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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: rodpaslow on October 11, 2012, 09:07:54 am
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Anyone have both? I have added a cummins heater to mine and just wondering if you use both to start when cold (talking winter temps in Can below 0 or 32°F)?
I was thinking using glow plugs after cycling the heater once and then on while cranking?
Just Curious for those of you that have a grid heater..
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LOL, I actually disabled the grid heater on my Cummins.
I'm kind of wondering how you fit that in your VW engine though, it seems like a square peg in a round hole to me.
I would have used intake air heaters from a powerstroke. They look like gasser spark plugs with a heating coil at the end, so it's just a matter of drilling and tapping the holes. And they're easy to find.
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It's pretty easy actually, i removed the elbow on top of the intake, had some 3/4" aluminum plates cut with the intake opening, threaded & drilled the bottom one to bolt to the intake and another 3/4" plate (both aluminum) to bolt the heater down and connected the elbow back on top of the top plate. It fits beautifully -
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m618/rodderboost/20121011_122141_zpsafb54599.jpg)
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congrats, you added an intake restriction!
well, i guess that might not be a huge restriction, but it doesnt help flow, thats for sure..
why did you add it? was your car hard to start?
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Yes, it's a relatively new engine (probably less than 7000 mi), at minus 5°C (about 29°F) it had a real hard time starting. I'm going to double check all glow plugs were working, I might have one I need to change, as it was turning over fast enough and firing it just didn't want to take off after about 30 sec of cranking. It was continually firing, just not enough cylinders at the right time. I think I need to review starting procedures as I know your supposed to step on the pedal a bit, but I think I was giving to much.
I wanted to add the grid heater or something like it to help when its below -10 or so. If this doesn't help, I might look at a diesel burning coolant heater, but I know they are moocho-denairo $$! This is for when I can't plug in the block heater.
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Yes, it's a relatively new engine (probably less than 7000 mi), at minus 5°C (about 29°F) it had a real hard time starting. I'm going to double check all glow plugs were working, I might have one I need to change, as it was turning over fast enough and firing it just didn't want to take off after about 30 sec of cranking. It was continually firing, just not enough cylinders at the right time. I think I need to review starting procedures as I know your supposed to step on the pedal a bit, but I think I was giving to much.
I wanted to add the grid heater or something like it to help when its below -10 or so. If this doesn't help, I might look at a diesel burning coolant heater, but I know they are moocho-denairo $$! This is for when I can't plug in the block heater.
new engines dont like to start good until the rings are good and seated..
has this engine been revved into its upper RPM range since you re-built it?
and you cant step on the throttle too much.. the governor controls the throttle 100% of the time..
have you checked your timing? it sounds to me like your timing is retarded. my car used to start just like that with severely retarded injection timing..
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It is a heating grid from a 5.9L Cummins engine?? No restriction on the 6 cyl.. How is it now a restriction on the 1.6L engine then? ;)
K3vo, you need to venture to Saskatchewan.. or slightly east of there if you ever want to understand what "really $%^%$& cold" is.. They have a completely different type of winter there all together, it is unlike anywhere else in the world.. except maybe the Arctic Circle.
How much does the grid heater draw? Does it drain the battery down so that maybe it is to weak to effectively spin your engine over? Or have you upgraded the battery to Cummins equipment as well? ;) I currently have a 1150CCA Ford F350 battery spinning my engine over.. Never ever ever have an issue with starter speed.
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It is a heating grid from a 5.9L Cummins engine?? No restriction on the 6 cyl.. How is it now a restriction on the 1.6L engine then? ;)
K3vo, you need to venture to Saskatchewan.. or slightly east of there if you ever want to understand what "really $%^%$& cold" is.. They have a completely different type of winter there all together, it is unlike anywhere else in the world.. except maybe the Arctic Circle.
How much does the grid heater draw? Does it drain the battery down so that maybe it is to weak to effectively spin your engine over? Or have you upgraded the battery to Cummins equipment as well? ;) I currently have a 1150CCA Ford F350 battery spinning my engine over.. Never ever ever have an issue with starter speed.
if its not a restriction to the 5.9, then why do 100 different companies make a delete kit for it that claims to give you lower EGTs and quicker spool up? but like i said, being that there is a stock manifold inlet elbow above it, restrictions dont really matter, because the whole intake manifold and inlet elbow are the most restrictive parts in the whole system.. that heater grid couldnt have HELPED flow tho, thats for sure..
shouldnt need more than a stock size battery to start a healthy VW either..
my car will start with one battery.. even with the glow plugs not working..
is it cold enough up there that a diesel wont start easy even after being plugged in, and glowing the plugs?
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Saskatchewan has a pretty consistent winter temperature of Colder than Hell. Regina and Winnipeg (commonly called Winterpeg) are two cities where idling of vehicles is of the utmost necessity to have them be able to stay running. Meaning.. if you shut it down you probably won't get it going again lol. Typical Saskatchewan winters are -30c or colder.. Gas cars have issues starting in this weather man! lol
Well ok if it IS a restriction on a 5.9, it is more than likely not one on a 1.6. Also what kind of power are you expecting to make out of a stock 1.6 intake manifold? haha.
It may be a healthy VW, but it now has a power hungry grid heater on top of it. Does he use the glows as well to start it?
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Saskatchewan has a pretty consistent winter temperature of Colder than Hell. Regina and Winnipeg (commonly called Winterpeg) are two cities where idling of vehicles is of the utmost necessity to have them be able to stay running. Meaning.. if you shut it down you probably won't get it going again lol. Typical Saskatchewan winters are -30c or colder.. Gas cars have issues starting in this weather man! lol
Well ok if it IS a restriction on a 5.9, it is more than likely not one on a 1.6. Also what kind of power are you expecting to make out of a stock 1.6 intake manifold? haha.
It may be a healthy VW, but it now has a power hungry grid heater on top of it. Does he use the glows as well to start it?
god, i would hope soo..
and ive never seen batteries much bigger than 1000CCA that fit in the stock VW location without mods..
if he adds too much draw to the system, hes gonna need another battery.. maybe another alt..
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1987 Ford F350 batteries fit with out the use of the stock hold down ;). Get a 120A TDI alternator and you are all set for grid heater, glow plugs, coolant glows, and 3 batteries if you please lol
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The Cummins grid heater draws over 100 amps.
And it is restrictive. But they are the only "starting aid" those engines were equipped with. TDIs somewhat unique in being direct-injected and having glow plugs.
And they're fairly unnecessary on a Cummins in all but the most frigid climates, though I do plan to hook mine back up.
I can see the purpose of having one on one of the harder to start, older diesels, if you live somewhere really cold.
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Check your timing man, mines a touch retarded and she smoked this morning but caught the first rev, then I scraped the frost off the windshield. Can't complain, had a good run of sunshine this year.
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I set the timing not long ago, with the proper dial gauge. It's not set at 1mm like the book says. I have a Giles pump and I set it at a wee bit closer to book (bentley manual) suggested timing. I have it set at .98 I now it's right between what Giles suggests and Bently manual. I don't think it's a timing issue because any temp above freezing it starts immediately. I would agree with such little mileage on this engine things may not be 100% as far as rings, etc.
I have a 1000 cc amp battery in it. I have just hooked up the grid heater yesterday and it has not been cold enough the last day or two, to give it a try. I checked all glow plugs and all are good - with the test light check anyway. I suspect they are fine, as I say the car was firing, so I don't think I need to do an amp check on them.
I don't drive this car to beat hell, I find no difference in power with this in place. I even suspect that is may take some of the turbulence out of the air going into the engine because of the turbulence created by that crappy elbow. (I know, it's probably not true, but I like to think it might)
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I've started my IDI engines down to -20°C without block heater and they will fire right up even here in Flagstaff where the altitude results in a 20% reduction in compression. They run a bit rough for a little bit and two glow cycles instead of one can help, but certainly no issue starting at that temp. It has been very rare that I have done so, tho. At those temps I fairly religiously plug in the block heater because the temperature shock of starting an engine that cold is terrible for it. I suppose if you need to start a cold engine at -30°C the grid heater might help. I'd rather move, tho.
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1987 Ford F350 batteries fit with out the use of the stock hold down ;). Get a 120A TDI alternator and you are all set for grid heater, glow plugs, coolant glows, and 3 batteries if you please lol
VR uses the same alt, but much cheaper and easier to get..
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Still need a diesel alt setup.
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Slightly off topic but, When i ran my merc 190d on bio i added petrol to the mix to help us through the winter, it hit below -15°C in the Pennines in Yorkshire a few nights every winter.
Does anyone add petrol to diesel for the VW idi?
I know that the diesel should be rated for cold enough conditions but i don't want to get caught out.
thanks in advance
Nathan
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I have added Kerosene in the past and the owners manual says u can add either to aid cold starting
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Still need a diesel alt setup.
why do you need a diesel alternator?
the alternator is the same wether its on a TDI or a VR6...
i have a VR alt bolted to my 1.8 gasser...
with the proper bracket, it would work on a diesel no problems...
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I would think same size as a diesel alternator, but smaller would also work, just a bit longer to charge. My drive is roughly 25 min, more than long enough to recharge the battery.
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I got a grid heater on my diesel and this is how I start it. Let the glow plugs cycle and then start. After it started turn on grid heater. I can turn either just one grid on or both. depends on the temp. Each grid sucks up 100 amps. I tried starting the car with the both grid heaters on and no dice. after running the glow plugs and 200 amps from the grid heater and starter would not turn over fast enough.
Also I have a cyclic timer on the grid heat. it turns on for 30 sec and off for 25 sec. I let it run for about two cycles and then I am good to go. With my franken engine this helps out a lot.
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I have added Kerosene in the past and the owners manual says u can add either to aid cold starting
Gotta be careful with that ULSD though, already very low amounts of lubrication. If you were adding any Kerosene or Gasoline to your diesel.. I'd be adding a lot of lubrication.
Still need a diesel alt setup.
why do you need a diesel alternator?
Alt setup a.k.a the bracket ;).
I would think same size as a diesel alternator, but smaller would also work, just a bit longer to charge. My drive is roughly 25 min, more than long enough to recharge the battery.
Even the smallest VW alternator found on these engines (55a?) would be more than adequate to charge the battery alone, and would not add any extra charge time. A larger amperage alternator is found on VR6 and TDI stuff because of so much more electrical demand.
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What would you add as a lubricant?
Something like http://www.amazon.co.uk/Forte-Lubricants-Advanced-Formula-Treatment/dp/B0035PUUES (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Forte-Lubricants-Advanced-Formula-Treatment/dp/B0035PUUES)
or a little veg oil?
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There's a few different things I've seen used:
- 2-stroke oil
- Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF)
- Straight motor oil (non-multigrade)
- Biodiesel mix
Here in BC all diesel is now 5% biodiesel. That has taken care of any lubrication issues anyone might encounter. 5% is a fine mix for nearly any weather conditions while providing significantly improved lubrication.
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Bugnut - do you find the grid heater helps to recover (that is if it's missing - not firing all, all the time cold) faster? I just run one grid at the moment and it seem like it does. It needs to get colder here to better test it.
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I set the timing not long ago, with the proper dial gauge. It's not set at 1mm like the book says. I have a Giles pump and I set it at a wee bit closer to book (bentley manual) suggested timing. I have it set at .98 I now it's right between what Giles suggests and Bently manual. I don't think it's a timing issue because any temp above freezing it starts immediately.
Set your pump according to how it runs,.. not so it matches a number.
Try advancing your timing anyway, just to humor us.
How are you using your cold start lever?
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Bugnut - do you find the grid heater helps to recover (that is if it's missing - not firing all, all the time cold) faster? I just run one grid at the moment and it seem like it does. It needs to get colder here to better test it.
It helps a lot to get the engine to fire on all 4. without it I am smoking like crazy then about 10-15 sec of grid heat and I am clear out the tail pipe and running like it should. Most of the time I am running just the one grid but for them real cold days I turn both on.
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I like all the cold start help when it drops below minus 10. Plug in is best when available, but have started my 1.6 at 40 below just using glow plugs and a strong battery, then it hammered for about five minutes. An intake heater would really help then. Likely wore a couple years life off the starter, probably only last 30 years and 800,000 now. I understand 5% biodiesel is the best lubrication additive, didn't know it is in all diesel in BC. I have always used Stanadyne lubricity in my 6.5 as it is one of the best additives for lubricity, after bio.
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Slightly off topic but, When i ran my merc 190d on bio i added petrol to the mix to help us through the winter, it hit below -15°C in the Pennines in Yorkshire a few nights every winter.
Does anyone add petrol to diesel for the VW idi?
I know that the diesel should be rated for cold enough conditions but i don't want to get caught out.
thanks in advance
Nathan
They sell an additive product here in the states called "Arctic Express," that is supposed to keep the fuel liquid at cold temperatures. I've never used it, because well, it's mid-October and we're still seeing triple digit temperatures (in farenheit) so I've never really needed it. But I've heard it works. I would imagine that they sell something similar in the UK.
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I find the problem is not the fuel gelling, especially with the fuel we get these days is a lot thinner and I've driven my car in -40 degree weather and no problems.
Just an update - It was -5°C this morning (about 28-29°F) and I run the grid heater for 20 seconds and start the glow plugs after having the grid heater on for 15s, and run the glow plugs 20 seconds as well (was a gas car so manual controls on both). It starts like it was +5 or +10 ten out. The grid heater seems to have a big affect on starting on this engine. I'd have been turning it over for a while 30 sec or more without the grid heater.
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I find the problem is not the fuel gelling, especially with the fuel we get these days is a lot thinner and I've driven my car in -40 degree weather and no problems.
Just an update - It was -5°C this morning (about 28-29°F) and I run the grid heater for 20 seconds and start the glow plugs after having the grid heater on for 15s, and run the glow plugs 20 seconds as well (was a gas car so manual controls on both). It starts like it was +5 or +10 ten out. The grid heater seems to have a big affect on starting on this engine. I'd have been turning it over for a while 30 sec or more without the grid heater.
why are you burning the grid heater before the plugs?
the only time the grid heater needs to work, is when the engine is turning over, and pulling air past the grid heater..
when the engine is stationary, all the grid heater is doing, is warming up the air immediately around it..
how long does it take the grid heater to warm up?
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The grid heater on my 1st gen Cummins takes about as much time as "fast" VW glowplugs. It does not run at all while cranking. I do not know why. I suppose it has to do with the fact that it draws so many amps. The thing draws as many amps as the starter on some small cars. I think you would kill a VW battery with the starter + grid + glow plugs at the same time. And it gets red hot in a matter of seconds, so I think it stays warm enough to heat the incoming air. My Cummins also has an electric fuel heater that cycles when the vehicle is started until it's warm. All these things (along with the KSB timing advance) come on when the ambient temp is below about 50F, above this there is no starting aid.
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It was much colder this morning (-10c) and I found running the grid heater before the glow plugs doesn't help a whole bunch. I have the largest battery my MK3 can handle, so I thought I'd try both at the same time. This worked the best at it started a bit slower than usual, cranked over a couple times and then started without too much missing. Grid heater reduced the missing after starting to like 5 or 10 seconds.
I will be plugging it in, in the future I just wanted to see how much of a difference it makes. I only have half (top strip) working on this heater so with just the one, it takes a couple seconds to heat up.
I read somewhere that below -10 in a cummins, the grid heater works for roughly 30 sec. I think I will try it about this time and see if that helps a bit more.
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Does a dodge truck with a grid heater have a single battery or does it use two? I was just curious.
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Does a dodge truck with a grid heater have a single battery or does it use two? I was just curious.
pretty sure all cummins powered dodges use 2 batts..
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1st gen trucks (89-93)use only one battery. 2nd gen(94-current) and on use two.
Pre heating the air is good because the first crank will ingest the hot air. When I tried grid heat first and then glow plug followed by cranking it was just too much for the battery. Very slow cranking. Now I glow plug, crank and once it fires pull the cold start and turn on the grid. Without the grid the engine will not stay running when cold. Have to cycle the glow plugs a few times then start, that was before the grid heater was installed.
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wow, ive never had problems with my diesel.. it has weak compression even!
started last year even with the temps down to 9*f
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Mine will not start easily, and by that I mean crank for a minute or more to get it going. Like I say, it's relatively new engine less than 7000 mi on it, so I know compression is good as all cylinders are firing when cold and above freezing it starts first crank. But it seem the grid heater just gives it that bit extra it needs so I'm not cranking it forever to get it going when cold. Of course I will be plugging it in where I can from now on, I just wanted to see if it would start adequately cold with the addition of the grid, and I'm pretty happy with the results using it.
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Mine will not start easily, and by that I mean crank for a minute or more to get it going. Like I say, it's relatively new engine less than 7000 mi on it, so I know compression is good as all cylinders are firing when cold and above freezing it starts first crank. But it seem the grid heater just gives it that bit extra it needs so I'm not cranking it forever to get it going when cold. Of course I will be plugging it in where I can from now on, I just wanted to see if it would start adequately cold with the addition of the grid, and I'm pretty happy with the results using it.
engines that new DO NOT have awesome compression tho...
the last engine i rebuilt, took a long time, like 6 months IIRC, to get to where it would start really easy every time..
how new are your injectors? if they arent atomizing correctly, it wont start good..
does it smoke the whole time you are cranking on it? or does it only smoke right before it fires up?
i can start my car WITHOUT glow plugs, if i crank for a minute or so...
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how long are the glowplugs supposed to cycle for? I have mine set on a manual switch.
8 seconds for fast plugs, 16 seconds for slow plugs..
after a while, you get a feel for them.
alot of times, i dont use mine, just for the initial cold start..
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Something else to note is that the plugs do not actually turn off when the light goes out, if you listen u can hear the relay click a few seconds after the light goes out
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Something else to note is that the plugs do not actually turn off when the light goes out, if you listen u can hear the relay click a few seconds after the light goes out
yup, the light does not signal that the plugs do, or do not have power to them..
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The injectors in this car of mine are relatively new -like maybe 14 or 15k miles on it. It will smoke a bit, maybe 30 seconds if below freezing outside-not as long with the grid heater on after starting. I don't think is a problem with any fuel component as the injectors and pump were both done by Giles, performance diesel not that long ago.
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The injectors in this car of mine are relatively new -like maybe 14 or 15k miles on it. It will smoke a bit, maybe 30 seconds if below freezing outside-not as long with the grid heater on after starting. I don't think is a problem with any fuel component as the injectors and pump were both done by Giles, performance diesel not that long ago.
so, you have new injectors AND rings?!
rings take a long time to seat, and injectors take a long time to finally settle in..
i bet in a year from now, it will be starting better than a new car, without much use of heaters..