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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Swartzvw on October 30, 2012, 01:44:06 pm
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Do you guys think this actuator would work for the boost limiter in a vane control linkage setup like libbybapa's?
http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/product.phtml?p=769&cat_key=660&prodname=Wastegate+Actuator%2C+18psi
Thanks.
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what turbo you running it on?
you gonna be running it by its self, or with the linkages?
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Sorry yeah, VNT17 with linkages.
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I ended up buying one like that, thinking like you did. Those controller are made for a valve type wastegate NOT vane control. They don't have enough movement for vane control. I have a new vacuum can at home I got with the 17 I bought, I think I still have it - I'd be will to sell it cheap, but you'd need to change it to a boost type controller.
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I ended up buying one like that, thinking like you did. Those controller are made for a valve type wastegate NOT vane control. They don't have enough movement for vane control. I have a new vacuum can at home I got with the 17 I bought, I think I still have it - I'd be will to sell it cheap, but you'd need to change it to a boost type controller.
how do they not have enough movement for vane control? they have a larger range of motion than the vane lever has..
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how do they not have enough movement for vane control? they have a larger range of motion than the vane lever has..
Thats what I was thinking too, the vane lever doesnt move very far.
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IMO, that would work well. In the mechanical vane controls I've built there has been a transition lever. You can make the lengths of the arms on that transition lever appropriately sized so that the range of motion of the vane lever matches the range of motion of the boost can.
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IMO, that would work well. In the mechanical vane controls I've built there has been a transition lever. You can make the lengths of the arms on that transition lever appropriately sized so that the range of motion of the vane lever matches the range of motion of the boost can.
thats exactly what i was getting at..
you make one arm have a variable length..
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The one I had only had roughly .050 movement. you'd have to increase that as the vane control moves much more than that. No biggy - I just think it's much easier to use what it came with, as far as ever needing replacement as well.
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The one I had only had roughly .050 movement. you'd have to increase that as the vane control moves much more than that. No biggy - I just think it's much easier to use what it came with, as far as ever needing replacement as well.
.050" movement?!
no way, it was broken..
all my wastegate cans move like 1-1.5" if nothing is connected to them..
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I think ill get one and try it out.
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Ended up ordering this guy. A little more expensive but comes with different springs to adjust opening pressure.
http://shopping.kinugawaturbo.com/kinugawabilletadjustableturboactuatorfitkinugawaturbotd05htd06sl2twinscroll518zhousing.aspx
We'll see how it works. Gotta figure out how to make all the linkages and brackets and what not now.
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OMG! THANK YOU!!!
a gift from the gods.. just what i needed!
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Looks like a very nice unit. Thanks for the link.
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OMG! THANK YOU!!!
a gift from the gods.. just what i needed!
Looks like a very nice unit. Thanks for the link.
You're welcome!
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Please keep us informed how it works.
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Please keep us informed how it works.
Will do.
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what about adding springs on the outside of the can?
those with the coils closed...
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what about adding springs on the outside of the can?
those with the coils closed...
doesnt work very well, thats how my turbo is setup currently..
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isnt the same as a stronger spring inside the can?
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isnt the same as a stronger spring inside the can?
I would think so, but look at the governor in our pumps three spring rates drives totally different than 1
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The difference between a single spring and idle spring and the VW dual spring and idle setup is minimal. The single spring just makes the initial pedal movement more effective and the dual spring makes the pedal do less initially. Both are totally drivable and I don't find the dual spring any more pleasant than the single spring. Regardless, two springs acting in the same direction with neither reaching the limit of their motion effectively add their rates together and behave the same as one spring that is of the combined rate.
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Great link on a potential VNT17 boost controller, looks like that kind of unit would be a good choice if it works. Woudl it need a special linkage setup?
What's your range of movement on the vane linkages, just wondering?
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The difference between a single spring and idle spring and the VW dual spring and idle setup is minimal. The single spring just makes the initial pedal movement more effective and the dual spring makes the pedal do less initially. Both are totally drivable and I don't find the dual spring any more pleasant than the single spring. Regardless, two springs acting in the same direction with neither reaching the limit of their motion effectively add their rates together and behave the same as one spring that is of the combined rate.
well certainly you know far more about all that than i do, from what i read in the 1.5 sae paper, they used the other style governor because of being in a car which was lighter, the specific speed oriented single spring governor was more noticable, but i have never driven anything other than caged setups.
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The difference between a single spring and idle spring and the VW dual spring and idle setup is minimal. The single spring just makes the initial pedal movement more effective and the dual spring makes the pedal do less initially. Both are totally drivable and I don't find the dual spring any more pleasant than the single spring. Regardless, two springs acting in the same direction with neither reaching the limit of their motion effectively add their rates together and behave the same as one spring that is of the combined rate.
well certainly you know far more about all that than i do, from what i read in the 1.5 sae paper, they used the other style governor because of being in a car which was lighter, the specific speed oriented single spring governor was more noticable, but i have never driven anything other than caged setups.
never heard of/seen a VW pump WITHOUT a caged governor..
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I've seen both caged and un-caged single springs in automotive use. The single spring does not equate to a single speed governor although I'm sure all single-speed applications use a single spring because the only benefit (arguable) to the dual spring is to adjust the feel of the pedal. The dual spring setup gives it more the feel of an older carb gas engine with primary and secondary that open in series.
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I've seen both caged and un-caged single springs in automotive use. The single spring does not equate to a single speed governor although I'm sure all single-speed applications use a single spring because the only benefit (arguable) to the dual spring is to adjust the feel of the pedal. The dual spring setup gives it more the feel of an older carb gas engine with primary and secondary that open in series.
never noticed my diesel having different pedal resistance based on throttle position, unlike my CIS gassers with the progressively opening throttle bodys..
thats the only thing i DONT like about my diesel, there is no "economy stop" for the throttle..
on the gasser, i usually never throttle it more than where you meet the resistance of the secondaries.. keeps the smileage alot better when you stay out of the secondaries ;)
every vw diesel ive ever driven, has the same throttle pedal feel.. and its nothing like the resistance felt from the secondaries opening up..
not saying you are wrong, but maybe ive been doing something wrong?
even with the governor stock or shimmed solid, i never notice there being any extra resistance at any position in the throttle..
correct me if im wrong, but you arent supposed to be able to FEEL the governor in the pedal, are you?!
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No, but you feel it in how the vehicle responds.
With a dual spring, you come to a hill, and have to mash the pedal. with the single spring, you hold the pedal steady, and the gov moves itself to full load to maintain speed.
some of the ALH cars have an annoying thing that pumps up under the gas pedal and gives that secondary resistance feel.
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No, but you feel it in how the vehicle responds.
With a dual spring, you come to a hill, and have to mash the pedal. with the single spring, you hold the pedal steady, and the gov moves itself to full load to maintain speed.
some of the ALH cars have an annoying thing that pumps up under the gas pedal and gives that secondary resistance feel.
ok, i totally buy that..
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No, but you feel it in how the vehicle responds.
That is correct. It changes the performance characteristics, slightly.
With a dual spring, you come to a hill, and have to mash the pedal. with the single spring, you hold the pedal steady, and the gov moves itself to full load to maintain speed.
That is not correct. A single spring does not work like that unless it is a single spring with a rate specifically for that purpose. With a single spring with a rate the same as the main spring in a dual spring setup, you will need to mash the pedal almost the same amount when you hit a hill. The only difference with a dual spring setup is that the first part of the accelerator's motion causes less of an increase in fueling up to the point when the intermediate spring is fully compressed after which the performance is exactly the same.
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That is not correct. A single spring does not work like that unless it is a single spring with a rate specifically for that purpose. With a single spring with a rate the same as the main spring in a dual spring setup, you will need to mash the pedal almost the same amount when you hit a hill. The only difference with a dual spring setup is that the first part of the accelerator's motion causes less of an increase in fueling up to the point when the intermediate spring is fully compressed after which the performance is exactly the same.
I'll add my $0.02 CAD.
The caged governor on our VWs is a min/max governor. It only effects the bottom and the top of the RPM range. In the middle RPMs, your foot is a direct link to the quantity of fuel injected into the engine. That is why you have to give it throttle to go up a hill. With a single spring, the entire RPM range is governed by that spring, therefore you do not need to give it more throttle to get up a hill. You may need to downshift depending on load though.
This is why you can't use a caged governor on a genset, it will not keep a steady RPM based on engine load.
I'd love to try an uncaged governor in a VW, I think it would net fantastic mileage once you get used to driving it. An uncaged governor can use multiple springs to help get off idle smoothly.
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I have tried several uncaged springs in VWs and you most certainly do need to give it more pedal to go up hills if the spring rate is similar to the stock main spring. The engine speed varies very much with load with the single uncaged spring just like the stock caged dual spring setup in fact it is almost difficult to tell the difference in performance if the rates match. As I mentioned, the only difference is that the first part of the pedal (when the intermediate spring is being compressed) has a little less effect on fueling with the stock setup. The driving experience is so similar that I really marvel that VW/Bosch went to the trouble of the dual springs. It's similar to having the multiple accelerator return springs to give an imperceptible change to the feel of the pedal.
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I don't know what spring is in my cummins pump that I got off truckinwagen, but I hated it. All I know is he told me it was a single spring. The way it drove compared to my other pump was weird. Don't know if it would be the pump or the spring, all I know is I hated it.
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That is not correct. A single spring does not work like that unless it is a single spring with a rate specifically for that purpose. With a single spring with a rate the same as the main spring in a dual spring setup, you will need to mash the pedal almost the same amount when you hit a hill. The only difference with a dual spring setup is that the first part of the accelerator's motion causes less of an increase in fueling up to the point when the intermediate spring is fully compressed after which the performance is exactly the same.
I'll add my $0.02 CAD.
The caged governor on our VWs is a min/max governor. It only effects the bottom and the top of the RPM range. In the middle RPMs, your foot is a direct link to the quantity of fuel injected into the engine. That is why you have to give it throttle to go up a hill. With a single spring, the entire RPM range is governed by that spring, therefore you do not need to give it more throttle to get up a hill. You may need to downshift depending on load though.
This is why you can't use a caged governor on a genset, it will not keep a steady RPM based on engine load.
I'd love to try an uncaged governor in a VW, I think it would net fantastic mileage once you get used to driving it. An uncaged governor can use multiple springs to help get off idle smoothly.
That was my understanding of it. Libby is it only vanagons you have driven with a single spring? Sae papers say they made the change because the drivability wasn't good in a small car which is obviously considerably lighter than a vanagon. But mr Libby probably still has more experience with the 2 different set ups than anyone else, like I said before I haven't ever even driven a cummins or anything
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I have only used the single spring in vanagons. At some point I may try one in my rabbit, but it is a low priority (curiosity only).
As far as what you guys are saying about the single spring is also how I understood the behavior from what I had read until I actually started experimenting with them. There is a difference to the performance. The first part of the accelerator pedal's movement has a more dramatic effect on fueling and the top part has less but it certainly doesn't create an instant pedal position cruise control. I wish it did.