VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 92EcoDiesel Jetta on December 02, 2012, 08:38:23 am
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The starter in my Caddy maybe on the fritz and either needs rebuilding or replacement. I notice it is a bigger unit (physically) than the one in my 92 Eco. I have a low mileage spare starter (60K) from a 91 Eco (MK2). Will it fit in my MK1 Caddy?
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I put a MK2 starter in my caddy. It just has the extra portion on the flange for the MK2 Motor mount.
Might as well change the bushing too.
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I use mkii starters as well
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The smaller starters are heaps better than the big ones.
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I put a MK2 starter in my caddy. It just has the extra portion on the flange for the MK2 Motor mount.
Might as well change the bushing too.
Bushing? What bushing? pic? p/n? Thanks!
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The bushing is a bronze sleeve that is pressed into the bellhousing, to accept the end of the starter shaft.
It is a normal wear-item, that if ignored can strand you, as the starter drags and beats-up the pinion & flywheel.
Some guys have simply threaded a bolt into the old one and pulled it out - drive in a new one with a wood block.
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AutohausAZ #113301155
(http://www.autohausaz.com/secure/PartImages/113301155.jpg)
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=nieuca45vwepvq55mpnd1h2k&partnumber=113301155
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Fill it full of oil and press with your fingers and you get a pre lubed bushing. I had a writeup on here long time ago...
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AutohausAZ #113301155
(http://www.autohausaz.com/secure/PartImages/113301155.jpg)
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=nieuca45vwepvq55mpnd1h2k&partnumber=113301155
Thanks for the p/n. Ordering from Autohausaz takes a week for the $50 free shipping so I called Advance auto parts and gave them the VW p/n 113 301 155 and believe it or not they can order it and have it by Dec 7th for $1.73 ea. ! It's from a company by the name of IMC, probably the same one Autohausaz sells.
As far as tapping the bushing and pulling it out with a bolt can someone who has done it provide more specific info such as what size tap you used and what can go wrong? I took a look at a spare 020 transmission I have and that bushing has pretty thin walls and I am afraid of stripping the soft bronz if not done right.
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IIRC, when I changed the last one, I just cranked a long 12mm bolt into the old bushing and did some kind of ghetto slide-hammer action to pull it out.
Main things to watch: not to beat up the aluminum bore, and to drive the new bushing in straight, without dinging it up (hence the wood block).
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When I did it I just inserted the tap and kept turning until the bushing started spinning. Then I kept turning and pulled at the same time and it came out. Use the most course tap that you have.
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When I did it I just inserted the tap and kept turning until the bushing started spinning. Then I kept turning and pulled at the same time and it came out. Use the most course tap that you have.
ditto
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This is on the 'to do' list on my Caddy/AAZ project. Love the cheap part, too.
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=27559.0
found the writeup and updated pics.
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I made a plug gage the same diameter as the starter motor shaft and found the bushing in the Caddy tranny is not worn at all! It actually has less play than a new bushing! Saves me from having to R&R the bushing. I'll just grease it up. Pulling the starter was a breeze in the Caddy compared to a MK2. I'll be taking the starter apart to see what's wrong with it.
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You do realize when you press a bushing into the hole it closes down some.
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You do realize when you press a bushing into the hole it closes down some.
Yes that thought did come up in my mind. How much it closes down depends on how tight the interference fit is. How much? It can't be that much.
Do you know what the acceptable clearance limits are between starter shaft and bushing?
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I don't know for sure, but I had one that was .011" bigger than the new one and it wouldn't start the car. I would guess it closes about. 010".
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I will go ahead and replace the bushing. It'll be interesting to see how much less play the new bushing will have after pressed in.
How did you drive the new bushing in? Did you make a press with a plate on the tranny starter mounting holes and a bolt or made a tool with a shoulder and tapped it in with a hammer?
Edit:
Just spoke to a starter rebuild shop and was told VW is about the only mfg he can think of where one of the starter bushings is in the tranny. Every other manufacturers, both bushings are in the starter motor.
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I made a plug gage the same diameter as the starter motor shaft and found the bushing in the Caddy tranny is not worn at all! It actually has less play than a new bushing! Saves me from having to R&R the bushing. I'll just grease it up. Pulling the starter was a breeze in the Caddy compared to a MK2. I'll be taking the starter apart to see what's wrong with it.
thats quite impossible..
the mk1 starters are direct drive, huge, and power hungry..
the mk2 and later starters are gear-reduction starters.. they have a set of planetary gears inside them, they draw much less amperage, and put out MORE power because of the gear-reduction..
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I made a plug gage the same diameter as the starter motor shaft and found the bushing in the Caddy tranny is not worn at all! It actually has less play than a new bushing! Saves me from having to R&R the bushing. I'll just grease it up. Pulling the starter was a breeze in the Caddy compared to a MK2. I'll be taking the starter apart to see what's wrong with it.
thats quite impossible..
the mk1 starters are direct drive, huge, and power hungry..
the mk2 and later starters are gear-reduction starters.. they have a set of planetary gears inside them, they draw much less amperage, and put out MORE power because of the gear-reduction..
What's quite impossible? That the new bushing has more play than the old bushing? Well that is what I felt with the gage I made. Maybe the cheapo new bushing is crap and out of tolerance? May when the new bushing is driven in it shrinks a little? I'll find out when I install the new bushing.
Do you have an exploded view of a MK2 gear reduction starter? Would starters from a TDI fit in MK1 or MK2 and will it spin faster?
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I made a plug gage the same diameter as the starter motor shaft and found the bushing in the Caddy tranny is not worn at all! It actually has less play than a new bushing! Saves me from having to R&R the bushing. I'll just grease it up. Pulling the starter was a breeze in the Caddy compared to a MK2. I'll be taking the starter apart to see what's wrong with it.
thats quite impossible..
the mk1 starters are direct drive, huge, and power hungry..
the mk2 and later starters are gear-reduction starters.. they have a set of planetary gears inside them, they draw much less amperage, and put out MORE power because of the gear-reduction..
What's quite impossible? That the new bushing has more play than the old bushing? Well that is what I felt with the gage I made. Maybe the cheapo new bushing is crap and out of tolerance? May when the new bushing is driven in it shrinks a little? I'll find out when I install the new bushing.
Do you have an exploded view of a MK2 gear reduction starter? Would starters from a TDI fit in MK1 or MK2 and will it spin faster?
only TDI starter that will work is a starter from an AHU, with an AUTOMATIC.. mk3 TDI auto..
they dont spin any faster than a good mk2/3 gear reduction starter.. the TDI starter uses no bushing on the end of the shaft tho..
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When I did it I just inserted the tap and kept turning until the bushing started spinning. Then I kept turning and pulled at the same time and it came out. Use the most course tap that you have.
Thanks for this tip. I used a 12 x 1.75 tap and it came out easily on a junk 020 tranny to practice on.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20130117_161205.jpg)
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20130117_161345.jpg)
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I made this mandrel bushing driver to practice on the junk tranny before doing the Caddy.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20130117_163022.jpg)
Also made this simple jig to insure the bushing is driven in straight.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20130117_162841.jpg)
Bushing is in the junk tranny, all the way to the bottom. The hole is deeper than the bushing and I think it should not be bottommed out for better support of the starter shaft. I will modify the mandrel driver for controlled depth.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20130117_162935.jpg)
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You do realize when you press a bushing into the hole it closes down some.
The starter shaft measured 0.430". I made the gage slightly larger, around 0.435. The 0.435 gage fit in the old bushing but not the new bushing after it was driven in, confirming it closes down a little in a press fit hole.
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So do the mk2 starters spin as fast as the mk1 starters, even though they use gear reduction?
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Using a MK2 starter sounds like a good thing to do, however more info on what years they were made would be helpful. Or what to ask for in a parts store, ebay, etc. Bosch #? Any info would be nice. Thanks
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Using a MK2 starter sounds like a good thing to do, however more info on what years they were made would be helpful. Or what to ask for in a parts store, ebay, etc. Bosch #? Any info would be nice. Thanks
Look for a starter from a 91 or 92 Jetta diesel. Here's a reman from Advance auto for $89 + $22 core charge. Don't know about its quality though it does have 1 positive review.
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_starter-worldwide_5847435-p?searchTerm=starter#fragment-3
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My spare gear reduction starter stopped spinning for some reason? Anyone taken one of these apart? I am stuck at the stage as in pic below. I've got the C retainer clips off on both ends of the armature but it does not seem to want to come out. What do I have to do next? These are supposed to have permanent magnets. Maybe that's why they are such compact starters? Is the magnets holding it in?
Edit: There's a C clip in this pic but it's been removed.
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20130118_152146.jpg)
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OH yeah..
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haha not fair, you edited te pic before I commented ;) No idea, never had one apart.
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haha not fair, you edited te pic before I commented ;) No idea, never had one apart.
Maybe you can comment on my question in this thread?
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32687.0
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Im using a mk4 alh automatic trans starter in my mk2 td and it cranks that thing over crazy fast.
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Now is that because it is actually stronger? or has 745k less miles on it then your 20 year old one had? lol
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Im using a mk4 alh automatic trans starter in my mk2 td and it cranks that thing over crazy fast.
Do you have a p/n for the starter? Pics I've found on it show that it has a different nose drive mechanism than my 91/92 MK2 starter. Just to be clear, your MK2 has a 020 tranny right? Does it have to be a MK4 ALH automatic starter or can it be a MK4 ALH manual starter? What are the diferences?
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manual starter has the 02a 02j flywheel. The mk3 and mk4 manual starter will not work. Auto's do theough. different flywheel.
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manual starter has the 02a 02j flywheel. The mk3 and mk4 manual starter will not work. Auto's do theough. different flywheel.
Manual mk3 starter WILL work, provided its from an AAZ, or ABA car..
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manual starter has the 02a 02j flywheel. The mk3 and mk4 manual starter will not work. Auto's do theough. different flywheel.
Manual mk3 starter WILL work, provided its from an AAZ, or ABA car..
We were discussing TDI starters.