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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Snowyroads on October 04, 2012, 06:20:10 pm
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Okay so i have to do this on my phone so i cant go into every detail but know that I'm pretty good with vw diesels so please spare some of the obvious answers. Also read my vortex threads to learn a bit more http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5808123-I-call-him-Turbs.-83-Rabbit-TD
Ip is timed but I later found it to be a yellow dot 107a pump so ill plan to re-time the pump soon. Right now it starts rough, tons of white smoke, very little power (40 mph max speed in 4th gear) I have oil residue in my coolant reservoir. And I bought the car with the motor just rebuilt.
I'm going to test compression this weekend, but its definitely a head gasket issue, right? Probably less than 100 miles on the motor. The PO said it needed a transmission but i bought the car for a grand thinking it'd just be a quick ip timing and I'd have a fresh motor.
I also have the 1.6 td pump that came with the '83. The wiring is still there in the engine bay. Would that pump directly bolt on to the 1.5 and would I see any change? I know glegor on the vortex had said something about increased fuel or something like that.
I'm going to have my injectors tested when I test the compression. I'm about 1000 miles from home at the moment. I'm not afraid to pull the head but I'm worried about a cracked block or head. Would it be better to try and re torque the head bolts before I go any deeper?
I'm going to try and rebuild my 1.6td in the near future but i need this thing running. Riding a motorcycle is fun but not everyday and Iowa isn't getting any warmer
Ty, Ty
'kyle
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You sir are certainly not one to give up...but i would pull the head and pan and see if the 1.5l was rebuilt properly.
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Well I kinda have been lying to my parents on the reliability of the '78 rabbit ever since I got it when I lived in Seattle so now I really gotta get it working ;)
I guess I'd see no change from the td pump. I finally read about the lda.
What could I see if I pulled the oil pan? I'm almost certain the PO cheaped out on the rebuild.
I'm planning on checking piston protrusion when i pull the head, and put the correct gasket on. I'm just seriously worried about a cracked or warped head/block.
I heard oversized pistons are next to impossible to find. And the head cant be shaved more than .003 in. So how did he have it rebuilt?
I'd like to get my turbo rebuilt and throw the td pump on my 1.5 for now but I need the motor running next to perfectly before I start dreaming about that. I got the turbo, pump, exhaust manifold, toilet bowl exhaust piping, and air box/ intake manifold.
Never dabbled in forced induction so I feel I'd be in way over my head with that
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Are you certain the IP is not 180 degrees out of time? The symptoms described would correspond.
Oil residue could be from a previous HG failure, if the rez wasn't cleaned. I'd check for combustion-vapor. Kits are 35-40 bucks.
The 1.6 TD pump will work... if the exhaust is sooty, just dial back the full-load screw.
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I think you will get a more focused and helpful response if you summarize your vehicle history. I can't even tell if it was previously running.
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Not enough info, post a video of how its running, is atleast firing on all 4? I do know you can't trust previous owners.
Is there a cold start lever hooked up to the pump? If so what happens after its running and you pull it? Does it smoke less and run smoother?
I would start from scratch and retime the belt and then injection pump. Fill the pump with atf and let it sit for a day, then run it some more and do it again. Make sure its pumping good with no air/restrictions.
If there is fresh oil puking into reservoir thats one thing, or maybe there is just residue from a bad clean job after the rebuild? Especially if the hoses, etc. were left on the car, they may have broken down.
What is the water flow like, if its dramatic head gasket problem exhaust gases are going to make their way out with the cap off and when it gets bad it will empty the water out of the system pretty quick and can overheat your car. My last one a family member overheated and blew the head gasket, I had to pull over every mile to refill with water as it was forcing it out when I limped it home. If it wasn't for the quick overheating though the car would start and seemed to run the same.
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tHqVE4TEcVo
Okay ill try and clear it up a bit for you guys.
The 1.5 was rebuilt by a machine shop that the PO worked at. Car was never driving. My test drive was more than interesting. Super slow. Guy said transmission was bad.
The 83 was sitting for years under a tarp with the head pulled. A co worker of mine had too many projects so I bought it from him.
I was able to drive the car 13 miles across town but i had to keep the pedal to th floor and 3rd gear was the best chance to keep any speed. Once the revs got high enough, it had a tiny bit of pull, but shift into 4th and bluurrbb. Nothing
The cold start lever seemed to have no affect on power or the amount of smoke. I dontt think my coolant system is over pressurized so that keeps the worries at bay. Eager to get home finally and start getting some work done. Ill update you all tonight
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Hey bud, Glegor here..
the 1.5 pump shouldnt need to be timed that high unless it has the 180bar injectors with it..
and the 1.5 pump wont add any more fuel than the 1.6 pump is capable of..
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So you could have all sorts of issues. That video has terrible sound on my end. Do the injectors sound like they are hammering or pinging at all? What does the exhaust smell like? No air going to inlet of the pump?
To me it doesn't seem the engine is missing and making the engine lopey, just seems like it needs to be advanced?
I would start over with that timing belt, make sure its all timed up then time the pump again. And at that point if the injectors aren't pinging advance it a bit at a time. For fun just crack all the bolts holding the pump on so you can nudge the pump advanced with a mallet and see what the car does in real time.
Does it look like your pump has lock collar on the fuel screw? I got a pump months back in a wierd condition like you describe power wise. Started out ok with me in the garage setting idle and max rpm settings via the tach. Went out of the driveway and knew I was in trouble rather quickly but went onto the road anyway. Almost stalled a bunch of times when letting the clutch out and had no boost, etc. So I started to mess with the fuel screw a fraction of a turn at a time followed by a little test drive each time and brought it back to life.
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Ill just chime in on the oil in the water issue..it could be residual from before...
to clean out that nasty stuff,get some cascade dishwasher detergent and a qt of hot water...throw a fair amount of cascade in the hot water bottle and shake the crap out of it...throw it in the rad and drive around,drain rinse repeat :)
yea drain the water to begin with,fill with fresh and do the cascade trick...ya may need to do it a few times.just rinse with water once or twice after ya do it
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Hey bud, Glegor here..
the 1.5 pump shouldnt need to be timed that high unless it has the 180bar injectors with it..
and the 1.5 pump wont add any more fuel than the 1.6 pump is capable of..
No such thing as 180 bar for vw idi, yellow dot pumps need more advance, mine is set at 1.15, book recommends between 1.1 and 1.2, the car sounds like its timed retarded since its smoking which makes sense. Time it properly and see where you're at then before u go chasing a bad hg
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Hey bud, Glegor here..
the 1.5 pump shouldnt need to be timed that high unless it has the 180bar injectors with it..
and the 1.5 pump wont add any more fuel than the 1.6 pump is capable of..
No such thing as 180 bar for vw idi, yellow dot pumps need more advance, mine is set at 1.15, book recommends between 1.1 and 1.2, the car sounds like its timed retarded since its smoking which makes sense. Time it properly and see where you're at then before u go chasing a bad hg
no dude, the 1.5 had a 1.15mm timing spec because of 180bar injectors..
i swear ive seen reference to the first 1.5Ds using 180bar injectors.
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Hey bud, Glegor here..
the 1.5 pump shouldnt need to be timed that high unless it has the 180bar injectors with it..
and the 1.5 pump wont add any more fuel than the 1.6 pump is capable of..
No such thing as 180 bar for vw idi, yellow dot pumps need more advance, mine is set at 1.15, book recommends between 1.1 and 1.2, the car sounds like its timed retarded since its smoking which makes sense. Time it properly and see where you're at then before u go chasing a bad hg
no dude, the 1.5 had a 1.15mm timing spec because of 180bar injectors..
i swear ive seen reference to the first 1.5Ds using 180bar injectors.
i have to disagree for 2 reasons, i have never seen that breaking pressure documented anywhere not in a bentley or to be bought anywhere the only excepttion is for maybe a tdi, and i've seen it a few times on this forum but never anything definitive, and also i have a yellow dot pump on my 1.6 with relatively new standard injectors and set to 1.15 and it is not over clackity at all and drives and sounds just like the 1.6 pump i took off due to a leak, next time i am messing with it i actually plan to bump it up to 1.2 and see how it goes.
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What could I see if I pulled the oil pan? I'm almost certain the PO cheaped out on the rebuild.
I'm planning on checking piston protrusion when i pull the head, and put the correct gasket on. I'm just seriously worried about a cracked or warped head/block.
I heard oversized pistons are next to impossible to find. And the head cant be shaved more than .003 in. So how did he have it rebuilt?
Yeah, i was following your thread on the Vortex when you were in Seattle...the engine looked great on the outside, which makes me wonder why the PO didn't do something as simple as the set the timing correctly having gone to all the work of sourcing new (or salvaged?) 1.5 pistons and bearings/pins (they are available but mostly scarce) and putting it all back together.
If you aren't getting pressure in the coolant system Tyler and everyone are probably right about the oil in the coolant...i'd just want to know what i got given the questions...you didn't buy the Rabbit from Adam did you???
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A short update..
So I took a torque wrench to the bolts and 8 of them had an eighth of a turn left in them ;)
Pulled my injectors and none of them had heat shields. Had them pop tested today and they are all bad so I'm going to have them rebuilt. Ill set my timing and we will see how it goes from there.
Too much pressure from my parents and I caved in and I'm set to buy a 98 jetta gasser tonight :/ Hey ill take it for $1500
More updates when I get the money. Thank you all so much for all your help
Edit: bought the car from a guy who spoke terrible English but he had 6 vws
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No heat shields???? No wonder it ran like ***. Hey everyone needs a beater an aba mkiii is the ideal beater car too
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almost bought a Ford ranger.... God help me. The jetta will be my 3rd mk 3 and my seventh vw ive owned. She says reverse doesn't work. Wish me luck. Thanks to my 96 golf, I can do a clutch/ transmission job in a days time.
I'm just a diesel guy at heart but everyone needs tat feeling that only beating the shiz out of a car provides
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Edit: bought the car from a guy who spoke terrible English but he had 6 vws
Huummm...Adam had a shop in Seattle with a couple of guys from Kosovo working for him; their English was not so great.
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A bit of an update:
So im still fighting the car every step of the way. I feel like im getting somewhere at last but nothing seems to be the cure all.
I do believe my pump was 180 out. I had the injectors rebuilt. Shop said all 4 were bad. The car would start but absolutely tons of white smoke and poor running. Turned the IP 180 degrees and tried again. I had it set to .88mm as it is a 1.5D pump. After a lot of cranking, and the cold start pulled out, I was getting one surge from the engine as it roared to life, then died. But with dark grey smoke this time! ;D
After a bunch of confusion and some reading as to it being a yellow dot pump. I do believe it is such but im not sure. Its a 107A pump. I timed the pump to 1.15mm this time and tried again. The exact same results. About 20 seconds of cranking over and it lives for one good surge and dies. Same dark grey smoke.
2 things also to mention and yet to be tried. The car was running with the white smoke on 3 month old diesel. So im going to try and use fresh stuff in a jerry can and see what i get. And trickle charge my battery back to full capacity. And if that gives me nothing, well Im going to try one of the other two pumps i got. Another 107A pump the seller gave me. Or the TD pump that was on the 1.6TD that was in the car when i got it.
Is there something that usually goes hand and hand with that cranking issue? I know ive read others describe that exact symptom of a single surge of energy and then death.
One last thing: Is there a trick to loosening the bottom IP mounting bolt, behind the alternator bracket? Like a U-joint and 3in extension? I have to pull the alt, bracket just to change the pump timing at current point and time.
Thanks for all the replies thus far. I will get this damned car up and running or die underneath it in a horrible crushing death. Those cheapy autozone jack stands have terrible welds :-[
Pics and a video update soon
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I would say the old diesel and the deal of if it hasn't been running there is air. I have had mine that would blow white smoke for almost 10 minutes of driving. Plus it has not been running so with the air in the lines/pump it is a cold engine which doesn't burn fuel well. If you take the nut off the IP and look at the keyway when the engine is at TDC for the #1 cylinder compression stroke the key way will be pointing approx 10 o'clock. If not it is 180 out. There are two TDC's one compression one exhaust for a cylinder, so make sure that you have the correct one.
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I tried finding the keyway and even pulling the pulley from the pump with no such luck. I bought the wrong puller for the tug job :P
After more reading, I am pretty convinced I just have too much air in the system. Ill bleed the air from the hard lines on saturday and see what it gives me first.
Even after i do all this work and the motor runs properly, i still have a list a mile long of things to do before i even attempt to drive it. Like the headlights.
I had to look up in the bentley to even see how to operate the headlights. The headlight knob in the cabin does not pull out towards the driver like the glow plug knob. It does rotate left and right (as if to dim the dash lights) and clicks at far left turn. But After convincing myself last night that i just wasn't pulling hard enough, i yanked it clean off the metal rod. I may be pulling the dash to remedy this biz but do all rabbits have that same knob that pulls out? Is there a high beam option? the turn signal switch didn't click when i pulled back on it
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You don't need to pull anything but the nut off to find the keyway on the IP. Take the nut off and look at the pump. There is a slot cut in the pulley for the woodruff key. That is what needs to be pointing approx 10 o'clock at TDC.
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After a bunch of confusion and some reading as to it being a yellow dot pump. I do believe it is such but im not sure. Its a 107A pump. I timed the pump to 1.15mm this time and tried again. The exact same results. About 20 seconds of cranking over and it lives for one good surge and dies. Same dark grey smoke.
Dark grey is a good sign, means there is definitely fuel getting in to the cylinders and it is more near proper combustion than white or black smoke. Also the timing of 1.15mm is a good spot, leave it there. Whether it is a yellow dot or a used 1.6 pump, that high of advance will help with a lot of issues.
2 things also to mention and yet to be tried. The car was running with the white smoke on 3 month old diesel. So im going to try and use fresh stuff in a jerry can and see what i get. And trickle charge my battery back to full capacity. And if that gives me nothing, well Im going to try one of the other two pumps i got. Another 107A pump the seller gave me. Or the TD pump that was on the 1.6TD that was in the car when i got it.
Yes, probably not the issue with the fuel.. but get some new stuff and run it from the jerry can with separate fuel lines, both running in to the jerry can. Charge the battery up, and when you attempt to give it a go again get another vehicle there with it running and booster cables. I wouldn't even think about priming/filling a pump with battery power alone.. never gonna happen and have enough juice to turn it fast enough when you eventually get fuel up there.
Is there something that usually goes hand and hand with that cranking issue? I know ive read others describe that exact symptom of a single surge of energy and then death.
Empty fuel pump, pretty much the only thing.
One last thing: Is there a trick to loosening the bottom IP mounting bolt, behind the alternator bracket? Like a U-joint and 3in extension? I have to pull the alt, bracket just to change the pump timing at current point and time.
1/4" socket wrench with a short 13mm on the end of it, never had a problem on several 1.6's 1.9's and TDI's.
I tried finding the keyway and even pulling the pulley from the pump with no such luck. I bought the wrong puller for the tug job :P
There is a way to tell where TDC is without removing the nut or the pulley.. Your smallest hole on the injection pulley should line up with the hole behind it in the pump bracket;
(http://volkswagen.workshop-manuals.com/golf-mk3/images/golf-mk3-3610.png)
After more reading, I am pretty convinced I just have too much air in the system. Ill bleed the air from the hard lines on saturday and see what it gives me first.
After you get the fuel lines in to some fresh fuel, crack the nuts on the injectors and crank it over until you get fuel at the connections.
Even after i do all this work and the motor runs properly, i still have a list a mile long of things to do before i even attempt to drive it. Like the headlights.
I had to look up in the bentley to even see how to operate the headlights. The headlight knob in the cabin does not pull out towards the driver like the glow plug knob. It does rotate left and right (as if to dim the dash lights) and clicks at far left turn. But After convincing myself last night that i just wasn't pulling hard enough, i yanked it clean off the metal rod. I may be pulling the dash to remedy this biz but do all rabbits have that same knob that pulls out? Is there a high beam option? the turn signal switch didn't click when i pulled back on it
Rabbits should just be a pull and push headlight switch. But I do not know, I have never driven a Rabbit. Only Jetta's for this guy ;)
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I tried finding the keyway and even pulling the pulley from the pump with no such luck. I bought the wrong puller for the tug job :P
After more reading, I am pretty convinced I just have too much air in the system. Ill bleed the air from the hard lines on saturday and see what it gives me first.
Even after i do all this work and the motor runs properly, i still have a list a mile long of things to do before i even attempt to drive it. Like the headlights.
I had to look up in the bentley to even see how to operate the headlights. The headlight knob in the cabin does not pull out towards the driver like the glow plug knob. It does rotate left and right (as if to dim the dash lights) and clicks at far left turn. But After convincing myself last night that i just wasn't pulling hard enough, i yanked it clean off the metal rod. I may be pulling the dash to remedy this biz but do all rabbits have that same knob that pulls out? Is there a high beam option? the turn signal switch didn't click when i pulled back on it
my 79 german rabbit has a rocker type switch in the dash that seems to only fit it. all the other switches from rabbits i got the from the junkyard don't mate to the cluster mounts but were also rocker type switches.
i got an 83 gti dash from somebody and it has that different type of headlight switch with the knob. its connector is different on the harness side to from what i can see. when i get some time i hope i can swap this entire setup into my rabbit with an mk2 cluster and call it good with some aftermarket gages i have.
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If it starts it probably has enough compression. Probably is something fairly simple like valve or injection timing. Lots of good advice here.
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The headlights do have a high/low beam switch in the stalk, but it isn't relayed, so you won't hear a relay click. Sounds like your headlight switch is buggered.
Also, the glow plugs don't have a knob, that's your cold start advance.