VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: GTiTDi on September 19, 2012, 02:40:36 pm
-
I recently pulled a low miles Audi 5000 2.0 TD engine out of an otherwise junk car. I realize it is closely related to a 1.6TD except with an extra cylinder.
What I am wondering is will putting this engine in an '87 4000CS quattro be worthwhile? Will it be capable of producing enough power to make it a fun car? I know it isn't any TDI but I figure with a bit of head porting, a tweaked injection pump, an intercooler, manual boost controller, and bigger nozzles this engine could be somewhat powerful. Am I nuts? It seems that the K24 turbo that it comes with is sought after by 5000 turbo gasser people, and the one on my engine is mint.
-
Power to weight isn't quite as good as my Volvo L6, but Quattro should make up for it.
-
No one else has any input on this endeavour? Either I am so bat *** crazy that no one dare comment, Or no one has anything else to add. Guess I am on my own? ::)
-
Its not a widely tuned motor, this forum is mostly 1.6 and 1.9 engines.
POST A BUILD THREAD WHEN YOU FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING! I'm excited to hear about it!
-
i think it can easily be made to go long quite nicely install a nice intercooler, exhaust, and a giles pump. the old audis could come with a 1.6td and everyone i know who has had one said it really ran nice and was a nice car, so 25% more displacement and the better manifolds stock, it should be a fun car in awd form.
-
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-P2MUNZesmlc/UFtENdL39SI/AAAAAAAAAaA/GzRI68Xmp20/s512/IMG_0102.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EXk-WaiSk9o/UFtERw3IBbI/AAAAAAAAAaw/TNZ82ur0Q2M/s512/IMG_0117.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UHTY_54P2qA/UFtETsEVZRI/AAAAAAAAAbA/TF9RZ4xUM6w/s512/IMG_0119.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9JrOnn7KwIk/UFtEUdYoXiI/AAAAAAAAAbI/e4OK83dN8c0/s512/IMG_0120.JPG)
what better cover than a type 1 hood?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zOs1Hga2tm8/UFtEZAUDpeI/AAAAAAAAAb4/_aUoRI8FSPA/s512/IMG_0126.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-bROOaUHxaj8/UFtEcK29T4I/AAAAAAAAAcc/a86sfghZqLs/s512/IMG_0133.JPG)
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2poYPJN3yM&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2poYPJN3yM&feature=plcp)
Notice how I don't use ANY ETHER!!!! :D
-
FWIW... the 2.0L engines had oiling issues..
with 130k miles on it, its COMPLETELY POSSIBLE that its clear worn out like mine is..
-
I've only seen 2 D24Ts with under 200K, and they use the same oiling system on a bigger motor..
-
FWIW... the 2.0L engines had oiling issues..
with 130k miles on it, its COMPLETELY POSSIBLE that its clear worn out like mine is..
I think the oiling issues were more of a 2.4 D/TD 6-cyl phenomenon. I've never personally seen any gas or diesel 5 cylinder with wear issues related to oil starvation of the rear cylinders. For whatever reason, it seems the Achilles heel on the 2.0 engines is the head. It seems the swirl chambers have more issues than on the 1.6.
Yes, putting the 5-cyl TD in your 4KQ is definately a worthwhile endeavor. It's something I wish Audi would have done from the factory. Don't dis on it because it's not a TDI. TDIs are great, but that 2.0 will drive much more like a gas engine, especially as far a revability goes (which is one of the reasons why VW decided to go with IDI instead of TDI initially). It should run great coupled to that 016 tranny in your 4KQ.
And yes, the 2.0 is every bit as tunable as the 1.6 and more. Compared to the 1.6, it has larger intake valves, a better intake manifold, and a more robust block. Don't be fooled though. Even though it's only 25% more displacment than the 1.6, it will actually weigh about 50% more. Again, this is primarily because of the beefier block.
The engine you have there is 82 HP stock. In intercooled form (Canada only), the 2.0 TD put out 100 HP stock. I think 110-120HP is generally considered the limit for a mildly tuned 1.6, so a mildly tuned 2.0 ought to be in the 140-150 range.
I'm actually thinking about doing a 2.0 TD conversion into a 4K myself. (Still in the hunting/gathering stage.) Also, check out this thread http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=25252.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=25252.0) to a 100Q TD conversion I did a couple of years ago. Basically the same engine as the 2.0TD, but with bigger bore/stroke.
-
FWIW... the 2.0L engines had oiling issues..
with 130k miles on it, its COMPLETELY POSSIBLE that its clear worn out like mine is..
I think the oiling issues were more of a 2.4 D/TD 6-cyl phenomenon. I've never personally seen any gas or diesel 5 cylinder with wear issues related to oil starvation of the rear cylinders. For whatever reason, it seems the Achilles heel on the 2.0 engines is the head. It seems the swirl chambers have more issues than on the 1.6.
Yes, putting the 5-cyl TD in your 4KQ is definately a worthwhile endeavor. It's something I wish Audi would have done from the factory. Don't dis on it because it's not a TDI. TDIs are great, but that 2.0 will drive much more like a gas engine, especially as far a revability goes (which is one of the reasons why VW decided to go with IDI instead of TDI initially). It should run great coupled to that 016 tranny in your 4KQ.
And yes, the 2.0 is every bit as tunable as the 1.6 and more. Compared to the 1.6, it has larger intake valves, a better intake manifold, and a more robust block. Don't be fooled though. Even though it's only 25% more displacment than the 1.6, it will actually weigh about 50% more. Again, this is primarily because of the beefier block.
The engine you have there is 82 HP stock. In intercooled form (Canada only), the 2.0 TD put out 100 HP stock. I think 110-120HP is generally considered the limit for a mildly tuned 1.6, so a mildly tuned 2.0 ought to be in the 140-150 range.
I'm actually thinking about doing a 2.0 TD conversion into a 4K myself. (Still in the hunting/gathering stage.) Also, check out this thread http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=25252.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=25252.0) to a 100Q TD conversion I did a couple of years ago. Basically the same engine as the 2.0TD, but with bigger bore/stroke.
THIS is what I was looking to hear. :)
-
What are you looking for? The stock 4k is putting down what 110hp? Some good torque numbers with the quattro should be loads of fun regardless.
-
What are you looking for? The stock 4k is putting down what 110hp? Some good torque numbers with the quattro should be loads of fun regardless.
i think the TD5 is capable of better power numbers (for its displacement) than the 1.6..
these 5 bangers are TOUGH.. just make sure to change the oil in it..
as for the pump, they are pretty boring in stock form, but will turn almost 6000 on a stock governor..
-
I wonder if they were 10mm like the volvos?
-
I wonder if they were 10mm like the volvos?
blocks or pumps?
blocks no, they are 12mm
pumps, yes.. they are most definitely 10mm.
-
Hi,
and thanks for your shedule, as i wait for a built thread as you decribe from the first time i realise the existence of this engine.
Due to the small stroke it should rev very nice and also have the advance of a small bore in regard of head gasket strength and at least more displacement as an AAZ engine, the only weakness is that you need an AUDI to fit it in. I would realy love to put one of these engines in a golf/jetta/scirocco mk1 or mk2.
Please go on and build something really hot, best in an audi 80 coupe like this:
(http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww24/euro-styler/524%20td/ZKD%20Defekt%20-%202012/DSC_0012.jpg)
Best Regards
Alleslowbuged
P.S.
Sorry that i can not really give some helpful statement regarding this engine
-
Alleslowbuged,
I am planning on putting this in a Audi 4000 CS quattro
-
And im gonna be using an 80 Coupe (Audi Coupe GT)
-
the only weakness is that you need an AUDI to fit it in. I would realy love to put one of these engines in a golf/jetta/scirocco mk1 or mk2.
Also known as D20 in Volvo 740 , maybe 240 in some markets. Audi 5 cyl, Volvo diesel, and Porsche 944 bellhousings fit.
fits Audi = fits Fox ;D
...well almost.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TsdjySqKQlI/TQg0dcjIA3I/AAAAAAAAFlc/UgH37B6uZFA/s1600/1988%2BVolkswagen%2BFox%2BGL%2BWagon.%2B-%2B1.jpg)
-
the only weakness is that you need an AUDI to fit it in. I would realy love to put one of these engines in a golf/jetta/scirocco mk1 or mk2.
Also known as D20 in Volvo 740 , maybe 240 in some markets. Audi 5 cyl, Volvo diesel, and Porsche 944 bellhousings fit.
fits Audi = fits Fox ;D
...well almost.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TsdjySqKQlI/TQg0dcjIA3I/AAAAAAAAFlc/UgH37B6uZFA/s1600/1988%2BVolkswagen%2BFox%2BGL%2BWagon.%2B-%2B1.jpg)
porsche 924/927 AFAIK... fits the TD5.
but yes, these D20s did come in Volvo 740/240 cars in europe.. they were taxed based on engine size, thats why they didnt go with the 6 banger..
they make enough cool Audi's worthy of a diesel swap!!
how hard would it be to TD5 a fox? i do believe those cars only have an engine ba thats just barely big enough for the 4 cylinder?!
-
a longer engine in a fox bay would make an already poor handling car handle terribly! talk about understeer!
-
a longer engine in a fox bay would make an already poor handling car handle terribly! talk about understeer!
mmhmm..
plus, its not like there is enough room for a longer engine..
-
a longer engine in a fox bay would make an already poor handling car handle terribly! talk about understeer!
mmhmm..
plus, its not like there is enough room for a longer engine..
which is exactly why it isn't worth attempting...Engine bays have been lengthened ie Honda powered mini coopers...but in this case it would be a big waste! The Fox is not a nimble handling econo-sports car like a GTI or Jetta, it is just basic transport. Ur-Foxes are charming though, like my buddies' '79 Coupe. A 1.6TD w 5spd from a QUantum is destined for that car.
-
Moving the battery to the back will balance the added 4" of engine, and add room for rad relocation.
And the Quattro parts will give back some nimble.
http://www.lunaticfringe.org/vwfox/registry/029.html
-
Moving the battery to the back will balance the added 4" of engine,
We did that on my buddies '90 Fox we put an ABA into...had to modify the hood because of the height of the intake!
-
Moving the battery to the back will balance the added 4" of engine,
We did that on my buddies '90 Fox we put an ABA into...had to modify the hood because of the height of the intake!
yea, that damn huge intake manifold over the top of the engine...
and im pretty sure the TD5 is more than 4" longer.. could be wrong tho!
-
porsche 924/927 AFAIK... fits the TD5.
Must . . . resist . . . urge . . . to buy 4kTD and 924 donor cars!
But I'm with everyone else here. Tuned TD 5's are uncommon even on this specialist site, and It'd be great ground to break. You'd have great low rpm response, and your idle would be decent compared to a diesel four banger. And Giles does I5's too; one of his vids on his company site is of him getting a tuned injection pump TD5 running! The only snag I see is of finding a better turbo setup, and you may be able to lean on the gasser crowd on that font. Finally, all that plus quatro? You'd be the belle of the vwdiesel.net ball! So GO FOR IT! 8)
-
You would not be first anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_j-c8piGn4
-
You would not be first anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_j-c8piGn4
That isn't even the same engine....
I WOULD APPRECIATE EVERYONE KEEPING THIS THREAD ON SUBJECT....
No TDI's, No Fugly 924's
Audi 2.0TD tuning potential only
-
You would not be first anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_j-c8piGn4
That isn't even the same engine....
I WOULD APPRECIATE EVERYONE KEEPING THIS THREAD ON SUBJECT....
No TDI's, No Fugly 924's
Audi 2.0TD tuning potential only
A 924 will outhandle a 4k on anything but ice. I know you haven't been on this site very long but its threads can range far afield and your question about the tuning potential has already been answered.
-
If you look close, it's the same thing with a different head.
If you weren't busy getting offended, you'd also see your pump head to support 140HP stock.
-
If you look close, it's the same thing with a different head.
If you weren't busy getting offended, you'd also see your pump head to support 140HP stock.
Offended? Not the slightest. Annoyed is more accurate. I hate reading through page after page of "discussion" that has nothing to do with original thread. That is bad enough when I am researching myself, but when it occurs on a thread I start, yeah it's irksome.
-
Good enough, now all that is solved and can be put to rest.
If you have specific further questions let us know. I haven't commented as I have never touched a 5 cylinder other than the 300D mercedes and that is no where near what your engine is. I am sure if you asked something that others and I knew more of we could help in the items that cross over between the 2 engines.
-
porsche 924/927 AFAIK... fits the TD5.
Must . . . resist . . . urge . . . to buy 4kTD and 924 donor cars!
But I'm with everyone else here. Tuned TD 5's are uncommon even on this specialist site, and It'd be great ground to break. You'd have great low rpm response, and your idle would be decent compared to a diesel four banger. And Giles does I5's too; one of his vids on his company site is of him getting a tuned injection pump TD5 running! The only snag I see is of finding a better turbo setup, and you may be able to lean on the gasser crowd on that font. Finally, all that plus quatro? You'd be the belle of the vwdiesel.net ball! So GO FOR IT! 8)
well, considering the TD5 manifold comes with a T25 flange factory, i would say that the potential for turbo upgrade is GREAT..
ive been thinking of running my GT2056V on my 2.0TD.. its a T25 flange, but would need a bit of re-clocking to fit right..
if you dont want to run the stock TD manifold, or dont have one.. then the trbo gas motors had a flange SIMILAR to the T25, as well as an external wastegate..
-
porsche 924/927 AFAIK... fits the TD5.
Must . . . resist . . . urge . . . to buy 4kTD and 924 donor cars!
But I'm with everyone else here. Tuned TD 5's are uncommon even on this specialist site, and It'd be great ground to break. You'd have great low rpm response, and your idle would be decent compared to a diesel four banger. And Giles does I5's too; one of his vids on his company site is of him getting a tuned injection pump TD5 running! The only snag I see is of finding a better turbo setup, and you may be able to lean on the gasser crowd on that font. Finally, all that plus quatro? You'd be the belle of the vwdiesel.net ball! So GO FOR IT! 8)
well, considering the TD5 manifold comes with a T25 flange factory, i would say that the potential for turbo upgrade is GREAT..
ive been thinking of running my GT2056V on my 2.0TD.. its a T25 flange, but would need a bit of re-clocking to fit right..
if you dont want to run the stock TD manifold, or dont have one.. then the trbo gas motors had a flange SIMILAR to the T25, as well as an external wastegate..
Good to know! I was thinking compounds on the TD5 would be hilarious!
-
You can get any flange up to T6
http://www.034motorsport.com/fabrication-flanges-exhaust-manifold-flanges-034efi-10v-head-flange-p-313.html
-
then the trbo gas motors had a flange SIMILAR to the T25, as well as an external wastegate..
I thought we decided that the turbo gas exhaust manifold wouldn't work because the external wastegate would get in the way of the rear cam sprocket.
-
then the trbo gas motors had a flange SIMILAR to the T25, as well as an external wastegate..
I thought we decided that the turbo gas exhaust manifold wouldn't work because the external wastegate would get in the way of the rear cam sprocket.
block off plate..
unless its the MANIFOLD hitting the rear cam sprocket..
-
then the trbo gas motors had a flange SIMILAR to the T25, as well as an external wastegate..
I thought we decided that the turbo gas exhaust manifold wouldn't work because the external wastegate would get in the way of the rear cam sprocket.
block off plate..
unless its the MANIFOLD hitting the rear cam sprocket..
Yes there is definitely a clearance issue in the back..It is because of the vacuum pump location...
-
So how does this look for 129K? I will upload pics of the bearing surfaces when I get there...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2ZpnHPZo8Lc/UGhuw3jNZJI/AAAAAAAAAgY/WHTd9U_dQmY/s512/IMG_0332.JPG)
Thank god MY 2.0TD wasn't a GREASE CAR!!! It was off the road well before that concept took off..
-
If you look close, it's the same thing with a different head.
If you weren't busy getting offended, you'd also see your pump head to support 140HP stock.
140hp TDI and 140hp IDI is NOT the same fuel volume... But yeah, there is lots of headroom anyway ;)
-
TDI has 11mm pump stock, 2,0 IDI has 10mm. 2,4 5-cylinder has 8mm pump.
-
TDI has 11mm pump stock, 2,0 IDI has 10mm. 2,4 5-cylinder has 8mm pump.
Good to know....So the pump on my 2.0TD is capable of supporting some power? <200 hp or so?
-
Here's a good link to a guy who put a 2.0TD into a Vanagon Syncro. He installed some sort of oil circulation pump to resolve the oiling issue. There's a picture of it titled "Prelube Pump" down near the bottom of the page. There's a lot of useful info including how he repaired the head and used a metal head gasket from a 2.4 Eurovan Diesel. He obviously has access to a lot a machining equipment which I don't, but he appears to have made an excellent engine.
http://vanagonsyncroproject-herman.blogspot.com/2007/02/new-engine.html
-
If you look close, it's the same thing with a different head.
If you weren't busy getting offended, you'd also see your pump head to support 140HP stock.
140hp TDI and 140hp IDI is NOT the same fuel volume... But yeah, there is lots of headroom anyway ;)
and funny enough idi can do 200bhp with 9mm plunger but i have yet to see a tdi do that, i don't even know that its been done with a 10mm plunger. but i know this is due to revs and not efficiency.
-
Yep, revs is the key. Still have not seen a dyno sheet for a 200hp 9mm build?
-
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=11698.0
daves franken engine, he dynoed 195whp, which would be atleast 200bhp, t3/t4 not sure what trim compressor, i would guess a 50 or super 50 but it was a stage 3 turbine wheel with .63 a/r exhaust housing, absolutely huge, yet he managed to have over 30psi by 4k even with the small pump. i think i could live with that slow spooling setup if it pulled real sweet from 4k-6k, i drive na right now anyway whats the difference haha, especially since his off boost performance would have still been that of a 1.6 with a ported head and giles pump.
-
There was never a dyno sheet posted on that one? Just a screen shot from a no-name dyno IIRC?