. I can't find the calculation any more, but I believe the exit temperature from a K24 at 25PSI at 20°C ambient will be over 100°C. Exit temperature from the AWIC is pretty darn close to ambient again. Naturally the only way I can really measure that is to boost up a big hill then pull over and pop the hood.
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Vanbcguy, care to show some pictures? I might have been sweating over how to mount a AAIC in a MK1 for all this time when It might be better to run air-water. Might even use my own suggestion with the '2 rads' thing. The AWIC roll bar idea is great also; paint black for optimal dissapation, with good area on the bar for shedding heat.
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Sure!
Here's the kit:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/254061_10150269207601427_5457178_n.jpg)
Test fit:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/240848_10150269259686427_5738251_o.jpg)
Inside of the AWIC:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/250090_10150269260366427_3467943_n.jpg)
Installed:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/259601_10150273094226427_6467421_o.jpg)
AWIC Radiator installed:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/259435_10150273456316427_3583395_o.jpg)
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Have you had it long enough to measure any fuel economy change?
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Have you had it long enough to measure any fuel economy change?
I am going to assume that with the size of that radiator and their claim to cool intake charge to near ambient (as Bryn has said it does to within a few degrees or so) that is has caused a substantial increase in efficiency!
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Vanbcguy, that setup is beautiful! So much less piping distance than an front mount air-to-air, and with the claims you make that must mean great spool and efficiency under boost. Checked out the 600Hp kit, and it's very customizable; I like it a lot, especially the selection of heat exchangers to fit in front of various sizes and heights of radiators. Beats the heck out of cutting a MK1 front support member to fit an ebay IC.
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Have you had it long enough to measure any fuel economy change?
I've been running it for nearly 2 years now, I put it in May 2011.
Yep, there was a definite increase in economy - I am reading here in the TDI forum now as I have an AHU sitting on my garage floor I just bought, but my current motor is a 1.6TD. My overall "average" numbers are a bit tricky to sort as I tow a trailer with my car fairly often on my longer trips, but my best ever "naked" number prior to the intercooler was 6.7L/100km with most of my runs in the mid 7's. That was running at about 15PSI. Since the intercooler I've been running my K24 at around 22PSI, and my best recorded economy was exactly 5.0L/100km. Most highway trips are coming in the mid to low 6's here in the Pacific Northwest. On average post-IC the numbers have been much better, but I would have to start doing actual math to give a specific number.
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Vanbcguy, that setup is beautiful! So much less piping distance than an front mount air-to-air, and with the claims you make that must mean great spool and efficiency under boost. Checked out the 600Hp kit, and it's very customizable; I like it a lot, especially the selection of heat exchangers to fit in front of various sizes and heights of radiators. Beats the heck out of cutting a MK1 front support member to fit an ebay IC.
Thanks!
Yes, it spools super quick - there was no measurable difference between the "pre-IC" spool times and the "post-IC" spool times, at least getting to 15PSI where I was before. It of course takes longer to get all the way up to 22 where I run now. I saw absolutely ZERO pressure drop on my boost gauge after installing the AWIC either. They claim 0.1PSI - I'd say that was probably pretty accurate. Really the AWIC is so oversized for such a tiny engine that I'd bet it isn't even dropping 0.1.
And yeah - I absolutely was not willing to cut the front supports and things on Jezzie. Mk III cars only get a 3-star crash rating, and that's for the airbag equipped models. There's no published stats I can find for a non-airbag Mk III like Jezzie, but I really can't imagine that cutting away anything in the "crash" areas of the car would do anything positive to her crash rating. I've got a kid now, makes you think about things like that!!
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Can I assume that the cooler tube is full of several rows of cooling fins rather than a single row like a heater core?
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Can I assume that the cooler tube is full of several rows of cooling fins rather than a single row like a heater core?
Definitely quite a bit different than a heater core! They are closer to an engine radiator in some ways. A "naked" AWIC core looks like this:
(http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/Catalog%20Images/Intercoolers/ATP-INT-009_450.jpg)
The end to end passages are separated from the side to side passages. In my AWIC air is flowing in one end of the core and out the other, while water is flowing in one side and out the other. The core above is reversed (water goes in the ends, air goes in the sides) but you get the idea. The hot air is in contact with the cold water in mine for over a foot - plenty of surface area and time in contact to suck the heat out of it.
(http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tuning/Images/Air%20Water%20Intercooler.jpg)
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That's the same charge cooler I'm using .For the front I went with a smaller, 2" thick radiator in the lower grille opening of the van. No intake air temp monitor, but the EGTs never get above 1100* at 18psi even on hard pulls, and the charge cooler is cool to the touch in the engine bay. This is an AAZ, which runs very hot when modded... the 1.6 will have huge room to pour on the coals with this setup.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/mccavittj/DSCF6098.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/mccavittj/DSCF6065.jpg)
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That's it, I'm convinced and converted. AWIC, here I come. . . . when money comes first. :)
Thanks for the great pics and unofficial reviews of how an AWIC can perform on even a modded IDI, guys!
And 8v, I know you're gonna read this, so I'll say it now; I'll meth inject it later! :P
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And 8v, I know you're gonna read this, so I'll say it now; I'll meth inject it later! :P
IT WILL BE BEAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You might not have to if you go with one of the www.frozenboost.com units.. COOLS TO AMBIENT!