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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: ORCoaster on November 21, 2012, 07:49:03 pm
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In my adventures of the week I removed the intake and exhaust manifolds and was in the process of putting on the new header and exhaust system. But I also needed to change oil and I took the liberty to install one of those Frantz toilet paper filters. In my efforts to check that oil filter I took the return line and put it into the empty oil jug to judge the return flow back to the oil pan.
It is colder here than normal and the car had trouble smoothing out. I noticed air blowing out the intake ports and then I had oil spraying out the back as well. Do those holes that hold the manifold go all the way through the head somehow? I don't remember that being a problem in the past. I had half a quart of oil running down the back of the engine by the time I got it shut off. I ended up with about two quarts of oil in the jug from the Frantz filter. About that time I think I started to drain the oil pan down to the point that air was getting into the lines of that filter and that started oil shooting everywhere out the tee I had on the line and hanging on top the jug. I was smart enough to take the car out of the garage and into the driveway. Good thinking there.
I am not sure if I have bad rings or not. Tomorrow or the next day I will have the compression tester on it but last time, 6mts ago, I had nearly 480 on all four cylinders.
Any ideas where the oil out the back might have been coming from. I don't think it was the gasket as that is new and the vent hose was off of the top of the VC.
Hope to get this straightened out.
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The exhaust studs and intake bolts don't go into any oil jackets?
So your valve cover gasket?
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after a head gasket service, i start the engine with no manifolds, just to make sure that its worth it to finish putting it back together..
ive never had oil running out of my manifold bolt holes..
exhaust studs are way too low for that..
the intake holes MIGHT be high enough to be at oil level, but they should not be drilled thru the casting..
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Kind of what I thought as I too leave off the manifolds when i did the Head Gasket just a few months ago. So why now with the oil I don't know.
Damac, I had the hose off the top of the Valve cover so no possible back pressure there. Smoke was puffing out of it like a locomotive.
And why was that?
Went over this morning with the help of #1 son here for the Turkey feed. We pulled the injector lines and bodies and threw on the Harbor Freight compression tester dealy.
#1 cyl = 480 lbs
#2 = 480 lbs
Looking good and hoping for good things.
#3 = 200 lbs oh no!
#4 = 500 lbs
So now what? Buy a set of regular rings and replace the possibly worn or broken ones?
Pull head, measure cylinder, determine damage or wear and do a one oversize replacement?
Can you do just one piston replacement?
Let me know what you think. And don't fall asleep with the turkey belly before you finish the reply.
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... don't fall asleep with the turkey belly before you finish the reply.
Vegetarian here.
If you had 400+ before, I think the rings are likely ok. Particularly, if you didn't notice a manifold full of oil when taking things apart.
I would re-torque the head and see if the compression readings change. There might be a bum gasket, or a problem with installation.
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There might be a bum gasket, or a problem with installation.
Tyler, Not a bad suggestion but I don't have oil or gas build up in the coolant. Hence i am thinking the rings. Would I not have those as symptoms? Did get it running long enough to have a nice cloud of blue smoke surrounding the engine compartment. A haze of sorts.
My son tells me the problem is in the age of the car and age of the mechanic. Mechanic being the worst, and older of the two. Smart alack kid.
Right at the end of all of this he asks as he is standing on drivers side looking into the engine bay,
"What's with the boot off the axle there?" Crap, time to throw in the wrench and call it a holiday. Axle out tomorrow I guess. Not sure how it came off but it's off. And just recently, like while in the buddy's garage as there is no grease thrown about anywhere.
When it rains it pours I guess.
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Rings don't usually go bad in 6mo, unless one breaks, IIRC.
Oil out the manifolds sounds more like bad valve guides & seals. A bad guide, lifter or valve seat might also get you pressure out the intake and bad compression reading.
Why the recent HG? Any other history of this engine that could be related?
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Ah history does tell. New HG actually goes with the new head rebuild so all gaskets, valve seals, valve guides and head components are only in service for a few months. I broke the injector boss on the #1 cylinder at some point and figured best replace the head before the problems got worse.
Rings were not part of that fix and there are 137K on them. But mention of the valve clearance makes me wonder about the pressure. I did have an issue with them previously and had to replace a couple of shims when I got the head torque down after the first 5-800 miles. Seats could be setting in or out I guess.
More to ponder after a plate of mama's best all day efforts. Smelling super good in here.
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Can you do a leak down test?
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I might be able to pull a GP and hook up a vacuum gauge to in with a tee and see if I can get it to show something that way.
Think it might be related to small cracks between the two ports? They weren't bad but may have gotten worse in the last month.
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Only had a touch of time to devote to this problem today. Had an axle boot to reinstall, don't even know how that came off, and the Exhaust fix that needed welding. No hope on that today. I think every shop in town had the day off. Makes you wonder if you ever have trouble traveling over the holidays who is going to be open to fix it?
But on the engine problem. #3 cylinder set with lobes up and I was able to measure .013 mm on the intake and .040 on the exhaust. Right in the middle of the range on the exhaust but the intake was a bit tight as .020 is the middle for that one. So the clearances are good on #3.
Goofy thing was that the intake on #4 was 0.00 I could not get the .0015 in between the cam and the shim. And this is the cylinder with the best compression. 500 lbs, so I don't know what to make of that. Other than it might be limiting the amount of air into the cylinder. I still plan to slip the proper shim in there after the piston check.
I will need to run my compressor over to the buddies house in order to air up the cylinder with a gauge. I thought about the vacuum method but I don't have a way to suck the air out? Maybe the shop vac?
I will have to leave this beast alone for a couple of weeks as I need to return to Portland on Sunday and won't get back here until sometime the following week. Going to be moving out soon and stop all the silly long distance commute. But I still want the car to run as it should for the times I do need to get up there for business.
Any other Ideas, Or just tear the head and oil pan off and pull the piston and see what the heck is the problem? I was just hoping that it wouldn't come to that.
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Were the lifters checked fro cracks where they contact the valve stem? I'm not sure how or if it affects clearance or operation when they are caved in, but it does happen.
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AIUI, too little clearance will allow the valve to open earlier & close later... that could result in the pulses out of the intake. Just guessing, but maybe it gets a bigger gulp of air too - higher pressure might be the result.
I'd change out the shims before tearing the thing down.
I really can't see how bad rings are going to blow oil out the head, or even let oil into the cylinder.
I *have* heard of oil-drains in the head/block getting plugged and oil getting every-frickin-where.
Watch out for the engine spinning with the compressed air...
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If it ran before I would put the manifolds back on and run it. I don't quite understand your dilema I guess. These engines have a bit of back blow into the intake around idle, maybe it was just some of that? If you just went through it I wouldn't worry about it too much until something actually gets bad.
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TheMan53, This engine just got a new head and I successfully drove it down from Portland the night before and didn't notice any problems other than a slight lack of power on the hills. So I would downshift to third and just run it back up to 50 mph. When I would get to the top of the hill and go for the clutch and forth gear it would run on up in revs. The first time it did this I thought it was just the normal hang of the throttle but I haven't had that problem in a long time after I adjusted down. So on the next one I thought to let it go a bit more and it went into a run on situation. I figured I was burning oil at that point somehow and the intake and filter were black with it when I pulled it off.
So my trouble is mainly related to the push of oil into the air box. Maybe I just need the oil splash pan on top the cam to solve that problem. But getting my 200 lbs of pressure back in #3 cylinder is also necessary. Could it be that the HG is routing pressure into the oil system and not the coolant? Don't they generally pop a pretty big gap and get the coolant in some manner?
I did put it all back together and there is a haze that builds around the car from the problem. Incomplete burn of diesel or oil I am not sure they both have that bluish haze in the sun. Yes it did shine once and I noticed the color then. I am familiar with the blow into the intake at idle and this was way more than that. Like a factor of three or so. So I think things are already bad and sourcing the problem.
TylerD. I don't think the oil drains are plugged because I just had the head rebuilt and all were open and doing great for the last couple of months. Just recently, the last three weeks it has been snotty on start until it warmed up and then consumed or just pushed the oil out to the intake and filter. Had to throw two quarts in it one right after the other and that was not normal. I am thinking bad rings equals poor compression but that is only a guess. I didn't have my torque wrench with me to try the head bolts again. So that still needs to be tried before I go and pull the head completely. Safe and cheap thing to do.
Thanks for the suggestions. I was looking at rings and pistons just in case and there seems to be a big spread on prices for them. I think that question was presented here once already and there were some links for the answers. Can't remember if Gotez or Grants were recommended.
Later DAS
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Incomplete burn of diesel or oil I am not sure they both have that bluish haze in the sun. Yes it did shine once and I noticed the color then. I am familiar with the blow into the intake at idle and this was way more than that.
Only gray in mine,fix valve first I think.
What is "blow into the intake at idle"?
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Pull the vacuum pump and inspect the diaphragm.
I have little to absolutely no faith in your super high quality Harbor Freight comp. tester.
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Was the head pressure tested? I would guess something going on there.
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Dakotakid, ah come on, that cool red plastic box with all the nifty fittings in there. All in their separate lock down places. Actually for the price of about 40 bucks it isn't that bad. Schrader valves on all the adapters down low next to the injector level. The quick couple makes it go on and off easily and the adapter fits real nice next to the heat shield. The gauge itself is big enough that I don't need my glasses to read it and the pop off pressure release is nice to keep track of the reading as you write it down on the bench across the way.
I thought about the vacuum pump as it has gone out on me before. So I dug out the spare I picked up here last time I had to do the diaphragm replacement. I had oil in all those one way valves. My brakes are fine so I didn't think of it as a problem this time out. Never hurts to swap one out as it is easy as pumpkin pie to do it.
Still getting to the bottom of the low pressure reading in the 3rd cylinder is the real problem. I fixed up that HF bunch of adapters and have a way to remove the injector, put in an adapter that I can air up with and then will pull the GP and insert the gauge less the Shrader valve in the bottom. That should allow me to get the pressure up to 150 or so and then watch for bleed off.
TH53- NO to pressure testing head. Problem is recent and rebuild was months ago. Still could be an issue however. Thanks for the thought. I think something finally wore out to the failure limit and once the engine got cold things got to the bad part of town with slop in the system where I didn't have that on the drive down.
mtrans- blow into the intake at idle is that little bit of air that seems to puff out in front of the air inlet. It kind of feels like more of a vibration but if there is smoke in the air you can see that at idle some amount of air is actually coming out of the intake from one cylinder while going in to another. Once you rev it up the phenomena goes away. It might come from poor valve clearances, those that are to tight. Opening before they should.
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They all push out the intake until you rev them. I thought the way you said it was you put the head on and took it for a trip, not that you had it done a long time ago. I would guess at this point a blown HG, #3 pressurizing the oil.
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mtrans- blow into the intake at idle is that little bit of air that seems to puff out in front of the air inlet. It kind of feels like more of a vibration but if there is smoke in the air you can see that at idle some amount of air is actually coming out of the intake from one cylinder while going in to another. Once you rev it up the phenomena goes away. It might come from poor valve clearances, those that are to tight. Opening before they should.
Thx,I also see on idle(more than I stop to park),but I think it`s only me,some how I think it come from inlet of air filter.Best
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if you have 200psi in one hole, and its running away, i would be thinking that your rings might be broken..
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That is where I was at and may still be, I want to do the air in cylinder test and listen to where the air is coming out or moving to from the cylinder. Might just need head bolts retorqued but they were down and cleaned for close to 1700 miles until last weekend. I have been running it high in third on the steeper hills and the passing lanes. So I will get to those tests later next week.
Stuck in Portland this weekend. Starting to move back to CB.
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That is where I was at and may still be, I want to do the air in cylinder test and listen to where the air is coming out or moving to from the cylinder. Might just need head bolts retorqued but they were down and cleaned for close to 1700 miles until last weekend. I have been running it high in third on the steeper hills and the passing lanes. So I will get to those tests later next week.
Stuck in Portland this weekend. Starting to move back to CB.
CB as in Cannon Beach?
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Coos Bay.
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after a head gasket service, i start the engine with no manifolds, just to make sure that its worth it to finish putting it back together..
ive never had oil running out of my manifold bolt holes..
exhaust studs are way too low for that..
the intake holes MIGHT be high enough to be at oil level, but they should not be drilled thru the casting..
might i point out if you heat up esp exaust valves with out at least a down pipe when you shut off engine with out the ex valves esp will cool down Real quick and be detrimental.
and i dont mean a short down pipe, if you have a short one when it cools down so a cloth rag wont burn stuff a cloth rag in to prevent cold (at any temp) air from doing a number on your valves.
intakes will be affected too with an open manifold
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Lots of times with tired engines I can hear air moving past rings/valves when I crank it by hand.
I rarely have the intake or exhaust off so I can feel/see where the air is going.
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Well after two days of work I am more frustrated than I care to be.
I pulled the head after setting all the valve clearances to tolerance and putting one last twist on the head bolts for good measure. Double checked the PSI in the third cylinder and still only 200 lbs. Hence the head removed.
I checked and double checked the block and the head for that .004 tolerance with a straight edge and couldn't get it in anywhere.
So I tracked down some Permatex Hylomar and smeared it on both sides of the HG. I tightened up the head. put the oil and coolant hoses back on and set the timing.
Set up the compression gauge and WOW. A whopping 180 now. And to make matters worse the #4 also has less than 200 in it now. It was the strongest of the four at just over 500 when I started.
So I am bummed, tired and can't think so good right now. I also broke one of the glow plugs apart so I will have to replace that out of the spare parts bin.
Relying on you guys to throw some other ideas at me. This head has been on for all of 2 months and was doing well until this last trip home.
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pour some Kerosene in the ports, see if the valves hold it in?
lifter cup inspection.
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I did inspect all the seats as I had them ground when I rebuilt the head two months ago. But good idea, like I said, frustration overroad common practical thinking at about 3:45 PM yesterday. I did roll the engine as well to double check that I didn't have a bent rod for some odd reason. There were swirl holes starting on the top of the piston as the guy that did the work inverted the Intake and Exhaust clearances on that cylinder and I had 40 mm on the intake instead of 20 mm for a short time. It made a terrible sound when I first started it but found it right away and swapped in some other disks to make it right. What would we do without a spare car worth of parts in the shed?
I thought of picking up a new HG and a set of rings for it when I am in Portland this week.
Question on use of the Hylomar, does it only go on the metal to metal contact points around the cylinder or all over the gasket in a very thin layer? I used it overall and now am questioning the wisdom of that. Perhaps not such a great idea. There were no obvious blow through marks showing on the gasket. As I stated this problem just came up on my last 225 mile drive home and I caught it then. Mostly because the sucker wouldn't start well after that and smoked like a semi when it did run.
Later DAS
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I coat the entire gasket in hylomar, not just pieces. I would guess the HG isn't holding. New bolts and HG wouldn't hurt, but I would love to know why you don't have evidence of it being blown. Rings are not a bad idea either if the compression is down, but you don't loose 200lbs in your best cylinder all at once if it is rings.
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That was my thought exactly. I should SEE SOMETHING There! And I didn't. Didn't feel it either and wiped real gently with a cloth trying to find "evidence" for what went south on me. I am just going to replace the HG and see what comes of it. I have the 11 mm bolts and they are still in good working order.
This car was my weekly driver to and from the Portland area, 225 miles one way and at the first of the year I get to work local so getting it running suddenly became less of a crisis and more of a project car. I just lose the garage access at the first of the year as well so I need to get some satisfaction on the fix sooner than later.
Not sure if I can get the head pressure tested in town or not. Just getting the valve stems replaced was a great big hassle. Town is dying for such work. Used to be more shops around but lack of work has killed all but two I think.
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Update for those that care: I finally got the car to run well enough to come home today. But I don't like the repair results. This car is blowing blue smoke out the tail pipe like, well a 32 year old car. I was able to prove to myself that the block and head were flat enough to go back together with a new 3 hole head gasket. At first I had my doubts as I tried to clean a reuse the old gasket and the cylinder pressure was el sucko on two cylinders after that. But the new one got me back up into the 300 range so I continued to put it back together and try to start it.
In priming the injector lines with the nuts cracked at the injectors I noticed that once again I had oil coming out of the second and fifth holes of the intake manifold. So somehow these are connected to the oil system in some manner. Holes tapped too deep? There was a good 2 teaspoons of oil that came out of the holes when I unscrewed the bolts from the holes after finally getting it to run right. I felt like such a noob, digging around for the little piece of rod that goes into the back of the IP to time it up. It took me over an hour to do that simple check. I ended up having to run out and get another piece of rod, brazing rod actually, in order to do it. Somewhere in my tool box is that 6 inches of magic. But by purchasing a 36 inch rod I now have extras.
So I get it to run but there is a ton of smoke coming out of the beast. I think I will just have to bite the biscuit on this engine and pull the rings off the one piston and see what is up. I was hoping to not have to do that. Oh, well, it wouldn't be a VW now would it if it was fixed right off the bat and ran for 100,000 more without incident.
I will run a compression test on it again in the morning to see how bad things are.
It does run different with the 2.5 inch exhaust on it now. Different sound and response at the foot. I just want it to stop smoking. Terrible habit you know.
DAS
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Does it stop leaking oil when the bolts are installed?
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I wonder if the head could have a cracked oil passage?
Do you have the plastic oil deflector thing in the valve cover?
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B_Y_M I can screw in the bolts that normally hold the intake on and there is no flow. Not even under pressure of the engine with new oil cold. 90 psi at the head for a while anyway. Steady 40 at hot idle and coolant hot and flowing.
I did just screw in two bolts without the intake on to get the timing and such done. Intake goes on last for me. Crazy reach behind or now up from below as the header allows better sight of the bolts and I can get my arm in there if I break it in about three places. Tight with all the veg oil stuff there too.
745 I think it might be time to look into one of those splash guards as I do not have one and with the way this locomotive is puffing I know I will have plenty of oil in the intake shortly. I did make a check on the four holes in the bottom of the intake to verify they are open and draining. I am wondering now if they were loaded up with oil and I didn't notice it and that is why I have the Awful Haze of Blue following me around.
It is funny that the two screw holes on either end are the ones that allow oil to drain out of them if the bolts are used as plugs. The two holes either side of the intake manifold.
I didn't get to check compression today as it wouldn't stop raining and I didn't want to clutter my buds garage again as I cleaned it up nicely this morning when I went over for my truck and tools.
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Been following this thread. Was hoping by page 3 that you had discovered what the problem is. Keep us posted.
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As a quick update I put a new 3 hole gasket on it, put it all back together and am driving it around town. I still have poor compression in the #3 cyl. so I ordered a set of rings but haven't had the chance to put them in. I found two glow plugs to be bad on other cylinders and that leads me to conclude that was the reason it was so hard to start in the first place. Basically one cylinder working proper.
As for the oil pressure it is still high so I will be checking the pump when I do the rings. When cold I can get 130 at the head until it warms up then drops to 90 then 70 after more long driving.
Anything else?
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someone has drilled the holes too deep in the head..
none of the bolt/stud holes on the back of the head should actually let oil out..
ive ran my engines with NO MANIFOLDS, quite a few times, and on quite a few different diesels, and they never leaked from the intake bolt holes..
that is the head that you got from another user on the forum, right?
if it were me, i would smear a good dose of teflon pipe dope on the threads of the bolt, install the intake manifold, and torque it to spec..
the teflon pipe dope will seal the bolts to the head, and it will act as anti-seize as well..
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Trying to think here, did I get that head from a forum member? Yes, he has moved out of the diesel motors now that he sold it all to me in a couple of transactions. So it could be that the intake bolts were altered and I just didn't know it until I did as you do and ran it without the manifolds. Funny that only two leaked. I have since put the engine back together and do not have issues with the bolts leaking. But will consider the dope deal when I finally get around to the rings I need to do. Where can a guy buy a warm weekend to do the work?
thanks for the tip. DAS
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will consider the dope deal
Do it ;D
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will consider the dope deal
Do it ;D
my dope tends to be a little pricey, sometimes ;D
lol, for cereal tho, pipe thread sealer works wonders on bolts that thread into oil passages, bolts that thread into water jackets..
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Interesting that you say this works well. I thought it would too so I used it on my WVO system and I found that it melts with the warmed veg oil. I have had to remove the fittings on just about every part of the system. The coolant lines into the FPHE's not so much of a problem but I thought the dope was not going to hold up there either.
Went to Teflon tape and haven't had as bad of a leakage/seepage issue. Perhaps the cooking oil has other magic melting properties I just don't know about. But like you say it works on other applications just fine.
You guys are terrible about twisting something someone says. You know that don't you! PIPE Dope, not Dope pipe.
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I have a can of E-something dope with a green label that works well, it's rated for gas, diesel, oil, and ethanol....
Derpderpderp....EDIT;
Gasolia E-seal
Excellent resistance to gasoline, ethanol blended gasoline such as E10 and E85, petroleum solvents, kerosene diesel oil, BioDiesel propane, butane, LPG, cutting oils, ammonia, aliphatic solvents, acids and steam.
NOT for use on oxygen.
Temperature Range: -100ºF to 600ºF (-74ºC to 318ºC).
Pressure Range: Up to 10,000 psi when sealing liquids and up to 3,000 psi with gases.
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Gasoila is great stuff. I sell all there products. The hard set is funny, to get pipe undone with their hard set it usually ends up you cut or break the pipes. The soft seal I think works well for this type of automotive application. The E seal IIRC was developed for the Ethanol so it is good for about anything except food processes.
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Perhaps I can find it local, but likely not. We are at the edge of the world here and only UPS and FedEx deliver the real goods.
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Don't you guys use hydraulics for tree massacre or something?
hose/ag/tractor shop
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It is called harvesting, utilization or rotation management. Call it massacre and I will have to wonder what type of house you live in. Oh, steel and concrete, that is what we call mining. Other forms of harvesting, extraction or utilization. thanks for the tip I will hit the local hydraulics place, they might have it.
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My place is from the '40s, so it's made from quake proof oldgrowth, sealed with lead paint ;D
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Interesting that you say this works well. I thought it would too so I used it on my WVO system and I found that it melts with the warmed veg oil. I have had to remove the fittings on just about every part of the system. The coolant lines into the FPHE's not so much of a problem but I thought the dope was not going to hold up there either.
Went to Teflon tape and haven't had as bad of a leakage/seepage issue. Perhaps the cooking oil has other magic melting properties I just don't know about. But like you say it works on other applications just fine.
You guys are terrible about twisting something someone says. You know that don't you! PIPE Dope, not Dope pipe.
good to know that pipe dope and veg oil dont play nicely..
thats quite weird, because ive used this stuff in contact with engine oil plenty of times, and it stays intact..
hahaha, gotta love the forum being able to twist things, and giggle about it..