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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Bugsy_malone 666 on November 17, 2012, 05:10:16 pm
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Ok so I have a 1.6TD motor from CL golf, which when I got it was upto around 150k miles on it, I then fitted it to my 72 vw camper where its been for 4 years now (only covered a few thousand miles) as it was intended that I would run the engine on veg oil.
so for the first 2 years it was fine then the glow plugs all went at once one day leaving my van stranded at my g/fs house where the next day we got it started with a blow torch to the intake to help out.
Last year it was used for a few miles and didnt have any real issues, this year its been generally sat for about 6 months where I have been refitting the interior and a second fuel tank for veg oil, but in the last week I have finally started using it as my daily on veg oil.
My set up is that I have 2 fuel tanks, one has diesel (the stock one) and a secondary for veg oil, with a heat exchanger to heat the veg oil before it goes to the pump and then an electronic change over valve to swap between fuels once the gauge shows the engine has warmed up.
During the 6 months the vans been stood I have started and run it a few times, its never been amazing at starting because I dont have the cold start advance thing connected (at the moment anyway) but I do have the glow plugs all hooked up working as they should, so as I have been using it this week the thing has really been smoking/running poor on start up and I am not sure why as temperatures have been about 8c here so I wouldnt have thought the cold start advance would have made much difference as it hasnt been a problem in the past.
So I turn the ignition on, glow plugs come on for about 8-10seconds then I start spinning it over but like a gas engine tend to find I need a bit of throttle to get it going, it then starts and runs pretty lumpy with a fair amount of blue haze initially, which in the past has cleared pretty quickly, but this week its been taking a bit longer to run smooth. I would then start driving the 36 miles to work and after 3 miles the vans warm enough to switch over to waste veg oil, which it remains running on for all but the last mile of the journey where I switch back to diesel to purge the system.
Over the period of the week I have noticed its starting and warm up getting a bit worse even when one day I did run it half way home on diesel because veg oil was running low. The veg oil filters( I have a dual filter head setup for the veg oil) were new when I filled the 10 gallon tank up and the diesel filter was new about 500 miles ago and only sees diesel not veg oil.
I wondered why the engine was becoming smokey and harder starting considering its supposed to be fine to run them on waste veg oil thats been filtered(like mine is all filtered before it gets to the tank). I wondered if the harder starting might just be because the glow plugs have gone within 2 years?
Additionally I have been running a small percentage of 2 stroke oils in my fuel too, after alot of reading on the internet it appears that by mixing diesel fuel 200:1 with 2 stroke oil can help the fuel system by lubricating the mechanical bits that arent seeing as much sulpher lubricants as when the engines were new, I figured on an engine with 150k it cant hurt especially in the veg oil as veg oil doesnt have lubrication properties compared to diesel!
Tonight the engine was running like a right heap when it started up, the only way I could decribe it this time was as if it had a bit of an air in the fuel or something as it was smokey and running on 2, took 30 seconds of holding it at a few thousand revs to clear things up a bit, but it would still occasionally miss.
I'm hoping this is something I have just overlooked/age of the engine as opposed to running it on the waste veg oil as its a free fuel for me (talk about hippy van eh!)
Anybody got any suggestions?
Also are 1.6D injectors the same as 1.6TD injectors rating wise? I have a 1.6D sitting about that needs a rebuild but the injectors were good and I think the engine is lower milage than the TD as I thought it might be worn injectors.
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Ok so I have a 1.6TD motor from CL golf, which when I got it was upto around 150k miles on it, I then fitted it to my 72 vw camper where its been for 4 years now (only covered a few thousand miles) as it was intended that I would run the engine on veg oil.
so for the first 2 years it was fine then the glow plugs all went at once one day leaving my van stranded at my g/fs house where the next day we got it started with a blow torch to the intake to help out.
Last year it was used for a few miles and didnt have any real issues, this year its been generally sat for about 6 months where I have been refitting the interior and a second fuel tank for veg oil, but in the last week I have finally started using it as my daily on veg oil.
My set up is that I have 2 fuel tanks, one has diesel (the stock one) and a secondary for veg oil, with a heat exchanger to heat the veg oil before it goes to the pump and then an electronic change over valve to swap between fuels once the gauge shows the engine has warmed up.
During the 6 months the vans been stood I have started and run it a few times, its never been amazing at starting because I dont have the cold start advance thing connected (at the moment anyway) but I do have the glow plugs all hooked up working as they should, so as I have been using it this week the thing has really been smoking/running poor on start up and I am not sure why as temperatures have been about 8c here so I wouldnt have thought the cold start advance would have made much difference as it hasnt been a problem in the past.
So I turn the ignition on, glow plugs come on for about 8-10seconds then I start spinning it over but like a gas engine tend to find I need a bit of throttle to get it going, it then starts and runs pretty lumpy with a fair amount of blue haze initially, which in the past has cleared pretty quickly, but this week its been taking a bit longer to run smooth. I would then start driving the 36 miles to work and after 3 miles the vans warm enough to switch over to waste veg oil, which it remains running on for all but the last mile of the journey where I switch back to diesel to purge the system.
Over the period of the week I have noticed its starting and warm up getting a bit worse even when one day I did run it half way home on diesel because veg oil was running low. The veg oil filters( I have a dual filter head setup for the veg oil) were new when I filled the 10 gallon tank up and the diesel filter was new about 500 miles ago and only sees diesel not veg oil.
I'm thinking you're not completely getting the veg oil out of the system before shut down, and are allowing a lot of raw oil to mix into the diesel.
I wondered why the engine was becoming smokey and harder starting considering its supposed to be fine to run them on waste veg oil thats been filtered(like mine is all filtered before it gets to the tank). I wondered if the harder starting might just be because the glow plugs have gone within 2 years?
It should still have a filter, because the tank itself can be a source of contamination and water.
Also, if your glow plugs went out all at once, in one day, which is highly unusual, I would suspect that there could be an electrical problem which is causing them to fail.
Additionally I have been running a small percentage of 2 stroke oils in my fuel too, after alot of reading on the internet it appears that by mixing diesel fuel 200:1 with 2 stroke oil can help the fuel system by lubricating the mechanical bits that arent seeing as much sulpher lubricants as when the engines were new, I figured on an engine with 150k it cant hurt especially in the veg oil as veg oil doesnt have lubrication properties compared to diesel!
I think it's the other way round, that oil is an excellent lubricant, diesel is not. If anything, the oil needs something to "cut" it, to make it ignite easier in cold weather, such as gasoline or an additive, which increases the volatility and decreases the tendency for it to turn into grease.
Tonight the engine was running like a right heap when it started up, the only way I could decribe it this time was as if it had a bit of an air in the fuel or something as it was smokey and running on 2, took 30 seconds of holding it at a few thousand revs to clear things up a bit, but it would still occasionally miss.
Are you sure you don't actually have air getting into the fuel lines? It sure sounds like it.
Also are 1.6D injectors the same as 1.6TD injectors rating wise? I have a 1.6D sitting about that needs a rebuild but the injectors were good and I think the engine is lower milage than the TD as I thought it might be worn injectors.
No, the TD injectors have a higher break-open pressure, to compensate for the the turbo adding extra air (and therefore, more pressure when it ignites) to the cylinders.
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It sounds like you might have air in the fuel, possibly a slow leak back to the tank once you shut down. Or your timing is a bit on the retarded side.
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Ok so I have a 1.6TD motor from CL golf, which when I got it was upto around 150k miles on it, I then fitted it to my 72 vw camper where its been for 4 years now (only covered a few thousand miles) as it was intended that I would run the engine on veg oil.
so for the first 2 years it was fine then the glow plugs all went at once one day leaving my van stranded at my g/fs house where the next day we got it started with a blow torch to the intake to help out.
Last year it was used for a few miles and didnt have any real issues, this year its been generally sat for about 6 months where I have been refitting the interior and a second fuel tank for veg oil, but in the last week I have finally started using it as my daily on veg oil.
My set up is that I have 2 fuel tanks, one has diesel (the stock one) and a secondary for veg oil, with a heat exchanger to heat the veg oil before it goes to the pump and then an electronic change over valve to swap between fuels once the gauge shows the engine has warmed up.
During the 6 months the vans been stood I have started and run it a few times, its never been amazing at starting because I dont have the cold start advance thing connected (at the moment anyway) but I do have the glow plugs all hooked up working as they should, so as I have been using it this week the thing has really been smoking/running poor on start up and I am not sure why as temperatures have been about 8c here so I wouldnt have thought the cold start advance would have made much difference as it hasnt been a problem in the past.
So I turn the ignition on, glow plugs come on for about 8-10seconds then I start spinning it over but like a gas engine tend to find I need a bit of throttle to get it going, it then starts and runs pretty lumpy with a fair amount of blue haze initially, which in the past has cleared pretty quickly, but this week its been taking a bit longer to run smooth. I would then start driving the 36 miles to work and after 3 miles the vans warm enough to switch over to waste veg oil, which it remains running on for all but the last mile of the journey where I switch back to diesel to purge the system.
Over the period of the week I have noticed its starting and warm up getting a bit worse even when one day I did run it half way home on diesel because veg oil was running low. The veg oil filters( I have a dual filter head setup for the veg oil) were new when I filled the 10 gallon tank up and the diesel filter was new about 500 miles ago and only sees diesel not veg oil.
I'm thinking you're not completely getting the veg oil out of the system before shut down, and are allowing a lot of raw oil to mix into the diesel.
I wondered why the engine was becoming smokey and harder starting considering its supposed to be fine to run them on waste veg oil thats been filtered(like mine is all filtered before it gets to the tank). I wondered if the harder starting might just be because the glow plugs have gone within 2 years?
It should still have a filter, because the tank itself can be a source of contamination and water.
Also, if your glow plugs went out all at once, in one day, which is highly unusual, I would suspect that there could be an electrical problem which is causing them to fail.
Additionally I have been running a small percentage of 2 stroke oils in my fuel too, after alot of reading on the internet it appears that by mixing diesel fuel 200:1 with 2 stroke oil can help the fuel system by lubricating the mechanical bits that arent seeing as much sulpher lubricants as when the engines were new, I figured on an engine with 150k it cant hurt especially in the veg oil as veg oil doesnt have lubrication properties compared to diesel!
I think it's the other way round, that oil is an excellent lubricant, diesel is not. If anything, the oil needs something to "cut" it, to make it ignite easier in cold weather, such as gasoline or an additive, which increases the volatility and decreases the tendency for it to turn into grease.
Tonight the engine was running like a right heap when it started up, the only way I could decribe it this time was as if it had a bit of an air in the fuel or something as it was smokey and running on 2, took 30 seconds of holding it at a few thousand revs to clear things up a bit, but it would still occasionally miss.
Are you sure you don't actually have air getting into the fuel lines? It sure sounds like it.
Also are 1.6D injectors the same as 1.6TD injectors rating wise? I have a 1.6D sitting about that needs a rebuild but the injectors were good and I think the engine is lower milage than the TD as I thought it might be worn injectors.
No, the TD injectors have a higher break-open pressure, to compensate for the the turbo adding extra air (and therefore, more pressure when it ignites) to the cylinders.
Normally a mile/2 should be plenty to get the oil out and the diesel in, I still had the problem on thursday when I had been driving for 15 miles on diesel before shutting off so I dont think its that.
I think you may have misunderstood about the oil filtering( I may have not bee clear enough). I get veg oil straight out of works fryer, its actually pretty clean compared to takeaway outlets as there is little water in it, I then leave it in a clear barrel to sit for several weeks to let anything separate. I never seem to have any water in it which is good, the fatty deposits sink to the bottom and I pour out the good oil into another barrel with a tap on. I then have a series of 5x 25litre buckets, each one has a different grade filter: 100/50/25/5/1 Micron(diesel filters are 5micron apparently).The oil goes through all of that before it goes into the veg oil tank on my bus. From the Veg oil tank it goes through the heat exchanger, then a double tractor style diesel filter which has a glass bowl at the bottom of 1 of the 2 filters to view in case of water. So in theory it is about as clean as possible in my opinion.
The glow plugs themselves went about 2 years ago, all at once and your right there could have been an electrical problem. I cant remember if I investigated the warm start cut off, which is on the back of the head and cuts power to the plugs if the engine is warm enough. But I get this feeling that I connected it at around that time, at least I think I did when I changed the plugs or it was already connected(I know it works at the moment). I cant think of any other reason why the plugs fail for electrical reasons as there is just a glow plug relay and thats it!(one which is under 4 years old I might add!)
I was just looking on the internet about veg oil and your right, turns out they actually use it as a lubricant! Think I had in mind heating oil which is a 'dry' fuel. I figured because of the organic nature of veg oil it might not have the right lubricating properties, I certainly dont think having 2 stroke oil in it will harm as the 2 stroke oil has additives to make burn cleaner and less smokey (clearly not the case here at the moment). People online had reported that the engines were cleaner than normal on strip down through using 2 stroke oil. To stop the oil turning into something thick/burn better I use heat, lastnight I actually connected up my tank heater (this was something to improve warm up times for oil and cold weather reliabilty) in addition to the fuel heat exchanger I already have in place. With the veg oil it needs to be warmed to 90c to become thinner like diesel and to aid combustion, lets face it getting it hot is how chip fat fires happen! I may investigate what sort of cetane boosters are available for the veg oil though, ideally I dont want to be buying too much extra fuel else it defeats the point of having it.
I am going to have a look at the fuel lines today and make sure everything is properly tight just incase as you say the air is leaking in somewhere, it shouldnt be but after 500 miles this week things will have settled and small gaps may have appeared enough to cause me a problem!
The retarded ignition thing sounds possible as there is a fuel advance lever for cold starting in really cold weather to make it start better, but its a real bugger to get to in my bus to connect up (I am in the process of trying) aside from which I cant see that the fuel pump timing has ever changed (you can normally tell if something has been fiddled with by the dirt/marks).
I am going to do some further investigation today!
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Are you did HPT test for your oil-because there is two kind of water in veg fuel,and you must check EVERY GP,or if you have 0-50 amp-meter?
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Bugsy, I run WVO in my Rabbit and I have a gauge attached to the top of the IP to be able to watch the pressure as I drive. I can tell right away when I get air into the system as it drops the pressure by something like 30 lbs. I am always chasing an air leak as the diesel is a rattle box even when properly isolated on good engine mounts.
IF I had those symptoms I would be looking for air, glow plugs that worked well, and purge a little longer. It doesn't hurt to dump some diesel into the WVO system with a purge but keeping WVO in the pump when trying to start is not good. Double check that timing. WVO doesn't have the kick Diesel does so you might bump it up and deal with the marble sound on start-up and shutdown as just the way it will be.
The only Cetane booster I would be throwing into the WVO at this time of year, cold here now, is something oil based. Otherwise I use Paraffin wax in the summer. But honestly the fuel is thick enough as is even when warmed to 90C. You should have all the advance you are going to need. But tapping the regulator screw a tad might not hurt either. But you really need to know more specifics when playing that game. Hence the IP pressure gauge on top of mine.
Good luck on this, seems like most of us on WVO or WMO have this common blight. Always fixing the alternative fueling system.
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Bugsy, I run WVO in my Rabbit and I have a gauge attached to the top of the IP to be able to watch the pressure as I drive. I can tell right away when I get air into the system as it drops the pressure by something like 30 lbs. I am always chasing an air leak as the diesel is a rattle box even when properly isolated on good engine mounts.
IF I had those symptoms I would be looking for air, glow plugs that worked well, and purge a little longer. It doesn't hurt to dump some diesel into the WVO system with a purge but keeping WVO in the pump when trying to start is not good. Double check that timing. WVO doesn't have the kick Diesel does so you might bump it up and deal with the marble sound on start-up and shutdown as just the way it will be.
The only Cetane booster I would be throwing into the WVO at this time of year, cold here now, is something oil based. Otherwise I use Paraffin wax in the summer. But honestly the fuel is thick enough as is even when warmed to 90C. You should have all the advance you are going to need. But tapping the regulator screw a tad might not hurt either. But you really need to know more specifics when playing that game. Hence the IP pressure gauge on top of mine.
Good luck on this, seems like most of us on WVO or WMO have this common blight. Always fixing the alternative fueling system.
Bit of food for thought there, I could tell the other day I was having issues with a fresh batch of veg oil I put in because on hills it lacked power. Flick the switch to diesel and instantly you'd notice the difference so it was struggling to suck the oil through, which is why I was connecting my tank heater up this weekend as I figured it was struggling to draw the fuel through because it was too thick.
I had a bit of a look round the engine bay today but to be honest everything seemed tight fuel line wise except one thing, on top of the IP there is a fuel return from the injectors to the pump/tank, the pipe that comes off and goes to the tank you could twist, so I have done the fuel pipe clip up on that one some more so it no longer twists(while it was running to make sure no air got back in).
Came hours later, still a bugger to start. Tomorrow I am going to get some new glow plugs, as a matter of course really.
Going to see what additives the local car factors I use have for the engine as I think it needs some help, surprised the tappets dont rattle for 150k unlike my mk3 golf petrol that has a bit of a rattly one at just 120k so I dont think it needs any oil additive but I might look into fuel additives (already put a shot of fuel system cleaner in).
With additing something to thin the oil down I do have to be a bit careful because of fuel tax reasons, certain things like paraffin you dont pay tax on and if I got stopped and my tanks dipped I'd get charged! but adding petroleum would be allowed for instance because the fuel tax has already been paid (although I am wary of putting petroleum in diesel based fuel!)
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Don't just look at things, grab, pull and feel all the hoses. I just had some air leaking into my pump on start up, and everything looked fine and the hoses were relatively new. But, one of the hose clamps had backed off due to vibration and the hose on the fuel filter was loose.
I think you may also be confused by the American use of the word "paraffin." Here it's what candles are made of and what people use to seal a jar of homemade preserves. In Britain I think it means something else.
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well paraffin wax is exactly that, its a was which is part of paraffin, or kerosene as its known in the USA. I was trying to accertain the actual difference on wikipedia but I cant really find much other than the fact its a solid form of paraffin.
I have been working my way round the engine checking to see whats loose, aside from a return line which was new and slightly loose I could only find one other 'issue' which was the return line from the injectors to the pump seems a little knackered (anyone know what size it is, I think its 3mm?).
Yesterday I replaced the glow plugs, which I might say is a right arseache to do because I needed to take the injector pipes off in the end to get to them and it was just getting to the limits of my hands fitting. Annoyingly there was nothing wrong with any of the heater plugs visablity, minor carbon deposits as I'd expect.
I noted that around the injector pipe number 1 where it meeds the injector had a minor amount of diesel on the injector making it look 'damp' before I took the pipes off, so I wonder if it was leaking very slightly causing an issue? Although judging by how bad it started /ran before it warmed up on sat/sun/mon I think it was more than that, with it taking around 5 minutes to run properly on sunday! It wasnt all that cold either at 8-10c.
I really dont want to start on the whole injector pump rebuild thing at the minute, or replacing the injectors as its not cheap to do. I am in the process of doing the cold start 'choke' hooking that up at the minute as I figured if the timing it our, by hooking this up is an easy way to see how much the timing affects the running, if it doesnt I know I have serious problems!
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If you have a vacuum gauge you can put that in line with the WVO to see if you are building a vacuum when running WVO. I have had a couple batches of bad oil plug my filters and I started sucking air in when I hit somewhere around 8 lbs of vac.
In order to get that cold start lever working I am going to say you will need to pull the pump off the engine. If you had issues with clearance for the GP's you won;t get between that little bit of space for the adjustment of the lever. That 8 mm nut is a bugger to get threaded on the end of the shaft unless you are really nimble. I have done it but what a pain. Even tried not taking it off all the way and barely could get the lever to jump to the next spline in the shaft.
You might try mineral oil instead of wax in the cold weather.
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What sort of fuel return are you using? looped? electronic? mechanical?
Is it clear? does it ave bubbles?
As the weather gets cooler, hoses(maybe seals too) will shrink, and leak where they didn't before.
I touch every fitting, and at least try to tighten every clamp.
In 20,000+
miles burning WVO, I never added anything but diesel fuel additive, about the same as In my regular tank.
Personally, I think I had more problems from the diesel side being old than the veg side.
If you can drain your fry vats through a shortening filter, it removes almost all the larger solids, and takes an extra 30 seconds.
Is there any possibility the heat exchanger is leaking coolant into your fuel?
Do you run any kind of lift pump? I saw one of those develop a leak which aerated the fuel.
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Ok well fuel lines on the vehicle are all black rubber (as I bought 10m of unleaded petrolium grade, which is better than the diesel/oil stuff) I have 6mm lines throughout, which have been my suspiscion as to a lack in some power as the weather gets colder, however I came to the conclusion this isnt a big engine and the factory points on the injector pump are only 5-6mm!
For the diesel tank the return simply goes to the top of my fuel tank and the diesel is sucked out the bottom, I use a vanagon/t25/early golf fuel filter that is completely disposable with just 2 pipe connections. The veg oil setup is a 10 gallon landrover fuel tank in the van, I welded a bung in the top for the fuel return and used the factory pickup(top mounted also). both fuel lines travel together(cabled tied) to the engine bay and now also one of the heater lines runs through the tank and then it goes back to the engine bay with the fuel lines, in order to keep everything warm and reliable(and easier to suck through!). When the fuel lines get to the engine, the return pipe goes straight to the 6 port changeover valve, The supply line goes through an inline primer bulb, enters the head exchanger at 6mm and leaves at 8mm fuel line, the 8mm fuel line then goes to a filter head that has dual fuel filters(the type you find on tractors!), the first of which has a glass bowl at the bottom to view for water (can see any in it) with drains, it then goes into the 6 port valve. Hope that makes sense.
My dual filter head is actually 4 port so I have considered having a return back to the first filter to keep the fuel warmer/reduce the amount needing to be sucked through from the tank, this would mean however that the diesel wouldnt get mixed with the veg oil over time which is kind of useful.
Aside from the veg oil the main probelms I have been having is just on normal diesel being bad starting and smokey on start up, I am keen to solve that first then work on the oil.
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Replace part of the return with clear line or a sight glass of some sort.
Is the 6 port new? they can have problems. one of which is sending veg into your diesel tank when you switch, but you should be more than fully purged in a mile... I run a looped return, and 2 miles got me plenty clean enough. I have a manual ball valve to open/close the return loop, and another for the purge/return line.
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The 6 port valve was a new when I fitted it to the van, is a 'pollak' valve, which is quite popular on veg oil conversions althought I have known them to have a few problems.
On the purge side of things a mile should be plenty, I have felt the rate at which the oil returns to the tank and the lines from the valve to the IP are only about 12-14" so I dont think its a problem have a 1 mile purge as diesel should be there fairly quickly.
I think the biggest point being the fact that after a 15 mile run on diesel only (plenty of purge) it was runnign fine when I turned it off but the next morning it started like a bag of bolts.
This weekend while I have the injector lines off Iam going to set my DTi gauge up on it and check the pump timing (if I can find my workshop manual with the specs in) just incase the vibration over time has moved with for any reason!
Aside from that if it still doesnt work I'll have to strip clean and rebuild my spare pump (just with new seals) tune with the governer mod and start from scratch.
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Ok I have been fiddling with the thing today to try and get it running again, as last week I took the injector pipes off to do the glow plugs and then it started raining so I had to give up.
So it now has new glow plugs and these are fine, they are not the problem with running.
I managed to rig up the cold start today, it pulls the lever on but doesnt push it off yet (needs a spring!) and I though this is going to take a bit to start as the fuel lines are dry and it needs bleeding etc. with the cold start on I spun it over a few times and checked the injector lines were tight, then spun over a few times more, it sputtered a little but then with a bit of black smoke roared into life and ran perfectly!
When I say perfect I mean as you would expect the engine to run normally, so after 30 seconds or so I was fiddling with the cold start to try and make it go off, went to the engine bay and manually operated the cold start off and the engine then ran like a bag of nails for 20 seconds before sputtering to a stop with white smoke.
So I pulled the Cold start on again then it started pretty much straight away with clear running. went and fiddled in the engine bay and as soon as you start pushing the cold start off it would start to splutter, I turned it off and reved it up and at revs its fine, but it wont idle without smoke and running like a bag of bolts, so I pulled the cold start back on and left it running for about 5 mins while I finished packing up my tools. after 5 mins I'd expect the engine to be warm enough to run without the cold start, I turned it off and it ran crap! put my foot down hard on the accelerated and it ran fine at higher revs but didnt really idle well even though it was running cleaning.
At this stage I am wondering if something is up with the fuel pump?
I cant see how the timing could have become out considering its been previously fine and tight. it certainly leads me to believe its a fuel pump/timing problem though.
I did actually try checking the timing with a Dial indicator, however its impossible to get the dial indicator into the injector pump, I dont have TDC markings on my crank pulley, although the fuel pump pulley seems to have some on it and the case that line up so you can also slide the locking tool into the pulley hole (or a modified bolt in my case) but in my can it seems to be impossible to get to, which is one problem with home made conversions I think! Theres just so many wires and pipes and stuff in the way.
So what are your thoughts?
If I do have to get the fuel pump out and change it then I will drop the engine, but meanwhile any other thoughts?
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It sounds like you might benefit from a minor advance in timing.
In cooler weather, most of my vehicles run rough for a few minutes unless the CS is pulled. At idle, it can take longer to reach a temp where the engine will run smooth without the CS pulled.
I would mark the IP and bracket, then advance the timing a hair.
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Me too, Just mark a line across the top of the IP and the bracket and bump it towards the engine a tad. Then retighten and start with CS out then push in and see if it stays smooth. Sounds like your CS is doing the adjustment for the amount of timing you need to have just to run it well. Only need a pencil width of push to seperate the two marks.
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would the difference in timing have an impact on fuel economy by much?
Although I have been running this on veg oil, I have noticed the fuel economy was crap by any standard. It was around 27mpg on veg oil, reports show that while veg oil mpg is a bit less but I know my van previously has done 35-45mpg on average so its alot less!
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I never noticed any significant difference in power or economy. The SVO has a bit less energy, but it's thicker, so the timing works better.
In ~10 years since i got my first Caddy, I've never had a working cold start on any VAG diesel, but it seldom freezes here.
For ****s and giggles, inspect and clean your out bolt. It's easy, and if there is a debris or goo problem, you may well see it.
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Ja, my understanding is that significant improvement in fuel economy can result from timing optimization. Certainly, while the motor is stumbling, that ain't helping... but for some folks, getting the timing advanced to the point of clatter on initial pedal seems to be helpful.
My Westy is geared where high rpm are common, which is (AIUI) where injector lag is also common; so a bit of advance has helped maintain ~23mpg running D2. (A pretty fresh build too.)
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Bugsy and you others,
When I run the WVO in the Rabbit I have noticed power and mileage differences. But not that bad. My understanding is that you may see a 10% drop in mileage with the WVO compared to what you had going before. That is 3.5 to 4.5 for what you had before. 27? Nope notta right my friend.
Now the pressure thing is a mixed blessing of sorts. Sure it is thicker and thus advances the timing sooner and I think that might make up for part of the loss of power available from that fuel type. But the injection of the slightly thicker fuel, granted it does sit on top the hot injectors before getting delivered but do we get the full boatload of charge we need? I can't say, but what sort of performance to people get from going to what is called a veg oil nozzle? Can't say there either just posing the question.
Would the timing have that much effect on mileage you ask. I see big differences in the car I drive with just 10 mm of change in the pump timing. Getting the power screw and idle thrown into the equation and you can really change how the car runs and drives. IF you want belching black smoke out the back to keep Hondas and such off your tail you probably aren't worried about 50 mpg. Drive it like Gramps and maybe you will just have to let the rice burners rap past with those silly sounding exhausts.
In addition to cleaning the out bolt you might have some success by tapping the regulator in a bit to get a few more pounds at idle. That will carry all across the RPM band and might get you to full advance at 55 MPH. Have you pulled any of the shims out from either side of the spring on the other side of the cold start? That will get you advance as well.
That is all for now. DAS
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Now the pressure thing is a mixed blessing of sorts. Sure it is thicker and thus advances the timing sooner and I think that might make up for part of the loss of power available from that fuel type. But the injection of the slightly thicker fuel, granted it does sit on top the hot injectors before getting delivered but do we get the full boatload of charge we need? I can't say, but what sort of performance to people get from going to what is called a veg oil nozzle? Can't say there either just posing the question.
My feeling is that if you can't get the same power on veg, something is wrong with your system. Fuel not being almost at the same temp as the injectors going in would be one of those things.
filter restriction and air suckage seem to be most common though.
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^^^ Ain't VO supposed to be about 160F ahead of the IP?
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Yes Tyler it is supposed to be 160 going into the IP but what is the temp coming out and sitting in the lines and finally delivered to the cylinder. I use a digital temp gauge on the fuel going into the pump and maybe I should swap it's location to being on the lines to the injectors instead. I am sure there is a temp drop going on there.
AFAIK the 160 temp is for viscosity purposes. To be more like diesel inside the pump, and to burn without using some of itself to get there.
745 you got the air suckage and filter restriction properties right. I heat the fuel prior to filtration because it wouldn't do very well pulling thick fuel into the filter. Our diesel filters are better at doing their job under vacuum than with pressure pushing the fuel through them I believe.
I use one of those oil coolers in reverse on the filter and then from there pass it to a FPHE to get it as hot as I can a foot from the IP. Most times I am worried I will get it too hot, which isn't good either.
If one has temperature loss that is excessive I suppose you could electrically heat the lines as there is a product for doing that. With the low amp alternator I have I decided to double up on the coolant heaters instead. Drop a 90 or 120 amp alternator on there and I wouldn't fret about it.
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Heated tank, more heated fuel line...filter hurts to touch, and injectors run 160 at idle regardless of fuel according to my IR pyrometer.
No unusual deposits any time my engine has been apart.
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when you guys say 'out bolt' do you mean the bolt for the banjo fitting for the return line on the IP? just ordering a new 3mm return line from the injectors. then at the weekend I'll look at adjusting the IP timing by a few mm and see if its better.
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Yes, that bolt is marked on its top "OUT", because it has a screen inside and a small orifice that maintains IP internal pressure. It is calibrated with the pressure regulator at the front of the IP.
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Ok had chance to muck about with the vans engine today and check over a few suggestions.
Firstly I replaced the knackered injector return to fuel pump line, while doing so I took the 'outbolt' off and had a look, clean as a whistle inside the bolt! and I saw the screen etc.
Next up I move the fuel pump timing marginally, bit of an arse to do on my van but I managed to twist the pump by a degree maybe (which is what I guess a pencils width to be) It wouldnt really move much anyway because of the injector pipes and stuff, but importantly it was only moved a tiny bit as suggested.
So temperature in the shade is currently about 6c, feels warmer in the sun like 8-9c not bitterly cold. With the cold start pulled out, turned on the ignition and waited for the glow plug light to go out, span the engine over which after a few spins fired put out a little puff of black smoke, threw the starter out but didnt start. So cycled the ignition a second time and it fired right up let it run for a few moments then started easing the cold start in and it ran fine on idle till the last 10mm of travel (the cable has about 50-60mm of travel to pull the cold start all the way out) at which point it started to stumble and smoke a little.
So I picked the revs up from idle to maybe 1200rpm and it was just blue smoke city worse than at idle and it would miss (which I find odd for a diesel), pick the revs up further to say about 1800rpm and it runs fine on 4cyl but there was a constant slight haze coming from the exhaust although I couldnt tell if it was blue or grey(probably blue) but it was running 'fine' at high revs. Then I let it idle again, at which point I put the CS right off and it idled fine just a little smokey, but if you picked the revs up to between 1000-1200rpm you'd get the issue with it missing a little, beyond that it would run alright back on 4 constant.
By this point the engine had a tiny bit of warmth in it and was running ok without the CS on, but still wasnt running very clean or as good as I think it could/should be.
I did at one stage turn the engine off, go round the back of the van and check the engine over and then go and start it up again and it started fine, without even pulling the CS out.
I have also found at revs I'd hold the revs at say 2000 and it would then start to pick up further on its own by maybe another 500rpm, I dont know if thats as a result of turbo pressure or what, but then if I let off just a fraction the revs would drop back to 2000ish and then start to die down to more like 1500rpm, maybe this is normal?
I'd say things are marginally better but something is still not right, and until it runs right stationary I dont want to take it out driving!
The thing that still concerns me is the blue haze it has. it makes me think something isnt burning properly, either because the injectors need reconditioning, the pumps not putting out the right pressure or not enough fuel maybe?
Thanks for all your help, I am open to more suggestions!
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I still rekon there is a bit of air getting into the IP, if there is a stumble. I haven't seen an engine stumble that wasn't due to air in the IP.
If you didn't purge the IP of air before the startup, there may have been some remaining from opening the lines.
But, it seems almost normal... all my rigs have a bit of haze in the exhaust until they are fully up to temp.
If you haven't already, loosen the hardlines at the IP and retighten to relieve the torque from moving the IP. That stress can cause lines to crack.
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Yeah tomorrow I might give that a go if I get chance and try maybe moving the IP a smidge more. Once it was warm it was much better than it had been, I still think it needs a bit more tuning and I certainly need to get the right spring to help return my cold start as that could prove invaluable with the freezing temps due next week.
Tomorrow If i have enough time I'll also do a check around the engine bays fuel lines and double check every thing is spot on.
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right didnt get chance to muck about with the IP today, but gave it a go at starting. Pulled the CS on turned on the ignition and let the glow plug light go out then it spun over about 6 times before firing and knocking the start out, so turned the ignition and tried again this time with my foot on the throttle a little it started up, bit of smoke initially for about 10 seconds it then cleared and ran about as clean as its likely too.
With the Cold start on I reved it up and left it running a while to warm up, runs perfect doesnt stumble at any rpm or anything. Knocked the CS off and it started to run like a bag of bolts again, smokey running generally rough. Once the engines warmed up its 'ok' but it runs far better with the CS out than in and I dont recall it always being like this and I cant see how anything could have 'moved'
I also dont think its an air leak in any of the lines, otherwise I'd experience rubbish running with the CS on or off.
could there be an issue with the fuel pump?
could it be that the injectors need rebuilding?
Will I do the engine any damage running with the CS on all the time?
The less I need to do the better as it all costs money and its coming up to christmas!
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Ok time to get this thread back up and running now I had a bit of time to work on the van.
So basically the whole thing was running like a heap of crap, I altered the timing a fraction (barely a pencils width) and it was not really any better, pulled the cold start on and it was a bit better but still rubbish.
So I sat down had a think about causes and couldnt really pin it on anything, but thought maybe I could check the injectors as a starter for 10. I have a spare NA which I pulled from my bus years ago when it broke down (we think the cause may have either been the starter motor not spinning fast enough, the filter head with built in primer or power to the fuel cut off solenoid). I had it running from a can of red diesel since and it was fine so I think it may have been something minor. Anyway I pulled the injectors out of it last night, and the NA ones were cleanish, I pulled the ones from the TD, alot more carbon build up, I think the NA ones were recon at some point because they had been put in with copper grease on the threads!
Swapped the injectors over and started it up, I seem to have made the problem worse!
Now the engine is hunting and smoking, wont idle. Mechanically very noisy.
So I came to a few possible conclusions, maybe sticking/siezed hydraulic tappet? I figured if the valves wernt closing/operating properly may cause it to be noisy and crap, it improves at higher RPM but not masses. Fuel pump issues - either a problem with the pump itself or my dad suggested maybe the belt jumped a tooth.
I am wondering how likely is it that it could have jumped a tooth on the cam belt?
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A full IP-tooth is quite a bit. The IP pulley has 44teeth: 360o/44=8.18o (cam), which equals 16.36o crank.
The CS advances the IP 5o (crank). If it runs smooth with the CS pulled, it is easy enough to advance the IP 5 degrees (+.008" plunger travel) and checking the results.
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Just FYI because I don't see it mentioned anywhere here...
Next up I move the fuel pump timing marginally, bit of an arse to do on my van but I managed to twist the pump by a degree maybe (which is what I guess a pencils width to be) It wouldnt really move much anyway because of the injector pipes and stuff, but importantly it was only moved a tiny bit as suggested.
Here's a big fat WARNING!!
I would highly recommend going to your vehicle and loosening all your metal injection lines a bit to relieve any tension that you put on them from adjusting your pump timing, then tightening them back up. They do NOT survive long if you adjust your timing without taking the tension out of the injector lines. They are fairly brittle so any twist or other tension put on them plus the harmonics of the engine leads to cracks, in particular on Injector #2. You just need to undo all 4 at the pump end and then do them up again, though doing both ends isn't a bad idea. They WILL crack otherwise, ask me how I know... And they are expensive to replace, plus somewhat hard to find.
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^ it sucks, but he's right.
Ok time to get this thread back up and running now I had a bit of time to work on the van.
So basically the whole thing was running like a heap of crap,
Can you narrow that down a little?high/low RPM, will/will not rev, misses a cyl sometimes, one cyl allways, half the cyls most of the time....etc
[/quote]
I altered the timing a fraction (barely a pencils width) and it was not really any better, pulled the cold start on and it was a bit better but still rubbish.
Unless the advance is failed, CS only affects timing to a little above idle, so if its making a diff at 2000 RPM, you have a huge clue
So I sat down had a think about causes and couldnt really pin it on anything, but thought maybe I could check the injectors as a starter for 10. I have a spare NA which I pulled from my bus years ago when it broke down (we think the cause may have either been the starter motor not spinning fast enough, the filter head with built in primer or power to the fuel cut off solenoid). I had it running from a can of red diesel since and it was fine so I think it may have been something minor. Anyway I pulled the injectors out of it last night, and the NA ones were cleanish, I pulled the ones from the TD, alot more carbon build up, I think the NA ones were recon at some point because they had been put in with copper grease on the threads!
Were the symptoms the same?
I may not have read back far enough, but do you have clear fuel lines, and tried running on a separate fuel supply?
I am wondering how likely is it that it could have jumped a tooth on the cam belt?
How loose is the belt?
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The injectors that you installed most recently probably dried up from sitting for so long. I have had luck running the engine on ATf and then letting it sit for a few hours and then switching back to a diesel jug. Has free'd up injectors for me three times in the past.
A pencil width, while it is a lot of actual timing difference, is probably not enough to go from horrible to perfect. I would start by advancing it more until A. it runs the way you want it too or B. It becomes extremely clackity. If B. occurs before A. you have a problem still ;).
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Ok lets cover some ground here. The injector pipes have been on an off a fair amount so they are not under any undue stress other than they would normally be under.
The cam belt is tight as it kind of describes in the book where you shouldnt be able to quite turn it 90 degrees when you have it between your fingers.
The injectors I put in still had diesel in them and I am not convinced the period of time they have been sat since it was last run about 2 years ago is enough to cause that much a problem. I may be wrong but in my experience of most vehicles.
My dads been looking online a little and thinks it is a fuel related problem and he may be right but its finding the problems cause, his view is possible fuel starvation somewhere. He was the one who also thinks that it may have slipped a tooth on the belt, but he was just hazarding a guess - I fitted the belt 5000 miles ago and its as tight as its ever been so not convinced its that.
I have a few thoughts of potential problems:
hydraulic valve lifters, you dont normally get them on vanagon engines apparently as the turbo engines only came with solid lifters. Now I can see this may be related to the 50degree angle the engine sits at in the vanagon. I did wonder if potentially an engine with 150k+ on it may have slightly worn lifters which dont like being at more of an angle and have seized up or something.
fuel system, I run wvo and diesel, separate tanks and separate filters running through a 6 port pollak valve to do the change over between fuels. I am sure I have read somewhere about pollak valves failing, mines 12 months old but has only seen 500 miles use (5 days!) so I cant see it should have failed that quick. So basically my plan next is to take the supply pipe off the fuel pump, use the hand primer from the tank and make sure diesel flows through easily. I'm also going to plumb the diesel pipe straight into the pump to double make sure I am getting diesel only and eliminate air leaks from the valve.
ok and maybe to help diagnosis, heres a bad video taken at night with my phone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNRjRKFVKSc&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNRjRKFVKSc&feature=youtu.be)
now on that video you can hear a tiny bit of belt squeal, its the multigroove alternator belt which needs a little adjustment again (sometimes squeals a little when its cold/bit of surface rust on the water pump pulley)
In that video I dont have the CS pulled out, I am holding it on the throttle to keep it 'idling' but near the end I let off which is where is struggled and eventually stalled.
It sounds more knocky than diesel clatter which worries me.
Some amusing extras here from previous points in time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQaKPUysXNw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQaKPUysXNw) - during 2010 when I fitted a vw aircooled stinger to the exhaust flange for a giggle!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vODN_mFqvL8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vODN_mFqvL8) - first test drive, not a blistering V8 but picks up pretty well for a small engine in a bay window van!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbXS8a7s1Ow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbXS8a7s1Ow) - when the engine was first installed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSmNcwD0bdU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSmNcwD0bdU) - I think a bit later on same day. - funny the belt still squeaked then!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zHmbXieaqk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zHmbXieaqk) - This was further back when I had the NA engine in there which is what I used injectors from, you can hear the old vanagon start struggling, it eventually gave up and I adapted a mk3 golf one when I went TD!
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Oh something else, injector seals, can you reuse those funny washer things? I havent taken them out as I didnt realise there were seals in there, I literally swapped injectors.
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Advance it, see what happens. Easiest first. Well even if they had fuel in them, diesel does go bad and gel up.
With these it is always a fuel related problem, so tell the old-man he's right.. but there wasn't much else it could be ;) lol.
You can reuse them if you reform them, but not unless you do that. If you didn't the injectors gotta come back out.
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You can reuse them if you reform them, but not unless you do that. If you didn't the injectors gotta come back out.
I was afraid you were going to say that!
unfortunately due to it being dark, mid week and me not knowing I just popped the other injectors in, number 2 is a right arse to get to, I have an injector socket but not a wobble drive extension.
I'm going to phone vw tomorrow and a motor factors I use to see if anyone has any seals on the shelf.
Then theres the joy of fishing them out.
Do you think this may have also related in the way its running/hunting? it wasnt running massively better before I changed the injectors, but at least it would idle with the CS on but I still say what worries me is the amount of mechanical noise.
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A retrieval magnet usually pulls the shields out easily. They are easily reformed with a ball bearing, socket and c-clamp (large vice-grips ("mole grips" over there) can conveniently squish the same amount each time.)
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If they are stuck for some reason and a magnet won't pull 'em out you can use something that hooks on to them - I often use an old bicycle spoke but a large wood screw will work quite well too. SOME folks crank the engine over and let air pressure pop 'em out, but you never know where they're going to go if you do that.
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If they are stuck for some reason and a magnet won't pull 'em out you can use something that hooks on to them - I often use an old bicycle spoke but a large wood screw will work quite well too. SOME folks crank the engine over and let air pressure pop 'em out, but you never know where they're going to go if you do that.
Funnily the bicycle spoke idea was on my agenda after I stripped a wheel a while back and still have a load of spokes knocking about :)
Need to ring round today and try to find out if anyones got any instock, I dont think reforming them will be on my list of options to be honest.
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Some of the Mercedes engines use the same part if that helps expand your search.
For example:
http://www.mercedessource.com/node/3419
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Well I just been down vw £17 later I have 4 of the right washers. Seems most motor factors cant get hold of them and I cant find them on ebay either.
VW can easily get them if I need more. for now I'll stick with these 4 and hopefully leave it at that!
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ok I got the injectors out again today and also got a wobble drive extension to get injector 2 out, its so much easier with one of those.
However found something of slight concern, so heres some pictures:
Spot the problem:
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/bugsymalone666/DSC06909_zps77ca4476.jpg)
injector hole one:
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/bugsymalone666/DSC06910_zps2dac7466.jpg)
injector hole two:
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/bugsymalone666/DSC06911_zpsce9e61b4.jpg)
injector hole 3:
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/bugsymalone666/DSC06912_zps3dd5d90c.jpg)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/bugsymalone666/DSC06913_zpsaa7590d4.jpg)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/bugsymalone666/DSC06914_zps4ef245a9.jpg)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/bugsymalone666/DSC06916_zpsc99d8ff3.jpg)
injector hole 4:
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/bugsymalone666/DSC06915_zps12748880.jpg)
now the oil on that injector 3 is fairly thick, not like its leaking from anywhere like it being diesel mixed with oil on the engine, but maybe maybe from inside the cylinder/head, it is mechanically noisy as mentioned on the video posting, so I am wondering whats up or if it might be a ring gone?
Ideas on a postcard!
Ideally I dont want to have to take the engine out and strip it down as realistically it means putting the petrol engine back into the van so I can at least use the van again.
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Update 497. Right I got fed up cleaned everything the best I could and installed the injectors with new washers, started it up and it ran like a heap of crap.
It wasnt hunting as much as previously, but still smokey. Spoke to my dad and he said well it is probably most likely timing, so I thought bugger it I'll go an alter the timing a little more and see if that makes any difference. Marked it and then twisted it towards the engine by about 2mm (the distance between my marks) and it showed an improvement.
It was still smoking and not great on idle, but pulling the CS out this time resulted in it running far better, and at higher revs it was running cleanish too, which it hadnt been before.
So anyway I checked what I could, rev'd it up lots and generally polluted the air with a blueish smoke. So my dad then finally appears to have a look/listen and couldnt really fault it as such as generally it wasnt missing etc, but at higher RPMs the engine was becoming mechanically noisy.
After mucking about with it for so long it had actually warmed the engine up a fair amount, to the point where it was actually starting to run ok, idle was a little lumpy but no worse than that the day it was put in the van and generally through the rev range it was fine, even on veg oil!
But still at high RPM it was mechnically noisy like it was the tappets making noise.
So generally we came to the conclusion the next step is to get one of those oil additives for hydraulic tappets and see if it improves and possibly adjust the timing some more!
The engine still doesnt have a whole lot of diesel knock/clatter on idle though and I have only heard about 1 diesel vw van that had real diesel clatter.
Essentially the thing is kind of running again! But still unsolved as to the problem, I suspect it will be like a bag of bolts again when cold.
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So generally we came to the conclusion the next step is to get one of those oil additives for hydraulic tappets and see if it improves and possibly adjust the timing some more!
Sounds like a good plan.
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if you are running waste oil, who knows whats going on inside your pump.
i have seen the inside of 2 pumps i ran with wvo and an atf soak wasn't enough to get rid of the buildup inside. which i don't even think you want passing through your injection system.
i have seen old injectors not play nice with a pump as far as smoke patterns/noise and timing by ear.
if it were me i would make sure my injectors are rebuilt to spec, and i break down my pump completely to reseal and clean and then start off with clear lines from pump going into a jug of diesel.
my first bad experience with a wvo mix/batch was when i quit using the stuff. thought all was well for a while until one day i could not start either my vw or truck. pumps got so caked, and im lucky parts didn't break in the pumps when trying to get them started. i caught it quick and was able to change filters and soak a couple days in atf to get started again, but i broke the pumps down later.
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Well I used the van for 500 miles on WVO which I filtered myself, no water or anything and pretty good stuff as where it comes from at where I work it doesnt get hammered like real restaurants. I equally dont run a single tank, I run 2 tanks, one with diesel one with WVO once the engine is up to temperature, the WVO has twin filters with water trap.
I get the impression that if you run WVO for 10k miles you might start having problems but for a week of use I dont expect to be having the issues of what I am.
Basically the bad starting actually began before even using the veg oil, it just seems it has gotten a bit worse and I have been using it.
I run fuel additives in the veg oil and diesel for injection system cleaning and also I run a small amount of 2 stroke oil to aid lubrication, which I have been doing after a fair amount of research.
I need to do the oil treatment to see if the tappets quieten down, because what I am finding is once the engine is warmed up it runs perfect and almost cleaner than it ever has! its just poor starting/crap running when its cold. Also it has mechanically gotten noisier the engine itself.
But the strange part is that there is not alot of diesel clatter which makes me think a little more timing adjustment maybe required.
Still I will carry on trouble shooting.
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a little more timing adjustment maybe required.
Still I will carry on trouble shooting.
I told you so. If the CS smooths the idle then ot needs probably just as much bump again as you have done already. Also this should bring the diesel clatter up ;).
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Agree on the timing.
Those hyd tappets crap out pretty regular, it isn't just a VW thing. I always replace them if the cam is coming out
and I don't know they have under 50K. They are cheap. I've also never been able to hear a bad one on a VW-D, but I came to the
conclusion years ago when looking for missing power/mpg and testing them on the bench. Experience with gassers
using very similar designs reinforced the lesson. But they aren't a dramatic problem unless one is totally stuck closed...
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Do you know if petrol/diesel hydraulic tappets are the same?
I know I have a spare petrol head if I can work out which tappets have gone noisy (am thinking on cylinder 3 as that was the oily one) and thought I could swap some over for the time being. Although as you say, if the cams out its probably easier to replace the whole lot while your there.
First up though I have some wynnes hydraulic valve lifter treatment to add to the oil. I have used this on my mk3 petrol golf before which had a rattly tappet from cold thats now quiet!
Compared to keep twisting the pump more and more, how much difference does 1 tooth on the cambelt make? I am thinking that although the pump has some adjustment it could end up 4-5degrees by the time I have finished adjusting it, which may fall in line with the idea that its a tooth out? maybe.
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Pretty sure a tooth out on the cam would put pistons in contact with valves.
There is very tight clearances, the piston literally chases the valve back up in to the head each stroke.
Just out of curiosity, what oil and filter are you using?????? I have a 90 gas engine that I run on 15w40 diesel oil because 5w or 10w will make the valves extremely noisy until warmup..
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Pretty sure a tooth out on the cam would put pistons in contact with valves.
OP is wondering if the IP pulley is off a tooth.
One tooth off = 16 degrees crank, (.6mm plunger stroke).
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whoops, read cambelt as camshaft.. My apologies.
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gas/diesel lifter same for hyd, and $7 a pop new
https://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=oftinl3pzun4albzcszdps55&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1282823@JETTA%20TDI&year=1986&cid=lifter@lifter&gid=5548@Hydraulic%20Lifter (https://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=oftinl3pzun4albzcszdps55&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1282823@JETTA%20TDI&year=1986&cid=lifter@lifter&gid=5548@Hydraulic%20Lifter)
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Pretty sure a tooth out on the cam would put pistons in contact with valves.
There is very tight clearances, the piston literally chases the valve back up in to the head each stroke.
Just out of curiosity, what oil and filter are you using?????? I have a 90 gas engine that I run on 15w40 diesel oil because 5w or 10w will make the valves extremely noisy until warmup..
A vanagon Diesel one. Its specific to the van I think and bigger than normal Gas engines, but importantly it is designed for a 1.6D/TD although those engines normally have solid lifters. at the same time I think its got some sort of run back valve in side because of the angle at which the engine sits.
Cleary the pump cant be 16 deg out because thats a hell of alot!
I have found a set of lifters on ebay for £31 which doesnt seem too bad, but I am reluctant to go straight for that as I'm going to try the oil stuff first.
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Ok so while it was a whopping 3.5c and snowing I thought well I will give it a go at warming the engine up and putting in my hydraulic tappet additive in to see if it made a difference.
So I ran it for about 5-10 minutes at which point the temperature gauge was warming up and I could feel the heating working, so I added the tappet additive and started this video to show how it runs in the day light. Also you can see the engine setup with black diesel filter, veg oil heater below it, twin veg oil filter, pollak 6 port fuel change over etc. Unfortunately the sound on my samsung galaxy S3 is not that great but hopefully you can hear enough to make your own analysis.
So this is warm(not hot, that would have taken a fair drive on a day like today!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJFeVfpNFTE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJFeVfpNFTE)
So I then ran it for about another 5 mins by which time it was warm and running fine it seems. Still a little bit rattly on higher revs mind, but not sure how long till this hydraulic lifter additive will take effect.
Anyway I left it to cool down again for 3 hours and went back to it and it basically ran the same as the previous video I filmed at night where it was lumpy and rattly.
rubbish!
I am tempted to take it for a bit of a spin up the road tomorrow to see if it runs and has any power and what its like, the worst it can do is blow up really.
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Forgive me, I know I've read bits of this thread but I can't recall all the finer details.
What injector-related troubleshooting have you done so far? The random marbles I hear sound like a bad or leaky injector to me. That would also cause smoke, rough idle... Basically all the symptoms you have. Just quickly scanning, I see you have had them out but have they been serviced at all?
I also hear a possible bad bearing on a waterpump/alternator but that's unrelated to the smoke / rougher running. If I had to pick one I would guess alternator.
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From the sounds of it on the vid I think you have something sticking in there. Intermittent misses and the smoke. Run it for a bit now that you have the additive in there and see what transpires.
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As you said.. it can only go pop. ;)
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Forgive me, I know I've read bits of this thread but I can't recall all the finer details.
What injector-related troubleshooting have you done so far? The random marbles I hear sound like a bad or leaky injector to me. That would also cause smoke, rough idle... Basically all the symptoms you have. Just quickly scanning, I see you have had them out but have they been serviced at all?
I also hear a possible bad bearing on a waterpump/alternator but that's unrelated to the smoke / rougher running. If I had to pick one I would guess alternator.
Ok so it was running like this with its original injectors(155k miles on the engine and assumed original injectors), I have then changed the injectors for some lower milage ones from another good condition N/A engine I have knocking about(which we dont think has more than about 25k on it since it had a full rebuild and it was a clean runner), new heat shield seals for the injectors.
I have adjusted the fuel pump timing - advanced about 2 degrees and running much better.
I have put in a hydraulic valve lifter oil additive.
The engine was serviced(oil and filters) around october just gone and has only covered about 5-600 miles tops (as then I started getting a problem or 2 with hard starting which is when this thread began)
The slight squeal you can hear is actually the alternator belt, the waterpump itself was brand new less than 5000 miles ago when I did the cambelt and put the engine in.
Now I have managed to upload it, heres the video that was taken 3 hours after that last one: http://youtu.be/BvBFs7HCau0 (http://youtu.be/BvBFs7HCau0) you can see it is similar/the same running as the first video I posted, where when cold it wont idle without the cold start at all.
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Being that this carried over with two sets of injectors.. Have you checked the internal pressure of the injection pump recently?
2 degrees of actual pump movement? Like literally a pencil line width or two? Probably needs substantially more, its worth a shot.. you can't go too far and hurt anything. Give it a good bump, like 5-6mm of physical pump twist and see what that does.
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That start-up sounds like the last one I had with the input shaft on the pump sucking a bunch of air.
The intermittent ticking sounds like a completely collapsed lifter(or bad cam lobe), it's about half crank speed.
I'd replace em asap, if so you have a valve that is barely opening and it'll never run or start right. It sounds like it's trying
to function on three cylinders part of the time.
A compression/leakdown test would be a good idea just to rule it out after the lifter replacement.
And are you parked at a crime scene? That's police tape on the ground isn't it? :)
edit: after watching the first vid I see why you haven't popped lifters in there yet, ouch, no room.
Any access from above through floor?
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That start-up sounds like the last one I had with the input shaft on the pump sucking a bunch of air.
The intermittent ticking sounds like a completely collapsed lifter(or bad cam lobe), it's about half crank speed.
I'd replace em asap, if so you have a valve that is barely opening and it'll never run or start right. It sounds like it's trying
to function on three cylinders part of the time.
A compression/leakdown test would be a good idea just to rule it out after the lifter replacement.
And are you parked at a crime scene? That's police tape on the ground isn't it? :)
edit: after watching the first vid I see why you haven't popped lifters in there yet, ouch, no room.
Any access from above through floor?
Lol, the police tape was a used prop from some filming where my dad works, admittedly it is a bit of a crime to put a diesel in a baywindow bus :D
Anyway lets see what else I found today.
I thought while its light and sunny afterwork I'd take it for about a 2.5 miles blast, locally we have some really steep hills so I thought it will either kill it or do nothing to it.
Started up and it was still running like a bag, drove up the road and the manifold blow off valve opened up alot sooner than it normally does (eg it never normally does!) and I wondered if this could have been as a result of moving the timing a few degrees?
Anyway driving along I forgot how my vans like driving a bag of jelly (bad local roads lol) but it seemed to drive ok, a little smokey as it was still warming up but nothing to cause me much concern, still sounded a bit rattly. Anyway I went down hill to the bottom of this big hill, clear spot in the traffic so I nailed it and holy crap what alot of smoke!
in first and second gear there was a fair amount of dark grey/blue smoke and the inlet manifold pressure blow off was pretty much staying open! Changed into 3rd and it was still bellowing a little smoke but the blow off shut up.
It was still sounding really rattly after that too but it drove ok, so I got home and aside from lots of mechanical noise it was running ok. Its clear the hydraulic lifter additive hasnt really done a whole lot after around an hour of running, I would have expected at least some improvement.
So I then shot this video:
http://youtu.be/SaLnMnTYxEg (http://youtu.be/SaLnMnTYxEg)
which you can clearly see alot of smoke in the engine bay, some of which was coming out the back of the van as I was driving (making it look like it was on fire lol) but I cant really work out where its coming from, its either because of spilt diesel on the engine block bur4ning off or its coming from the airfilter where the engines breathing heavily.
Still you can hear the mechanical noise.
I ordered new hydraulic lifters online tonight, hoping they will be here by friday!
I'd say potentially I have noticed more diesel clatter now, just not over the mechanical noise at the moment.
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I wonder what effect if any having it laid over so far has? I would think
oil would pool in the top back side of the valve cover, I can't remember where the
drains are on the head. I know people put em in Vanagons and stuff all the time
so I guess it works.
Mind your air filter, is loose and spinning.
Fix that clacking, look real close at the cam lobes when it's out, make sure the new lifters
spin freely in the lifter bores, and make sure the valve stem head under them
isn't beat up or mushroomed. Pre-lube those new lifters too, and install with assembly lube.
After that's fixed revisit the injection system.
You said the pop off valve was opening on the intake, what PSI are you boosting to?
Lot of folks remove that thing all together. Others can comment better on that.
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I wonder what effect if any having it laid over so far has? I would think
oil would pool in the top back side of the valve cover, I can't remember where the
drains are on the head. I know people put em in Vanagons and stuff all the time
so I guess it works.
Mind your air filter, is loose and spinning.
Fix that clacking, look real close at the cam lobes when it's out, make sure the new lifters
spin freely in the lifter bores, and make sure the valve stem head under them
isn't beat up or mushroomed. Pre-lube those new lifters too, and install with assembly lube.
After that's fixed revisit the injection system.
You said the pop off valve was opening on the intake, what PSI are you boosting to?
Lot of folks remove that thing all together. Others can comment better on that.
Ignore the way that airfilter is spinning lol. its just the way its made and vibration, eg the rubber pipe that holds to the bottom of the airfilter isnt supertight so with all that vibration it rotates, its amusing but not going anywhere! (has quite large rubber flanges each side of the metal)
see now this is the thing, Vanagons came solid lifters as far as I know, although many have fitted these TD's and quite a few have started putting in the 1.9TD/TDi from the mk3 golf in(which are all hyd). Strangely I am sure the the oil drain back to the block is actually at the front of the head, not the back (its in the centre between cyl 2 and 3) although looking at my book there may be drain aways also on the back corners of the head.
Its unfortunately that I currently dont know what my EGT's are or my Boost is, I dont have any gauges in the bus other than fuel and water temp. I have got an oil temp too but havent hooked that up yet.
I have seen about others removing the blow off valve as I think it opens at 10-15psi?
I mean realistically I havent done any tuning to this van although I'd like to I kind left it alone to keep it reliable. Yeah didnt happen did it! The thing I dont want to do is get into tuning the fuel pump unless we find thats also a problem. I like the idea of tuning diesels adn stuff as they are super simple, I guess its just really difficult to troubleshoot a 155k mile engine in the back of a bus thats leaning at an angle!
My mk3 golf is currently petrol and the spare 1.6D I was planning to turbo/rebuild and tune that so I know its good and reliable and good mpg!
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One step at a time, for sure. Get rid of the mechanical fault, then see to the fuel issues.
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Right aside from a bit of an oil leak now I think its fixed!
So basically I changed my injectors which had made no difference, changed the timing which made things 'better' but not really that great, but had a mechanical noise which I was sure was top end, so I ordered new hydraulic tappets.
Changing the hydraulic tappets caused a bit of a headache/arguements with my dad over the cam pulley that doesnt have a woodruff key. Anyway I got them changed, put the cam in and realised I needed to totally retime the engine, cam to crank and fuel pump too, so I set the crank/cam timing, then seperately timed the fuel pump out to find it was massively advanced and I didnt think I'd moved it that far (I set it to about 0.9 on my gauge). I went to start it up and not a sausage of power!
Due to a design fault in the manufacture of my heater plug relay it got warm, the base warped a bit and the contacts lost any clearance they had causing it to be permanently on! this totally killed the battery! So anyway I had a spare relay which was presumed duff, no such thing it was fine and after much mucking about I managed to charge the battery enough and bleed the fuel lines through.
Let the glow plugs warm up, span it over with foot on throttle and it fired up pretty quickly for an almost dry fuel system. Ran a little lumpy but 4c here at the minute and no cold start!
Then it started leaking oil out the rocker cover *rolls eyes*, whats annoying about this is I used a more expensive all rubber later mk3 golf gasket I had for my other golf GT thinking the rubber one would seal better, seems not! so I have to investigate before I can take it for a drive.
I tried it also again today and its well 3-4c again with the glow plug light out span over a few times and fired straight up bit lumpy but then no cold start and cold temps, running pretty clean/as I'd expect!
So I think a combination of the tappets on cyl 3 failing (the exhaust one seemed a bit iffy) and timing out.
now for the next problem!
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Sounds good.
Did you replace the studs for the valve cover? (The rubber gasket with metal sleeves is incompatible with shouldered studs.)
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Sounds good.
Did you replace the studs for the valve cover? (The rubber gasket with metal sleeves is incompatible with shouldered studs.)
AH! no I didnt replace the studs, so basically I should be able to put normal bolts/studs in places of the existing ones, although I am not sure I have got m6 studs.
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The rubber valve gaskets I purchased here came with replacement studs (no-shoulders), since there are metal sleeves vulcanized into the holes.
Example pic (not the source i used):
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/VW-VOLKSWAGEN-GOLFJETTA-RABBIT-DIESEL-GTI-16V-NEW-RUBBER-VALVE-COVER-GASKET-SET-/00/$(KGrHqMOKjcE4uiDk3I9BOTE4KlG4Q~~48_35.JPG)
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I think I've actually bought those studs locally at hardware joints, I also think I've used metric bolts with a nice wide head.
On bolts, beware they aren't too deep.
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Well I took the studs out and ground the shoulders down so they were almost level with the threads, checked they went through the holes in the rubber gasket and put them back in, still dripped a tiny bit so took it off again, put shed loads of sealer round it and put it back together, it now drips occasionally but I wonder if this actually might be oil thats still around the engine and dripping off as it gets warm (havent taken it for a good blast up the road yet)
It starts and runs as I'd expect from one of these engines with alot lower miles on the clock! very little smoke and runs fine.
if this doesnt burn its oil off I#'ll get a new cork gasket for it and be done.
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Those ABA gaskets work really well if the valve cover isn't bent up. Clean and dry the rail and VC and use sparing sealant on the ends was the best way I found.
Short of gluing a cork one on both sides it was the only thing that ever made one stop leaking for me. And don't over-tighten.
Hope it runs right for you.