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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: deepmud on November 03, 2012, 09:02:07 pm
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Loooong story - I have an MTDI in my Suzuki Samurai, bolted up to a Toyota drivetrain. I used to have a 1.9td AAZ/Suzuki drivetrain combo, and loved it - should have kept it as it was - but anyway, I'm a beta tester sometimes - I cut the rig in half, stretched it, lifted it - I had ACME's beta vw-toyota adapter - had some issues, ACME resolved them - and finally after much much much modification my Suzi is up and ready to actually NEED some power.
I find that if I boost the motor, it just slows down (I've got the VNT under manual control). I can get to about 45 mph offroad in deep snow without boost - then I pulled the cable to close up the vnt, run it to 15psi of boost, and it just drags power to make the boost - no extra fueling. I've done all the mods to my pump that worked GREAT on my old AAZ - it made great power/spoke at 12 psi boost.
I think the fuel pin that follows the bevel on the boost diaphragm is stuck. The pump was to be a hybrid, built from an AAZ pump and a TDI pump. When I first started the motor (5 years ago? Something like that) it would barely run, with unburnt/white smoke. I advanced the timing (not with a dial indicator -just "some" - the pump pulley is one of those that has oblong slots to let it adjust easily) and it ran much better - starts right up and idles, and it has a lot of idle power - much of the time I don't bother with the throttle -it idles over rocks/stumps great.
The other issue - it has a heck of a time shutting off. When I turn the key, the idle drops to about 500 rpm (by ear) and shudders/ and bucks, but wont' shut off. I have to drop the clutch in gear to kill it. I can turn the power screw down, which brings idle down (and power) and it will usually shut off.
Is the top of the pump removable or should I grit my teeth and take it off for tear-down. I'm not a VW tech, but I was a Ford tech for 5 years, and have a degree in automotive tech - so I'm above average in ability - but not experienced inside a Bosch pump.
Erik
pics of the beast for the curious
http://www.supermotors.net/registry/7029
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/deepmud/Knik%20Glacier%20Run%203%202012/20120318_135543.jpg)
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That is a very cool rig. What kind of pump are you running?
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looks like an AAZ type pump - hopefully has the 10mm TDI internals...I have a pic, somewhere.....
I guess I'm hoping someone will say "oh yeah, that's the follower getting stuck, pull the top off of the pump, make sure it's clear, put it back together".......:D .....I'm thinking of taking a peek in there soon.....
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I had one in a pump that had sat, the follower pin was stuck for the first day, and the car was miserable.
after that, it would hang for a minute, then enrich with a cloud.
You can get to there by removing the pump top, even on the car if you can keep it clean (tinfoil hat)
Before that, you can pull the lid off the spaceship, and verify the LDA doesn't leak, and can move.
There is a tiny o ring around the follower pin, and you need to pull one of the lower bolt looking plugs to get to it.
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Sweet rig, and beautiful shot.
Did you put a different engine in it, or did you use the AAZ block and convert it to mTDI?
Something I'm interested in doing at some point...
Cheers!
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how are you controlling the vnt manually?
As for fueling issue I would maybe try running some diesel purge through the pump as well as what the others have suggested.
BTW, if that is stock drivetrain how does it like the boggers? Are those the 35x16 size? I have some 38.5x16 TSL on my bronco and the stock ford stuff doesn't like it.
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I would guess the issues are pump related the turbo problem might just be that it sounds like it operating it by hand with a cable or something
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I think you have multiple issues with the pump. If it doesn't shut off immediately, then either current is reaching the stop solenoid or the solenoid itself is at issue. Could be crud buildup causing it to not seal totally. Anyway, remove it, clean it up and reinstall it. As far as the poor performance, it's hard to say. There's a lot that can hang up inside the pump. Could also be timing related. I've found that timing to 1.35-1.4 on my pumps works really well but yours isn't one of mine so I can't say for sure. I'd jump the belt one tooth to advance it and see how it does. Diesel purge is a great idea. Pulling the top of the spaceship and making sure the pin can move would also be wise.
As far as the turbo control is concerned it sounds like you have a cable to control the vanes by hand. If you just close the vanes fully at higher rpms it acts like an engine brake.
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i was thinking the same ^ with the vanes pulled shut it restricts the exhaust quite a bit i imagine
Try putting a boost actuator inline with the cable, that way as soon as it hits the set boost level it puts the vanes back out(?) again to relieve pressure
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i was thinking the same ^ with the vanes pulled shut it restricts the exhaust quite a bit i imagine
Try putting a boost actuator inline with the cable, that way as soon as it hits the set boost level it puts the vanes back out(?) again to relieve pressure
Yup, and then attach the end to the accelerator lever so you don't have to mess with it by hand... 8)
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Pulling the top of the spaceship and making sure the pin can move would also be wise.
I have seen them where the pin will move, but the pin that actually comes out to interact with the boost pin has been stuck. So the whole lid may need to come off to get it resolved.
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You can pull the lid, pull the boost pin and then rotate the accelerator lever to the max and the feeler pin should pop out and be visible in the channel of the boost pin. I'd certainly check that out prior to pulling the lid.
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If it is stuck in the out position, like I have experienced personally, no amount of fooling with the boost pin will get it out past the lip on the bottom of it.
So, if you cannot remove your boost pin chances are the feeler pin is stuck in its bore and not allowing boost enrichment.
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looks like an AAZ type pump - hopefully has the 10mm TDI internals...I have a pic, somewhere.....
I guess I'm hoping someone will say "oh yeah, that's the follower getting stuck, pull the top off of the pump, make sure it's clear, put it back together".......:D .....I'm thinking of taking a peek in there soon.....
If it has an aaz top, there's a lever on the side of the pump that will shut the engine off if moved. If you have this lever, I would pull the top of the pump off and cut the end off it. This lever can limit max fuel delivery. I would also put a test light on the stop solenoid to check for power when shutting the engine off. If you're getting some power to the stop solenoid after shutting the ignition off, use a relay to isolate the circuit. If the power is cut off completely when the ignition is cut then do as libby says and remove, clean or replace the stop solenoid.
I'm doing a Jeep liberty turbo on a TDI right now with a wastegate off a K03. I've never tried this simple vane control but I'll let you know how it works out. For the vnt I would run it wherever it feels the best. Don't worry about what the gauge says.
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looks like an AAZ type pump - hopefully has the 10mm TDI internals...I have a pic, somewhere.....
I guess I'm hoping someone will say "oh yeah, that's the follower getting stuck, pull the top off of the pump, make sure it's clear, put it back together".......:D .....I'm thinking of taking a peek in there soon.....
If it has an aaz top, there's a lever on the side of the pump that will shut the engine off if moved. If you have this lever, I would pull the top of the pump off and cut the end off it. This lever can limit max fuel delivery. I would also put a test light on the stop solenoid to check for power when shutting the engine off. If you're getting some power to the stop solenoid after shutting the ignition off, use a relay to isolate the circuit. If the power is cut off completely when the ignition is cut then do as libby says and remove, clean or replace the stop solenoid.
I'm doing a Jeep liberty turbo on a TDI right now with a wastegate off a K03. I've never tried this simple vane control but I'll let you know how it works out. For the vnt I would run it wherever it feels the best. Don't worry about what the gauge says.
you will need a stronger can than a K03 unit.. mine opens WAY too soon..
you want something that is open by ~25psi, if you are running a VNT20 or VNT22/23
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you will need a stronger can than a K03 unit.. mine opens WAY too soon..
you want something that is open by ~25psi, if you are running a VNT20 or VNT22/23
The k03 wastegate can work just fine and be adjusted very easily using a restriction in the line and an adjustable bleed port. The adjustable bleed port can also be mounted in the cab to adjust on the fly. By using a restriction in the line, very little bleeding of the line is needed to change the wastegates operation. Not everyone wants to be running 25 psi. 18-20 would be more than enough for a mtdi in a sammy.
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you will need a stronger can than a K03 unit.. mine opens WAY too soon..
you want something that is open by ~25psi, if you are running a VNT20 or VNT22/23
The k03 wastegate can work just fine and be adjusted very easily using a restriction in the line and an adjustable bleed port. The adjustable bleed port can also be mounted in the cab to adjust on the fly. By using a restriction in the line, very little bleeding of the line is needed to change the wastegates operation. Not everyone wants to be running 25 psi. 18-20 would be more than enough for a mtdi in a sammy.
my setup makes 12psi, or 35psi..
with a restriction in the line, boost spikes would happen all the time..
i actually used 1/4" vacuum lines to make reaction times faster for everything..
i wish i could sustain 20psi without spikes, or 1800* egts..
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I take information that 410 says as more truthful than the Bible.
I'm sure the misses will love that little bit of extra sunshine I'm blowin' eh Jean? ;)!
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I take information that 410 says as more truthful than the Bible.
I'm sure the misses will love that little bit of extra sunshine I'm blowin' eh Jean? ;)!
dude, im the one running the setup tho..
how can my facts be less factual than his?
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Deepmud, feel free to pm me if you have any specific questions.
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I had one in a pump that had sat, the follower pin was stuck for the first day, and the car was miserable.
after that, it would hang for a minute, then enrich with a cloud.
You can get to there by removing the pump top, even on the car if you can keep it clean (tinfoil hat)
Before that, you can pull the lid off the spaceship, and verify the LDA doesn't leak, and can move.
There is a tiny o ring around the follower pin, and you need to pull one of the lower bolt looking plugs to get to it.
This is what I was hoping - that I could pull the lid without a spring shooting out, that can only be installed with the pump is completely apart :D - The LDA is dry, and moves - I cut the bejeezus of a wedge into it, but no response to boost.
I'm manually moving the VNT17 vanes closed for now- boost is great, but the power is not there - and no smoke, not even delayed, so I suppose I need to peak in there.
Lower, bolt-looking plug?
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You can pull the lid, pull the boost pin and then rotate the accelerator lever to the max and the feeler pin should pop out and be visible in the channel of the boost pin. I'd certainly check that out prior to pulling the lid.
Hmm - I don't think I'm seeing it pop out - will double check. Good simple test :D thanks.
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looks like an AAZ type pump - hopefully has the 10mm TDI internals...I have a pic, somewhere.....
I guess I'm hoping someone will say "oh yeah, that's the follower getting stuck, pull the top off of the pump, make sure it's clear, put it back together".......:D .....I'm thinking of taking a peek in there soon.....
If it has an aaz top, there's a lever on the side of the pump that will shut the engine off if moved. If you have this lever, I would pull the top of the pump off and cut the end off it. This lever can limit max fuel delivery. I would also put a test light on the stop solenoid to check for power when shutting the engine off. If you're getting some power to the stop solenoid after shutting the ignition off, use a relay to isolate the circuit. If the power is cut off completely when the ignition is cut then do as libby says and remove, clean or replace the stop solenoid.
I'm doing a Jeep liberty turbo on a TDI right now with a wastegate off a K03. I've never tried this simple vane control but I'll let you know how it works out. For the vnt I would run it wherever it feels the best. Don't worry about what the gauge says.
I'm confident it gets power - you can nearly shut off the motor with the key - it goes from about 1100 (when I have the smoke screw cranked in as far as I can stand the high idle) to about 450 ish - it bucks and jumps but won't shut off.
If I turn the idle down, it will shut off. But has even less power.......so I'll pull it and clean and see what it looks like down there as well....
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how are you controlling the vnt manually?
As for fueling issue I would maybe try running some diesel purge through the pump as well as what the others have suggested.
BTW, if that is stock drivetrain how does it like the boggers? Are those the 35x16 size? I have some 38.5x16 TSL on my bronco and the stock ford stuff doesn't like it.
39.5 but running Toyota axles, 5.29 gears, lunchbox locker in front, Fozzy-welded rear and the clincher - Longfields in the front end.
You should see the big tires.....:D I've borrowed a set of 45" tractor tires before.....
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Sweet rig, and beautiful shot.
Did you put a different engine in it, or did you use the AAZ block and convert it to mTDI?
Something I'm interested in doing at some point...
Cheers!
swapped a pre-convereted TDI from a Seat in the Czech Republic, actually....but the guy I sold my 1.9td got into a wreck right after swappnig in the motor into his Land Rover, and it wouldn't die with the rig on it's side, and scragged the bearings all thru - so while getting a. new head, he went TDI on the old 1.9td, got it to work great
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I think you have multiple issues with the pump. If it doesn't shut off immediately, then either current is reaching the stop solenoid or the solenoid itself is at issue. Could be crud buildup causing it to not seal totally. Anyway, remove it, clean it up and reinstall it. As far as the poor performance, it's hard to say. There's a lot that can hang up inside the pump. Could also be timing related. I've found that timing to 1.35-1.4 on my pumps works really well but yours isn't one of mine so I can't say for sure. I'd jump the belt one tooth to advance it and see how it does. Diesel purge is a great idea. Pulling the top of the spaceship and making sure the pin can move would also be wise.
As far as the turbo control is concerned it sounds like you have a cable to control the vanes by hand. If you just close the vanes fully at higher rpms it acts like an engine brake.
I think you are correct on mulitple counts :D Certainly, without extra fuel, forcing the motor to make boost with closed vanes just restricts the motor . Eventually I need to put a boost controller on there that turns the vanes open at some point. The rest we'll see went I pull the top off the pump off I guess.
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I take information that 410 says as more truthful than the Bible.
I'm sure the misses will love that little bit of extra sunshine I'm blowin' eh Jean? ;)!
dude, im the one running the setup tho..
how can my facts be less factual than his?
FWIW - My other motor, the 1.9td with a leetle bitty K14, I was able to put in a bleed to the boost controller, and I could dial in 10, 12, 15, whatever I wanted (stock setting was 8psi) - did you something that you could adjust? I can't see why you are getting such a jump - 35 seems like ALL you can get from that turbo, like you just disabled the controller.
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Deepmud, feel free to pm me if you have any specific questions.
Thanks!
I have my email notification turned on now :D that will help me respond faster - I'll get some pics of the pump, as it sits, and as I start opening it up i'll take more :D
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had to work on my daily driver instead but here are some pics of my pump.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/deepmud/vw%20TDI%20conversion/IMG_20121125_154807.jpg)
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/deepmud/vw%20TDI%20conversion/IMG_20121125_154830.jpg)
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(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/deepmud/vw%20TDI%20conversion/IMG_20130101_160652.jpg)
so - not as easy as I had hoped. I got the top loose - it pulled up, there was a "click" - like something is somewhere I can't put it back :( and I can't get it all the way off - I can tilt it forward - the hang-up is not that spring in the pic, it's something in the front.
Suggestions?
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=24323.0
^^ Read It ^^ ;)
Common problem. The other spring you can see? the shaft that rides down the middle of it is slotted on two sides so it can slide out of the black lever going up and down in the pump.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k18/idkf1/DIY%20Governor%20Mod/IMG_2998.jpg)
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k18/idkf1/DIY%20Governor%20Mod/IMG_2999.jpg)
PS. What are you doing opening your pump without the knowledge required? ;)
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=24323.0
^^ Read It ^^ ;)
Common problem. The other spring you can see? the shaft that rides down the middle of it is slotted on two sides so it can slide out of the black lever going up and down in the pump.
PS. What are you doing opening your pump without the knowledge required? ;)
:D No fear! If it doesn't work - it doesn't have to take ME to work, you know? :D I've found that most thingsI take apart, I found out how they go together again. I even used to me a factory mechanic - I went to school! ...to learn to swap out parts :D But I've got a knack for this kind of stuff. My grandfather was a blacksmith even :D . As long as I'm careful I expect to put it back as good as it was, and perhaps better.
I know I'm being silly avoiding pulling the pump to work inside -- I need to be confident in the getting the timing of the pump correct - once I get that down I think I can mod these things pretty well.
EDIT: and thanks! :D I see the problem. I sorta' was expecting the shaft to pull out...seems it's should have, and it will have to....
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man i love your work bench , its even got carpet on it , what happings when you get oil on it
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HAh! Good luck to you! :)
Master of snakes, those are not my pictures. MY work bench is a thick lucious shag ;)
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ok - got it out. Easy-peasy if you know to pull the shaft out.
The gov spring assembly.....
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/deepmud/vw%20TDI%20conversion/IMG_20130105_161812-1.jpg)
I can see the boost pin down under the boost diaphram - it moves freely. I don't know why the power is so bad...but next I'm doing the gov mod so cross your fingers and hope for smoke! :D
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It probably has crappy power because an IDI control lever assembly and accelerator lever were used both of which seriously limit fueling. Please post a pic of the end of the accelerator shaft and where it attaches to the governor spring capsule.
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When I originally had my m-tdi powered by a full IDI pump.. it was a dog. The 10mm internals did improve it, but nowhere near as good as the modified lever.. and then nowhere near as good as a stock Land Rover pump.
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(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/deepmud/vw%20TDI%20conversion/IMG_20130106_145619.jpg)
Enough shims?
So the while I can see a longer actuator giving more "throttle" movement for a given amount of turn I think it just doesn't fuel much to begin with.
I did find my line to feed boost pressure to the pump was a little loose.... could be part of the problem.... it could just be I don't have a hybrid like I was told. There is nothing I can see that makes me sure it was taken apart. I did have to reindex the throttle just to get it to start and idle.
All my pics of the pump are on Photo bucket.
http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/deepmud
http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/deepmud/vw TDI conversion/
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So to your knowledge it is a DI 10mm pump. Running a stock IDI internal throttle lever. I'd say that right there is the root to your evil. I could not for the life of me get any power from my M-TDI with the stock IDI lever, I doubt you will be able to either. I even shimmed my governor solid :O!
If it does have the 10mm DI cam plate, then that cam plate is huge and has a severe amount of plunger lift. The IDI throttle lever does not have enough movement to move the fuel control collar enough to act with it, thus severe under fueling.
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Thanks for the pic. It is as I expected.
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so the Direct Injected lever is longer? So that a given amount of input will provide a greater amount of fuel delivery?
I'll see if I can find a pic of a tdi fuel lever....in the meantime, I got the top back on. I need to find my starter-button, so I can start it from under the hood, and be ready to shut off the air if it starts to run away.....
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8v, this is from your thread - maybe it's the pic, but I'm not seeing the difference in the lever.
EDIT:
took your pic, did "paint cad" :D
and am I looking at the right spot?
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/deepmud/vw%20TDI%20conversion/ROVERshaft.jpg)
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I stuck my phone underneath the housing just during the install to get this shot -i was making sure I didn't roll/or cut the o-ring - does the throttle hit the housing? Should I clearance the gov cage and get a little more travel?
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/deepmud/vw%20TDI%20conversion/IMG_20130106_155802.jpg)
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Check out this post, in my M-TDI thread;
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=25420.msg284896#msg284896
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I would remove the lever from the end of the accel lever and cage and make a new one that is 1.5x as long on center. Also, get a control lever assembly from a Cummins VE pump and you'll be getting there.
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I could fab that for sure. I see 8v did a longer lever in his pump, as well - sort of like making a short-throw shifter .... but I'm only looking for SOME power, at least in the short term.
1.5x longer - next project - after I try out this shimmed governor thing.....
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Stock 1.6 accel lever offset is 0.36". Stock Landrover TDI lever is 0.55". I'd make the new lever as long as it can be without causing the cage to rub on the side of the pump lid.