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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Ceepo88 on November 19, 2012, 04:05:12 pm
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Main points:
HAVE NOT CHECKED TIMING AND COMPRESSION YET, WAITING FOR TOOLS, ALSO ORDERED A BENTLEY MANUAL.
Car is getting fuel
Glow plugs work
Battery good
Grounds are good
Battery cables brand new
New Starter
Car starts and runs good with a pull/rolling start
Car wont start using starter or cranking over under its own
Okay where to start...
A little background story/info on the car. I just bought this 1884 Volkswagen Jetta Coupe, 1.6L N/A Diesel, 5 speed, 137k original miles about 2 weeks ago, car would start and drive but had cold start issue(would crank and crank hot or cold and would take about 10-30 seconds to start, even if i cycled glow plugs, or had it plugged in, and cold start handle pulled out). Previous owner replaced injection pump(supposedly/supposedly rebuilt), new head gasket, new glow plugs, and said he rebuilt injectors along with new plug in block heater. Also previous owner added a small 1-5 psi fuel pump to pull fuel from tank and help feed the injection pump.
Okay so about a week ago I parked the car and went to start it and it just cranked and cranked no starting to the point the battery died. Seemed like it wanted to start but wouldn't (whiting/grey smoke out exhaust pipe). Charged battery and tried again nothing, hooked the car up to my 02 Dodge Ram 2500 Diesel and still would crank slow and not start(stater died). Using the cold start handle in side the car doesn't help either.
1.) I checked the fuel lines as I read I could be losing fuel injection pump prime. Replaced the fuel line going from the filter hosing to the injection pump and the injection pump return line, started car and bled lines. Previous lines on the car were to big for the barbed fitting and he had a hard plastic hose to fill in the space between barbed fitting and new hose(kinda ghetto and looked like it would leak air). Also checked fuel solenoid voltage and its getting 11.89 Volts and clicks when I run a jumper from batter positive to it.
2.) Replaced starter because the one on the car took a crap on me. When i replaced the started I also went ahead and cleaned the grounds for the motor/battery negative on the transmission and frame of the car as I remember reading a members quote of Volkswagen owners club forums said "What do Divorces, Great Coffee and Cars all have in common? They start with good grounds." - briano1234. Also replaced the battery cables with new ones just for peace of mind. Car cranks awesome now, really fast where before on the old starter it wouldn't engage or would have a loud whining noise coming from starter. Also tested batter and it is rated at 650cca and was putting out 580 and passed the test at auto part store.
3.) I pulled number 4 glow plug and checked to see if it got glowing red/orange hot in 7 seconds with some jumper cables hooked up to it and they worked. also check to make sure they are cycling by testing voltage going to them when key is first on and they are in fact getting voltage with key on. Previous owner must bus fuse on the firewall and just bolted the wires together(got a new fuse ordered).
4.) Last thing that really confuses me about all of this. When I tow the car behind my dads pickup with me in the car and I put it in 3rd/4th gear and let the clutch out while rolling(15mph or so) it will start and run awesome! Plenty of power, does shoot black soot clouds out when floored or under a load(seems odd to me for a Volkswagen diesel to do this). Drove the car about 10-15 miles after pull/rolling starting and it didn't die, bog, or run bad. In fact it seemed to run awesome, and have no issues of over heating, no fuel problems(other then soot clouds under a load). My next test is to barrow a injection pump timing gauge and Volkswagen timing set and compression tester and see whats going on their, previous owner used the redneck back woods way of setting injection pump timing. I have a feeling it could be the injection pump timing is off and that's why it had the cold start issue along with now it wont start when using the starter. But why in the heck would it start and run awesome when pulled behind my dads truck?
Sorry for the long post and any help or ideas to try and track this problem down are greatly appreciated.
Pictures of the car:
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/534022_10151315488856565_2089376801_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/602654_10151316228871565_2074831247_n.jpg)
For future searchers this is posted on three separate forums linked below:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5888405-1984-Jetta-1.6-N-A-Diesel-Problem.&p=79763556#post79763556
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32432.0
http://volkswagenownersclub.com/vw/showthread.php/31023-1984-Jetta-1.6-N-A-Diesel-Problem.
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You need clear lines, in and out, to see if any air is in the lines (If you don't have them already). Air will keep the IP from reaching proper internal pressure.
Many folks use a bottle of clean fuel and clear lines to/from the IP to rule-out (or verify) upstream fuel supply restrictions.
White smoke often indicates the need for timing advance, which can help significantly. That is the effect of CS lever, add ~5degrees advance, but proper advance for running is pre-requisite.
Best to do the compression check (replace or re-form the injector heat shields afterwards), then set timing on cam and IP. More tuning tips, once the basics are covered.
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Okay I will get the clear lines as well as get the timing and compression figured out before we go any further. Just waiting for the tools to get here before I can go any further ha ha ha.
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You should replace the bushing for the starter and also do a voltage drop test for peace of mind. New means nothing these days.
Likely it is a timing issue though.
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I replied on another forum with this:
I had the exact same problem, and after changing about as much as you have I was horrified to find out that it was a $12 electrical switch inside the ignition. The contacts were worn and I assume the only reason it eventually started was because the paper thin copper contacts warmed enough to expand and start. If you want an easy test that I didn`t know about - have someone hold a test light on the stop solenoid while cranking, if the light goes out you`ll know immediately whats up. I eventually made this realization when using a hand/thumb starter directly attached to the starter with the key on. Car would start instantly every time.
The light will be on with the key on, but not with the key turned all the way to start/crank position.
Here is a pic of the part which requires disassembly of the clamshell, remove steering wheel and eventually the metal part that wraps the steering column, there is a screw hidden inside:
(http://www.theautochannel.com/autoparts/images/products/engineparts/n494985221plh.qkt)
BTW, this seems like a miracle problem but it actually happened again on my second car.
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I wonder if there would be much smoke if the cutoff were closed...
But I will concur that those switches go bad. I replaced two on my first rabbit (gasser).
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I'll give those a try and see what happens, never hurts to eliminate a possible culprit. Thanks for that ideas guys. Getting the timing tools tomorrow.
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When does the lift pump run? Can you run it a few minutes, and look for a drip of fuel behind the pump drive pulley? That one can keep you from priming even when fuel is readily available.
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Just finished resetting the injection pump timing, my dial gauge displayed .25 at top dead center, and I adjusted it to .95. Got car back together cranked and cranked and cranked and nothing, car seemed like it wanted to start more, gonna try and re-bleed the lines again and see what happens. Next is compression test but I didn't have the right size wrench or socket to remove injectors so that will have to wait.
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i vote for an air leak/losing prime at the pump..
thats the only time i see crank times that long..
unless all of my glow plugs go tits up..
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Just went and pull started it, fired right up. Shut it off and tried to start it up again after it got warm and nothing, just cranks over and over and over and over sputters a little bit but nothing... makes no sense to me...
Video of car running after pull start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2TKORcqoeY&feature=youtu.be
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Is it still smoking when you are cranking it over?
What were the voltage drop test results?
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Not shtiitng you, clear lines are a must.
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/6132/airfrompump.jpg)
Tygon or polyurethane. Vinyl kinda sucks, but it can work with good clamps.
A couple other tips:
Bottle feed the sucker (send and return) to see if the IP can even pull fuel from a short distance.
It the IP can't draw from a bottle, the vanes in the lift section may be stuck. Filling the IP with ATF or Diesel-Purge for a day or two may help free-up the vanes.
If the IP can run with lines to/from a bottle (with no air bubbles), there is likely an air leak or restriction in the lines from the tank. There may still be a "water separator" by the right rear wheel - bypass it (most folks totally remove it), as it is prone to admit air or leak fuel and leave you stranded.
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I'm gonna get a video of cranking it in the morning with some light, ill keep testing things. I refuse to take this to a mechanic lol...
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I'm gonna get a video of cranking it in the morning with some light, ill keep testing things. I refuse to take this to a mechanic lol...
Did you end up testing the stop solenoid?
I have a leaky pump that is sucking air when running but not leaking when off - and my crank times are zero. I do get the smoke, etc as a result of the air going into the injectors. And with the bad switch I did get the smoke as well, not really sure how but it happened.
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I did test the stop solenoid and it stays open with the key in the cranking or on position. I'm really lost as to what the problem is with this car, I did put clear fuel line on and it has some air in the return line (was just some residual air from changing the lines out) and no air in the feed line. When I changed the fuel lines I took a 5 gallon container of diesel fuel and ran the line from the injection pump to the tank(so only 2 leak points) and cranked the car over, the pump sucked fuel quiet well from the container and sputtered like it wanted to start but still no luck. Its gotta be a fuel or compression issue but why would it run with a rolling start and not cranking under its own. Even when I try starting fluid it doesn't start. Also when the car is warmed up from rolling start and then I turn it off and try again it wont start...
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Few photos of the motor, their is a little air in the return line but that is from replacing fuel line to clean lines. Did the pull/rolling start and it fired up after a second and drove it about 10 miles, plenty of power, does throw tons of black smoke out the tail pipe when you mash the gas(more than I feel is necessary or normal).
These photos are of the car sitting for 1 night after I replaced the fuel lines to clear feed/return lines, p.s. previous owner put red dye diesel in it(lived in small rural city) and that's why the lines appear to have a pinkish hue to them.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8199/8228272030_dfb19a8f6a_b.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8479/8228269978_7e1082ba68_b.jpg)
Starter:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8198/8227323509_fbc922c5c9_b.jpg)
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I just got done talking to my Mechanic friend and he said it seems like it is in fact a fuel issue and seems like it is getting to much fuel upon start up messing with piston rings/compression and not allowing the motor to build compression using the starter; but pull starting it the motor is spinning faster than the starter can turn it over and clears the fuel out of the chamber and allows it to fire up. Also the excessive smoke(black sooty, unburnt diesel fuel) it has when driving(4th gear, 50ish mph it will blow black smoke from behind the car for days) makes him feel it is this issue also. Gonna try turning the fuel screw down and see if it helps at all.
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the pump sucked fuel quiet well from the container and sputtered like it wanted to start but still no luck. Its gotta be a fuel or compression issue but why would it run with a rolling start and not cranking under its own.
Have you checked your glow plugs? You have pretty much ruled out fueling, by the pump being full, and it sputtering like it wants to start.
Even when I try starting fluid it doesn't start.
Well after reading this... :o You most certainly want to check the glow plugs. They are probably missing their tips. Ether is a HUGE NO-NO on high compression glow-plug pre heated diesels my friend. Never use it again. It will cause more harm than good.
I just got done talking to my Mechanic friend and he said it seems like it is in fact a fuel issue and seems like it is getting to much fuel upon start up messing with piston rings/compression and not allowing the motor to build compression using the starter. It will blow black smoke from behind the car for days, makes him feel it is this issue also.
Oh boy, seems like your mechanic friend is a gasoline engine guy. More specifically a carburetor guy lol.
If it were a fueling issue, it is most certainly NOT an over fueling issue.
Gonna try turning the fuel screw down and see if it helps at all.
How does it run once you have got it running? If it idles good, and revs up without issue.. then turning the fuel screw anywhere will not help. Especially not down, as it will decrease fueling.
Now what I have said here might come off as rude, or too harsh. But, there is a lot you need to learn before attempting anymore work on this engine. Clearly you are going at this thing completely blind, with a mechanic who doesn't know what he is doing either. And that is a recipe for disaster. These are extremely simple engine and fuel injection systems. You are over complicating the hell out of it and it is stumping you because of it.
Typical hot start issues and lack of starter being able to roll the engine over to catch are directly related to Low Compression.
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Good pix!
Dark sooty smoke is actually burnt fuel... too much fuel-to-air or "overfueling" - similar to the soot from acetylene when you cut the O2 on a torch .
Unburnt fuel is whitish or light grey, usually from insufficient pump timing advance.
An engine with bad compression can take forever to start (if at all) - much faster starting by push or pull.
A bad starter or bad starter-bushing can crank too slowly to fire the engine; if the engine is cranking fast >150rpm but not starting, low compression is likely (all other things being sufficient).
(While glow plugs are not the root of the problem (IMO), I'd check them if ether has been used... it kills em.
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What were the voltage drop test results?
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Well, if it were mine, I would carefully measure the valve clearances right about now.
Or, perhaps two weeks ago.
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I'm gonna perform a compression test today and will post the results later this evening after I finish it. I know it seems I'm going at it blind, I have rebuilt a few motors in my day(all gas and all Nissan sr20det engines). I will do a voltage drop test as well, my gut tells me it's going to be a compression issue honestly.
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Ether hammers rings like being on a blacksmith's anvil in these engines.
Then, it literally blows the precombustion chamber into the bore and you have an immediately destroyed engine.
Don't do it again even on a "worn" engine. Once (already done) is all it takes.
And, yes, I learned this knowledge the hard way years ago.
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I'm gonna perform a compression test today and will post the results later this evening after I finish it. I know it seems I'm going at it blind, I have rebuilt a few motors in my day(all gas and all Nissan sr20det engines). I will do a voltage drop test as well, my gut tells me it's going to be a compression issue honestly.
Compression is always good to start with.. They are compression ignition so they need it.
I am not questioning your engine rebuilding knowledge, all of that would transfer to this engine as well. You are un-educated on vw diesels, dont take that as anything but what it says. Do some reading, if you know engines then with knowledge this will be a cake walk.
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Sorry didn't mean to come across as a jerk or ass or like I was offended ha ha ha.
Did a compression test finally after buying a few tools to do it and got low numbers, could only do 3 of the 4 cylinders as the injection pump was in the way of the number 1 injector and I didn't wanna mess with the timing right now.
Dry compression test showed #2: 90 psi, #3: 200 psi, #4: 128psi
Wet compression test showed #2: 200 psi, #3: 405 psi, #4: 260 psi
Wetx2 compression test showed #2: 160 psi, #3: 300 psi, #4: 200 psi
(compression test was done using a Bentley Manual for instruction.)
My gut from day one told me it was compression just didn't have the right tools to perform the test until now.
Now the question 1. SHOULD I REBUILD IT (If so where should I order parts and what parts should I steer clear of, i.e. hans diesel or what not) or 2. FIND ANOTHER MOTOR? (Any good sources for good used motors?)
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Getting the tools, the parts and time will all likely be less than trying to obtain a well maintained engine that is any better than what you already have. I say rebuild it.
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Better the devil you know, best the devil you built.
Might just need rings... can't lose much by taking the top off and looking inside.
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Kind of what I was thinking. If there isn't a lot of wear in there then rings might do it. that would be about 150 bucks and go.
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I'm gonna yank the head off tomorrow or the next days, I will get some pictures of things after that. If I do in fact rebuild this thing do you guys recommend the rebuild kit at parts place inc. or should I piece together my own kit and parts?
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Not parts place. See other thread for options. http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32482.0
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If you need the assistance of buying a "prepared" kit, you might well be better off buying a kit from Jack in Ohio....the owner of what so many of these fellows (me, too) non-affectionately call "the hillbilly forum" (Jack in Ohio).
He could also perform a rebuild (not cheap) on your head if it is still salvageable. He has a good reputation but he don't work for Salvation Army wages.
Reliable parts suppliers have been discussed and rediscussed here many times. It is more economical to go the independent route.
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I appreciate you guys pointing me in the right direction.
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Not a problem it is what we get paid to do.
All of those 2 cents worth add up in time.