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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: QuickTD on September 30, 2012, 08:51:04 am
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I believe I have found my project. Yesterday I dragged home a 2002 passat 1.8T manual with sludged/blown engine and an exceptional body. I wasn't entirely sure what I was going to do with it but...
Serendipity.
My freind who was also my truck driver for the recovery, who also messes with vw's, mentioned that he had most of a 2005 passat TDI with severe damage to the right side. He had bought it to repair front end damage on another passat. I had no idea he had this kind of "inventory". Anyway, I now own it as well.
The plan is to meld these 2 into something drivable. The TDI swap appears mechanically straightforward. Engine fuel tank and lines, Intercooler, exhaust, ecm, accessory drive brackets and instrument cluster will be transferred from the TDI to the 1.8t. I will use the 1.8T transaxle for now though the ratios are not ideal. I may seek out a V6 5th gear or whole trans once I'm up and running. Clutch will be a single mass valeo 1.8T unit and I will be deleting the balance shaft module and installing an ALH oil pump in its place. This is machinery, it vibrates.
I have the complete wiring harness and electronics are my specialty so alterations will be made as required.
Only thing needed at this point is someone to recode the ecm for the manual trans as I'm sure the absence of the trans controller will light the MIL. Redrotors, malone, TDtuning you out there?
Pics and story to follow.
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Should be a great project but grab that V6 transmission, you can probably get one pretty cheap.
Upgrade the clutch and pressure plate on the Valeo SMF conversion, I am told that VR6 clutch and pressure plates fit but you might want to verify. The stock torque limit on the valeo clutch is pretty low.
Jon
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The reality is the V6 trans isn't much better. Same final drive ratio, 3.7:1. Fifth gear is .837 for 1.8 and .78 for the six. Thats about a 7% improvement. If one turns up during the build, I'll use it. Otherwise it will happen later. I don't do much freeway around here and 2400rpm @100km/k is fine with me for now.
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Dragged home another piece of the puzzle today, a V6 012 transaxle. It will be sacrificing its 4th and 5th gears for the greater good. Naturally, I dismantled it as soon as I got home. With the case opened, the wheels began to turn... 3rd gear looks remarkably similar to 5th, only inverted. The 3rd gearset in a 1.8t box is 28:40. or inverted it would be 40:28, a 0.7 overdrive. This would be ideal for TDI use. All these people importing transmissions could use something like this.
I hit the books (etka) and it turns out the 3rd gear (shifting) uses the same OD bearing and the same synchronizer ring. It is a bit wider but that would be little trouble. Cermet insert and 10 minutes in the lathe = solved.
This is too easy...
The fixed gear is a bit more problematic. The splined inner diameter is considerably larger than that of the fixed 5th gear. I don't do internal splines, but..
5th gears are not really in short supply I'm pretty sure with one more trip to the boneyard I could produce enough parts to accomplish my goal. I would first cut the teeth from a 5th gear until its OD is slightly larger than the ID of the 3rd gear, then bore the 3rd gear hub until the remains of the 5th gear could be pressed nicely inside. A quick bead around it with the TIG and voila, 0.7 5th gear for the 012 transmission.
Might not happen right away but definately food for thought.
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(http://i.imgur.com/y8F8s.gif)
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Some pics to maintain interest,
The donor,
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg15/QuickTD/Photo0054.jpg)
The recipient,
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg15/QuickTD/Photo0048.jpg)
The donor engine, fuel tank, exhaust, wiring and cluster are out, canadian thanksgiving (time taker... >:() tomorrow so no progress until Monday. Should be able to get balance shaft delete done and clutch installed at that time.
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Here,this might help http://www.v12diablo.co.uk/resources/gearbox/type012/
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Thanks, thats good stuff right there!
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I had a chance to finish dismantling the V6 trans tonight and I have some interesting observations. The fixed 5th gear is retained only by a heavy press fit on the mainshaft, no splines, no keys. This is good news beacause it simplifies the fitting of third gear in its place. All I have to do is bore the spline out of the 3rd gear and press in a bushing sized for a tight fit on the mainshaft.
The shifting 3rd is even better, it is a direct fit in the 5th gear location. I originally thought it was wider but it is only the gear face that is wider, the overall width is identical. They use a slightly narrower single row bearing in the 5th gearset for snap ring clearance, hence the different wear pattern on the bores.
Due to the helical gears, when flipped the thrust directions will be opposite, no problem on the fixed gear, it is locked to the shaft and the input shaft can accept thrust in either direction. The shifting gear is locked to the shaft between the syncro hub and the fixed 4th gear when under power, therefore no motion relative to the shaft when loaded. The output/pinion shaft can take tremendous thrust in any direction as it is suspended on back to back tapered roller bearings. I see no problems arising from thrust.
I just have to pull the 1.8t trans, it has the "good" final drive and the 3rd gearset I want and it will be the case I use. Bush the 3rd gear. Then reassemble the 1.8t box using 3rd and 4th gearsets from the V6 to fill in the gaps and top it off with the new inverted third as 5th. The ultimate wide ratio TDI gearbox. Well not quite, a six speed would be better but...
Here is a pic of the V6 3rd and 5th gearsets side by side. 3rd on the left 5th on the right.
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg15/QuickTD/SANY0001.jpg)
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Very interesting, would you mind taking a few pics along the way? I have a spare trans here and I'd love to get it all set up to drop in if I ever wreck the one in my Passat.
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I will document ther process completely.
What trans are you running in your B5? What are the ratios and how do you like it?
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Mine is the stock 012 trans that came with my passat - DHL is the trans code, its a real TDI trans.
I wouldn't mind having a spare with the torque levels I'm running.
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Mine is the stock 012 trans that came with my passat - DHL is the trans code, its a real TDI trans.
I wouldn't mind having a spare with the torque levels I'm running.
those trannies are fairly tough tho..
or do you have ASTRONOMICAL amounts of tq?
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I'm running probably just over 300ft-lbs of torque. A transmission builder(Scott Dewitt of Advanced Automotion) says I'm pushing my luck.
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JFettig, I looked up your trans code and it does indeed have a very tall 5th (0.68) but a lower final drive (3.889) than the newer 1.8t and V6 transaxles. An overall 2.645:1. My intended build will end up 0.70:1 with a 3.7 final for an overall of 2.59. Having driven a B5 passat TDI, do you find your gearing tall or short? If you could change it which way would you go?
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I think I could use another gear, or just overall make the trans just a hair taller(even 1st). The ratios are very close to what you find in North American MK4 platform.
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Super, I'm on the right track then.
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I can get you a brand new 6spd Audi fwd Trans for $350+shipping. P/N: 01X-300-044-EX
I don't have the gear ratios, try looking them up.
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The gear ratios would be good (0.658 6th x 3.75 final = 2.4675 O/A), but I would need a bunch of supporting hardware, driveshafts etc. to fit the B6 trans in my current body. I think I'll stick to my plan. If I hate the result, I'll be in touch...
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Good progress today. Engine, trans, evap system and engine harness are out of the recipient. The diesel fuel tank is installed. Balance shaft module on the donor engine is deleted, replaced with an ALH oil pump, crank sprocket, tensioner and chain with a 1.8T oil pickup tube. Oil feed hole to the balance shaft module plugged and an ALH windage tray installed. Replaced the crank seal, timing belt, tensioner, roller and water pump while I was in there. Cam looks good for now.
Next order of business is the trans. Now that I have the 1.8T gearbox on the floor I can begin swapping in the V6 3rd and 4th gearsets and the "inverted 3rd" 5th gear. Beer now, tomorrow is another day...
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Good progress today. Engine, trans, evap system and engine harness are out of the recipient. The diesel fuel tank is installed. Balance shaft module on the donor engine is deleted, replaced with an ALH oil pump, crank sprocket, tensioner and chain with a 1.8T oil pickup tube. Oil feed hole to the balance shaft module plugged and an ALH windage tray installed. Replaced the crank seal, timing belt, tensioner, roller and water pump while I was in there. Cam looks good for now.
Next order of business is the trans. Now that I have the 1.8T gearbox on the floor I can begin swapping in the V6 3rd and 4th gearsets and the "inverted 3rd" 5th gear. Beer now, tomorrow is another day...
Cool, nice progress on the swap so farr. Especially like your plan for making a tall 5th. One thing that interests me is your choice to delete the balance shaft. Is it because it would get in the way of something you are doing to the engine internals, or just because you are going for big power and want to delete the rotating friction of the shaft? Or do the PD's have balance shaft concerns? Either way this is shaping up to be a pretty fun Passat. Can't wait to see how the B platform's handling characteristics merge with the drivetrain's newfound output. Good luck!
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Cool, nice progress on the swap so farr. Especially like your plan for making a tall 5th. One thing that interests me is your choice to delete the balance shaft. Is it because it would get in the way of something you are doing to the engine internals, or just because you are going for big power and want to delete the rotating friction of the shaft? Or do the PD's have balance shaft concerns? Either way this is shaping up to be a pretty fun Passat. Can't wait to see how the B platform's handling characteristics merge with the drivetrain's newfound output. Good luck!
Sadly the plan for the tall 5th went bad today. I chipped a tooth on the 3rd gear that I had planned on using as 5th. I was just trying to ease it up on the shaft a bit to get the puller jaws under it and a heard a little ping. That was that... I may entertain other transmission offers, not sure yet...
I removed the balance shaft module because they frequently destroy the drive chain and then the motor. The "VW approved" fix is a new gear driven balance module for $1500. I don't think so... None of the other TDI's use balance shafts, only the B5. Apparently a higher level of refinement is required for the passat.
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Oh, no! Horrible thing to hear, sorry. Probably jinxed it by asking about it. :P
Never knew about the Passat PD engines having balance shafts crap out on them, but I'm an IDI guy so you'll have to forgive me on that. But the thing is I'm actually a dealership tech and I've never seen a TDI Passat have that problem . . . but hen again I notice you're in Canada, so you probably got a completely different engine than we did.
And to be that nit-picky guy, the 1Z/AHU engines did use balance shafts, but they are timing belt driven instead of chain driven, so I guess the combustion 'shock' is mitigated by the belt.
Anyone on TDIclub selling gear assemblies? Don't forget G60ING's offer of an audi 6 speed if any other searches go bad!
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:o mike......... mike............ mike............ 1z/ahu tdi do not have balance shafts... think passat 2.0?? but the new approved method is balance shaft delete now... they no longer make the gear modual.. and chains eat the engine when they fail...
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Oh crap, I just called the intermediate shafts the balance shafts!! Drat, that is what I get for posting on a tired mind! :P
But back to seriousness, what are the tell tale signs that a balance shaft is failing on your engine?
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what are the tell tale signs that a balance shaft is failing on your engine?
That it contains one with chains ;)
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1st timming belt... not heard of them making a 2nd one before damage...
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The trans build is back on, without any "rigging" this time. I scored a set of TDI 0.69 5th gears last night from a private seller on TDIclub. Should have them this week and I can get this thing together.
Anyone that says money doesn't solve problems hasn't worked on cars...
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Finally moving on this project again. I wanted to use the 3rd and 4th gears from the V6 trans to fill in the gaps but it turns out older 012 transaxles have a different spline diameter on the output shaft 4th gear. Not a huge deal, I just ordered a new output shaft 4th gear from VW. 2 weeks and $250 later it showed up and I was able to finally assemble the transaxle. New TDI 5th gears fit perfectly and its all buttoned up and filled with 2.25l of motul gear 300. I guess I've spent about 800 bucks on the trans at this point, not sure how that compares to a european import...
I've been working on the swap at a buddys shop and he's been busy with real work so hopefully I can get hoist access next weekend to install the diesel in the recipient. After that its just ECM fixes/tune and assorted details.
If your ol' lady catches you doing this, don't blame me...
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg15/QuickTD/SANY0007.jpg)
The toaster oven has been relegated to the garage so I figure its fair game.
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg15/QuickTD/SANY0008.jpg)
5th gear installed,
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg15/QuickTD/SANY0009.jpg)
Quality tools are your friend. If you want to work on transmissions, there are no substitutes for these. Best 40 bucks I've spent.
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg15/QuickTD/SANY0010.jpg)
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It lives! I installed the engine and transmission yesterday. A few wiring gremlins related to fuel pump relay and ECM "wake up" power, all sorted out today. The thing fired instantly after sitting for a year and it runs and drives great. CEL is on but only 2 codes, no comunication with TCU, thats expected, it physically isn't there... And a code for cooling fans. The 1.8t fans are not ECM controlled, or at least not in the same way as the TDI. No big deal, hit the drawings and I'll get it sorted out. The transmission works superbly, no real awkward gaps, bit of a jump to 5th, which suits me fine. Oddly enough the cruise works, as does the MFA. The engine is very smooth in spite of the solid flywheel and balancer delete. A little buzz at idle but once underway it isn't noticable. I think its quieter inside than my 2006 mazda 6 V6. It also seems to have more power than the 225hp mazda...
I am actually shocked by the amount of power it has, just smooth effortless thrust. With a mild chip tune this will be all I'll ever need.
All thats left is the cooling fan glitch, reverse light switch needs to be connected (auto used a different plug) and the ECM needs to be reflashed to ignore the TCM.
I'll probably fix up a few other things before I put it on the road. It's always easier to do it before its a daily driver. I'm getting a new trunk lid under the perforation warranty, it has some rust near the licence plate lights and it needs a good cleaning inside and out. It also has a cracked windshield, safety-able but not pretty. I may get a new one installed, I've come this far...
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Please post the reflash details on getting the ECM to 'forget' the TCM; see about it 'forgetting' the EGR as well! ;) And I've got access to ElsaWeb; just let me know if you need any wiring diagram info to take care of the cooling fan stuff. Hope you kept the old manual box reverse lamp plug so you could spice it in.
Sounds like your project is near endgame; excellent job. Good luck with all the miles you'll spend with it!
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I will let you know about the reflash stuff. I'm in no great hurry to send away the ECM, I'll get all the other stuff cleaned up and make sure I have no other codes/issues before proceeding. Runs great now, just has an annoying light ;D
Thanks for the offer, but I'm hooked up pretty well as far as the drawings go. It also appears that the BHW fan harness is sort of a retrofit. The 3 speed/after-run setup was only used on the diesel and is more or less a plug-in affair. The ECM is really only looking for the after-run relay, the other 2 speeds are thermal switch controlled. I have the stuff so I figure it might as well work properly. I just need to pull the harness out of the junker and stick it into the new car. A fellow VW enthusiast has already snatched the 1.8T but it's not far away. He just wanted some internal bits, so I can still snag the reverse light switch connector from the harness.
Looks like I'm in the home stretch.
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I'll mabye have to get a ride in this beast sometime to verify its quickness with the 5 spd :)
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Andy, I'm not sure that you are capable of being a fair performance judge of any "stockish" VW... The land yacht does move out though. We'll see after the chip tune...
The car is now mechanically and electrically done. No fault codes other than the auto trans coding related stuff. I've decided to go with TD tuning for the ECM reflash. Would have liked to have used Malone but he seems busy?... TD tuning got back to me right away and Mike has done other cars of the same configuration with great success. Nothing like a sure thing.
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Yes, I attemted to contact malone with no luck.He is likely very very busy and might need to expand his services.
I have driven/worked on a couple stock passat 2L tdi's
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Please post the reflash details on getting the ECM to 'forget' the TCM
I'm not sure about the B5, but on the A4/mk4, on the ALH anyway, it was a simple 'recode' on the ECU to switch programs between 5spd and auto.
00001 = auto
00002 = 5spd
I think 00003 was for AWD/Haldex.
Tuners can load 2 or 3 programs into the ECU that you can switch between via a simple click of the recode button in VCDS/VagCom.
Just a thought.
-Dave
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Please post the reflash details on getting the ECM to 'forget' the TCM
I'm not sure about the B5, but on the A4/mk4, on the ALH anyway, it was a simple 'recode' on the ECU to switch programs between 5spd and auto.
00001 = auto
00002 = 5spd
That would be a happy thought... Unfortunately, the BHW engine was never sold in any other configuration anywhere in the world. VW only saw fit to load one program into the ECM from the factory.
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Sorry to hear it's not an easy fix.
I suppose a tuner like Malone can deal with it for you, once they figure it out.
In the mean time, what sort of alarms and bells do you get when you leave the TCM installed without the auto-trans installed?
You should probably turn the auto-trans off in the can-gateway, if you haven't already. That might clear things up a bit.
-Dave
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I never transplanted the auto trans controller. Its wiring was completely independant of the rest of the engine wiring. I have already turned it off in the can gateway. The remaining codes are,
ECM -18034 missing message from TCU
ABS - 18055 check coding of ECU's on powertrain data bus
Cluster - 01315 missing message from TCU. It also has a code in it for missing multi function steering wheel controller
I'm not sure how to code the cluster for my setup I have it at 07335 from 15345 which matches the equipment currently installed. I see nothing in the coding info about manual/auto or the multi function steering wheel. The MFA and cruise both work fine with the stalk controls though. I have tried multiple codings, even just some random stuff, no dice. Maybe there is something in adaptation that is not documented or maybe I have to use VDS Pro and work at a lower level? It doesn't set any lights so I'm not that worried about it.
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The car is now officially on the road. I have to drive it to Toronto to get the ECM reflashed, so I figured it might as well be legal. I put about 60 km on it this afternoon and it continues to impress me, loads of torque. 5th gear roll ons from 50km/hr are awesome, shoves you back in the seat. With the mazda 5th gear roll-ons just changed the sound of the exhaust...
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The car is now officially on the road. I have to drive it to Toronto to get the ECM reflashed, so I figured it might as well be legal. I put about 60 km on it this afternoon and it continues to impress me, loads of torque. 5th gear roll ons from 50km/hr are awesome, shoves you back in the seat. With the mazda 5th gear roll-ons just changed the sound of the exhaust...
Great thread. Nice progress too. Curious what flywheel and clutch set up you ended up using. I read solid FW but didn't notice other details.
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As I was registering the car, I noticed the date I bought it, Sept 28. Not too bad for less than two months only working on it weekends and the odd evening. Had a few 1-2 week delays for parts in there as well. Helps a lot to have a complete wreck to pull all the parts from. I am pretty happy with the way this has turned out. So happy, in fact, that I may fix up another passat for the better half. Possibly a gasser, but if the right parts were to come along... I really like the way the B5 passat is put together. It seems like a very high quality car.
I am using a valeo 228mm single mass conversion kit for the 1.8T. I believe it is also possible to use 240mm V6 parts on the diesel, though I didn't know it at the time... So far the clutch shows no sign of slipping whatsoever. As I recall it is rated at ~300ft/lb, so it may start to give trouble with a hot tune. The car is plenty quick already and it's a daily driver so I'm only going with TDtuning stage 1. I don't forsee any problems.
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Absolutely good turn around. Interesting about the 1.8T clutch set up. I have the DMF set up and mines apart. Tempted to upgrade now while it's out and sitting on the shop floor. Please post comments after you have it tuned.
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Let us know if you find out the V6 clutch would work. Nice work.
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I am running a Southbend Stage 2 endurance on their billet flywheel for a 1.8T in my Passat. Trans chatters like crazy but it holds good. Engagement is pretty grabby but its not too bad.
I inquired about that Valeo setup, one of the places told me that VR6 pressure plates and clutches work on the flywheel, you might want to verify but it would be a good setup for more torque if you get an upgraded VR6 setup.
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I just finished the final touches on this project. I reflashed the ECM using a loader from TD tuning. After the flash I changed the ECM coding to 0150031 and everything works fine. I left the ABS module coded as I had it at 00012.
I had a stage 1 tune put in along with the reflash, it pulls harder up top, nothing huge, it was plenty strong before. The clutch holds it just fine. I noticed that the revs would kind of hang when making shifts with the auto software. Some kind of driveline damping I guess. Thats all gone now with the manual code. Its now very quick to respond.
I had to do a slight rework on the ECM/engine harness. Seems they didn't include the clutch switch wiring in the auto version, though it is shown in the schematic. I should have checked earlier since there was a note in the drawing "manual trans only". I figured just the switch and plug would be omitted, not ALL the wiring. Anyway, I was able to cheat and use the existing kickdown switch wire to run from the bulkhead connector to the ECM. Didn't have to unwrap the harness or find any pins, just moved the terminals at each end to their new assignments.
I guess this completes the project, nothing interesting left to do. If anyone gets into something similar I'd be happy to share my experience.
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You know what this thread is missing? Pictures. And a video of senseless tire destruction :D
You can't see it, but my hat is off, well done.
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Senseless tire destruction? This is a class act man, not some bratty Mk2 golf. Sheesh... ;D The traction control now works so I have to remember to turn it off to lay rubber. I have a couple of pics of the finished product.
Engine almost looks like it was made to fit. I guess it was, sort of...
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg15/QuickTD/SANY0022600x450.jpg)
The car cleaned up really well too,
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg15/QuickTD/SANY0021600x450.jpg)
I'll see about a video...