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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: kevinm on September 22, 2012, 09:23:03 am

Title: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: kevinm on September 22, 2012, 09:23:03 am
Does this stuff make the engine run that much more efficiently or has my gauge just started to read 1/8 less than usual on the same hill i pull every day. I added double the recommended as im trying to get rid of black smoke, which it definitely helped.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4/Auto/3/AutoFluidsChemicals/DieselAdditives/PRDOVR~0380766P/Diesel+Kleen+with+Cetane+Boost.jsp?locale=en

Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on September 22, 2012, 12:07:57 pm
ive never noticed the gauge reading lower from adding something to the fuel..
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: kevinm on September 22, 2012, 02:07:22 pm
i think your right. but i have almost zero smoke now. it must have just been a cooler day.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: JamesT on September 23, 2012, 03:22:00 am
If it turns out to not be a fluke of temperature, I'd suggest checking your injection timing. Boosting cetane shortens ignition delay, which has a similar effect as advancing the timing. Maybe you could use a little more advance.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: libbydiesel on September 23, 2012, 06:36:55 am
Check your internal pressure.

I definitely notice a smoother tone, less smoke and less power on B100.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: mtrans on September 23, 2012, 10:10:02 am
is that for smoother tone mean retard?
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: ORCoaster on September 24, 2012, 09:36:32 pm
When I add wax to the diesel it gets smoother and quieter.  When I run BioDiesel I get a few more lbs of pressure in the pump.  When I run WVO I get a lot more pressure in the pump and that is with the oil heated to 160 F through two different heaters.

So I get a lot of different advances depending on the fuel type.  I was intreged by the questions of changing the timing on the fly as it "may affect" overall economy for some.  As of yet I haven't figured how to change timing under power at 65 mph.  Sitting behind the wheel for as many hours as I do I haven't been enlightened enough to try something just to see if it works.  I think the key is being able to see the advance under loaded conditions.  Then change the timing accordingly. 
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: mtrans on September 25, 2012, 10:25:56 am
ORCoaster
I`ll try that with ball valve,I just HAVE to,but now my engine is so OK and winter is coming,and of corse I must by valve,as I write on FAQ maybe on spring.Best in your WVO.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on September 25, 2012, 10:56:47 am
ORCoaster
I`ll try that with ball valve,I just HAVE to,but now my engine is so OK and winter is coming,and of corse I must by valve,as I write on FAQ maybe on spring.Best in your WVO.

how are you going to adjust internal pump pressure with a ball valve?

the REGULATOR is the part of the pump that determines the internal pressure..

how are you goin to change the pressure with a ball valve? making a bleed of sorts?
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: ORCoaster on September 25, 2012, 12:45:07 pm
Yeah,  How are you doing this?  The change needs to be made at the PR to make a difference in the internal pump pressure.  That is my problem, how to vary the PR setting when switching to different fuels and monitoring the internal pump gauge inside the car to keep it the same. 

Maybe he intends to starve the inlet to control the pressure.  I experienced that problem and it controls the IP pressure to a lower end.  So I suppose you could in theory set the PR to be high and then back off from that by restricting flow on the inlet.  But I don't think simply cutting back volume with a ball valve will do it.  Maybe it will.  I was experiencing vacuum pull as the flow restrictor. 

A dirty filter = ball valve in function.  Let him try it and see. 
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on September 25, 2012, 12:48:03 pm
Yeah,  How are you doing this?  The change needs to be made at the PR to make a difference in the internal pump pressure.  That is my problem, how to vary the PR setting when switching to different fuels and monitoring the internal pump gauge inside the car to keep it the same. 

Maybe he intends to starve the inlet to control the pressure.  I experienced that problem and it controls the IP pressure to a lower end.  So I suppose you could in theory set the PR to be high and then back off from that by restricting flow on the inlet.  But I don't think simply cutting back volume with a ball valve will do it.  Maybe it will.  I was experiencing vacuum pull as the flow restrictor. 

A dirty filter = ball valve in function.  Let him try it and see. 

starving the inlet does not allow te advance mechanism to operate properly tho..

and that came straight from Giles.. so i would not try to restrict the inlet, or the outlet for that matter..

the idea i had, was to JACK the pressure regulator WAY UP, and use the ball valve to be a variable size OUT bolt..
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: mtrans on September 26, 2012, 12:01:56 pm
Like this :http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=31952.msg293030#msg293030 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=31952.msg293030#msg293030)
I just must try.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on September 26, 2012, 12:11:09 pm
Like this :http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=31952.msg293030#msg293030 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=31952.msg293030#msg293030)
I just must try.

i dont think it works like that buddy..
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on September 26, 2012, 12:11:35 pm
Go ahead, try it tho.. i would LOVE to see you prove me wrong!
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: ORCoaster on September 26, 2012, 04:59:40 pm
Oh yeah, brain kicked in here.  Starving the inlet to reduce pressure does happen but then the amount of fuel is also reduced so guess what happens?  Stall or very slow mph. 

Not sure what you would be controlling with the ball valve even if the pressure was up.  Isn't the high pressure passed internally to the advance mechanism then to the overall pump body?  It has already advanced the timing before you get a read on it. 

Yeah, prove us wrong, we'd love it. 
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: mtrans on September 27, 2012, 12:01:30 pm
Man,it`s not about who is wrong I jast must try to belive.
I am not going (as I know that isn`t much) to NOT starving the inlet,as fact I`ll use almost stock CSd or KSB,it is same task as you do by lever(pull) or by electrik by cut off el.valve.
As I see only diferent is I`ll use new plate (WITHOUT el valve) and put ball valve,and connect small tube and rest.
Of corse with el. cut off valve its just ON and OFF mode,ball valve made adjustable.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on September 27, 2012, 12:18:35 pm
Man,it`s not about who is wrong I jast must try to belive.
I am not going (as I know that isn`t much) to NOT starving the inlet,as fact I`ll use almost stock CSd or KSB,it is same task as you do by lever(pull) or by electrik by cut off el.valve.
As I see only diferent is I`ll use new plate (WITHOUT el valve) and put ball valve,and connect small tube and rest.
Of corse with el. cut off valve its just ON and OFF mode,ball valve made adjustable.

im not saying you are wrong.. i just dont see how you are going to accomplish this is all..

when you pull the cold start lever, it advances the timing 6*.. only at low engine speeds tho..

internal pressure will eventually take over, and advance it past what the cold start lever will do..

sorry, but the cold start doesnt do anything in the effect of a valve..

and that valve RETARDS the timing.. it does nothing for advance.

Valve on = Retarded timing.

valve off = Normal timing.

that valve RETARDS the timing, not advances it..
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: ORCoaster on September 27, 2012, 03:26:56 pm
But what if he sets it up so that valve off equals over pressured thus over timed engine.  Say pound it down until the pressure is at 80 psi at idle for instance.  That would replace valve off = normal to be =advanced timing.  Now throw in the ball valve and slowly close it off.  Now we have less advance or maybe even normal advance and the ability to go less advance.

Am I thinking this correctly?  I see the pressure differences in the different fuels I run and I think I know why he wants this ability.  The only thing I question is flow.  Not enough fuel will reduce speed and power.  Not good at the speeds I run but might do OK at city speeds.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on September 28, 2012, 11:58:08 am
But what if he sets it up so that valve off equals over pressured thus over timed engine.  Say pound it down until the pressure is at 80 psi at idle for instance.  That would replace valve off = normal to be =advanced timing.  Now throw in the ball valve and slowly close it off.  Now we have less advance or maybe even normal advance and the ability to go less advance.

Am I thinking this correctly?  I see the pressure differences in the different fuels I run and I think I know why he wants this ability.  The only thing I question is flow.  Not enough fuel will reduce speed and power.  Not good at the speeds I run but might do OK at city speeds.

you NEVER EVER want to starve the pump inlet.. ive heard that it causes cavitation in the vane pump.. leading to erosion..
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: ORCoaster on September 28, 2012, 07:35:32 pm
Hey you're talking to a Soil Scientist bub.  You mean WEAR not EROSION.   Erosion is a soil and water thing.  Mechanical part to part with lack of lube is different. 

Just so we have our terminology straight. 

Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: mtrans on September 29, 2012, 02:06:39 am
by this http://www.dieselbombers.com/1st-generation-dodge-cummins-89-93/21942-bosch-ve-pump-operation.html#post519258 (http://www.dieselbombers.com/1st-generation-dodge-cummins-89-93/21942-bosch-ve-pump-operation.html#post519258)

114-" Once the port is uncovred the combination of KSB and slider valve will maintain an increased pump pressure keeping the timing ADVANCED.

As I see this in fact decrease pressure after piston and springand piston go more and eazy,as ColdStart cable on oposite side do but put more pressure on piston,but only up to ~ 2000 rpm,then you pull cable in cabin.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on October 01, 2012, 12:11:00 pm
Hey you're talking to a Soil Scientist bub.  You mean WEAR not EROSION.   Erosion is a soil and water thing.  Mechanical part to part with lack of lube is different. 

Just so we have our terminology straight. 



explain the blocks of 7.3 IDI engines rotting away from cavitation?

there is no mechanical metal on metal wear..

if you drip water on a rock, eventually, the water wears thru the rock.. same thing with metal..

the diesel is water, the steel is soil.. lol.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: Blocksmith on October 01, 2012, 08:08:35 pm
Cavitation and soil erosion are two veeeery different things, just saying. Cavitation deals with a solid traveling through a liquid at such high speeds that it creates a vacuum in its wake strong enough to cause a vapor bubble--like a vapor trail off an airplane wingtip, only in water instead of air. Not the same thing as water dripping onto soil or rocks over a period of days/years/millenia. Both can be very destructive, but for very different reasons.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: kevinm on October 01, 2012, 08:59:29 pm
And that concludes my thread. Thanks folks.  I am now moving on from the motor to the floor pan.. Winter is near.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on October 02, 2012, 09:47:42 am
Cavitation and soil erosion are two veeeery different things, just saying. Cavitation deals with a solid traveling through a liquid at such high speeds that it creates a vacuum in its wake strong enough to cause a vapor bubble--like a vapor trail off an airplane wingtip, only in water instead of air. Not the same thing as water dripping onto soil or rocks over a period of days/years/millenia. Both can be very destructive, but for very different reasons.

you can cut steel with water..

i rest my case...
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: ORCoaster on October 02, 2012, 11:15:00 am
I have seen that!  Pretty Awesome and Impressive.  Makes you think twice about that glass of water now doesn't it?  How many PSI?  We think our IP develop pressure.  Not even close.  

Only thing cooler is the robot lasers.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: rodpaslow on October 02, 2012, 11:21:27 am
New diesels are getting up there 20,000 psi or so...I read it somewhere.
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on October 02, 2012, 11:47:29 am
New diesels are getting up there 20,000 psi or so...I read it somewhere.

more like 30,000psi...
Title: Re: car running cooler after cetane addatives?
Post by: ORCoaster on October 02, 2012, 06:51:40 pm
Technically I would have to agree that rust is a form of erosion that water inflicts on steel as well.  So I take back my slam.  I just have a dirty mind most times.