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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: rs899 on September 17, 2012, 04:01:16 am
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91 Jetta Mk 2...
I can't figure out the clunking I am getting from the right front corner when doing a left hand turn or quick stop.
I have replaced EVERYTHING up front in the last 2 months , including motor mounts that were only 2 years old and probably still good.
The only thing I can think of is the flex of the rear trailing arm bushings, which are new, but the original type. I got under there last weekend and when jamming a huge screwdriver in between the subframe and the arm it flexes quite a bit, but makes no noise and the bolt is tight (just like the ones I replaced...). I don't see any signs of shiny metal where things are sliding around
When I accelerate moderately I can feel the car pulling to the right and then back left when I ease off the throttle.
I am thinking the noise may be the end of the sway bar bushing slipping as the control arm flexes.
That's all I can think of. Everything is new and tight...
It's driving me nuts.
I may go and try using the solid Audi TT bushing.
Any other ideas?
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I have used the prothane and love them, but the TDI takes the same control arm bushings as the 86 does...the MKIV bentley says to install them in a certain way. I don't know about the MK2, but maybe they are supposed to be lined up too? At any rate, did you put the entire bucket of parts to it when you did it? Struts, strut bearings, mounts, etc or did you just do the control arm bushings?
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Replaced:
Struts
Strut Mounts
Ball Joints
Control Arm Bushings
Sway Bar bushings ( outer only)
Outer Tie Rod Ends
Motor mounts ( front and right rear)
even changed axles....
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Do the inner sway bar bushings look gone or is there something there? That or something loose is the only thing I can think of would be doing that. Unless the new CV are bad on the right side. I guess one other thing is the steering rack could be loose, but I would think that would be noticable all the time.
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Do the inner sway bar bushings look gone or is there something there?
They are there, but are a bit soft. I have a set, but I haven't figured out how they go in. I suppose hold the car up with a jack stand behind. Jack under the subframe . Loosen the two bolts on that side and let the engine hang. Stuff the bushing in?
I don't think they are that bad to do this. They are physically all there and not crumbling or anything.
Can't find anything loose. There was one "ah ha" yesterday...the right front strut top nut thing was loose ( the little slotted dude under the big retainer plate), but that didn't fix the clunk.
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I don't know how touchy the bearings are in those strut mounts. I guess do you have a video of it happening? Need to hear the noise to understand more...you have covered everything I would so I am at a loss.
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I might try an audio, but I think engine noise will probably drown it out. Nothing to see ....hmmm lash a camera down there....
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just noticed you said it is pulling, something is loose. I would say the bolt holding your rear control arm bushing is not tight. It is a touchy deal as the captive nut can strip, maybe that is what yours is doing. Just holding on enough to make the noise, but not appear loose. VW instead of putting an actual good quality hardened nut up there made it longer than normal and the fix for the first go around is their longer bolt. The next time you have to cut a piece of pie out of that rail and weld in a new hardened nut. I put a removable stud in mine as I didn't want the dealers bolt.
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I would say the bolt holding your rear control arm bushing is not tight.
That's what I was looking for this weekend, but I really don't think so. I probably have 60+ foot pounds of torque on it and when I take a 2 foot long screwdriver to it, I can't get it to slide. There doesn't seem to be any marks to show it has been sliding. However, the rubber does shift around quite a lot when you load/unload it front/back as you would expect in a brake. But no noise...
What do you mean by removable stud? I really don't want to think about stripping that nut...
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How are your steering rack bushings?
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When I accelerate moderately I can feel the car pulling to the right and then back left when I ease off the throttle.
That is caused by the passenger side front control arm to frame bushing or possibly the welded in stud/bolt has broken its weld.
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It won't take 60ft/lbs. Bentley has it something stupid low like 18ft/lbs. I bet you stripped it. Take it out and see if there are threads on the bolt or something. This is exactly what I did and it does not handle that torque. Mine the bolt actually fell out and I saw no evidence of anything as far as scratches or messed up paint. If it isn't stripped you are lucky, but I would be looking there.
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I guess I will look at that. They sure took at least that much (60 ft pounds) to get out as well as a couple I removed in junkyards to get spare bolts and sleeves.
I may be doing this... yuk
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4129890-Access-to-rear-bolts-of-front-subframe
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OK, I confess, I don't have the Mk2 Bentley
According to someone in this thread...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5609954-Rear-Control-Arm-Bolt
the torque is supposed to be this...
First, the rear bolt, is in fact, a stretch bolt. The tq spec is 52ft/lbs +90*.
I am sure it has torque approximating this. Now I am afraid to do anything.
When you are driving, it really feels like it is sliding around but I would think I would be able to lever it with the pry bar I have. If I tighten more, I risk stripping it. If I loosen and nothing is obviously wrong, then what?
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im wondering if we have the same thing going on and i have driven the car allot like this but now want to sell it and get to the bottom of it. does it feel like the whole front end jolts when hitting the pedal and letting off suddenly? like something is slipping.
i got no clue all my stuff was new as well, even wheel bearings and got alignment, etc.
the only thing i was thinking is the rear control arm bushing new style that didn't have a collar like the original piece i took off. my parts dealer told me that is the new style and i just complied after asking around and torquing it. so less a collar and orientation on the new stuff vs. original
bently says 96ft. lbs of torque on that bolt. also should clean off the bolts it says old ones might have wax that effect torque.
somebody said steering rack bushings, i must admit i tinkered while in there but did not blindly replace those. would this transmit this clunking through the drivetrain like that? i never get any wierd shimmy or clunk through the steering wheel?
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I don't think it's the steering. Anyway, mine is tight.
It FEELS like that rear lower control bushing is the problem. I started digging in from the floor down this evening, but it started raining. I am tempted to give that bolt the proper torque- don't think its at 96 foot pounds.
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I would have to look in my bentley and it has been 3 years since I did it, but I swear it was under 50ft lbs. Mine definately didn't say anything about one time use either...hmmm.
Anyway, I would at least look at that part closer. I would tread very lightly on it, but loosen it up and see if it was grabbing ahold. If it is, what is the noise??? This has me confused.
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When I accelerate moderately I can feel the car pulling to the right and then back left when I ease off the throttle.
That is caused by the passenger side front control arm to frame bushing or possibly the welded in stud/bolt has broken its weld.
You know I got that backwards. It would be the driver's side control arm bushing or bolt, not the pass side.
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http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v44/kellyass/?action=view¤t=Untitled-1.jpg
now that i think back i degreased and wire wheeled my bolts but i doubt that i put that much torque on them. mainly because i was paranoid after reading about people stripping those out and having to repair from above. i will check mine and see what the wrench says.
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I would have to look in my bentley and it has been 3 years since I did it, but I swear it was under 50ft lbs. Mine definately didn't say anything about one time use either...hmmm.
Anyway, I would at least look at that part closer. I would tread very lightly on it, but loosen it up and see if it was grabbing ahold. If it is, what is the noise??? This has me confused
It's a fairly distinct "pop" when braking or sometimes accelerating, usually in combo with a left hand turn. The noise is coming from the pass side lower foot area.
The pirated and widely distributed Haynes lists its torque at 96 ft pounds. The outer sway bar end bolt is 18 ft pounds- maybe that's what you were thinking , "man"?
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The front wheels pull the body under power. Because of this, if there is any play between the suspension and the body, the front wheel with play will move forward relative the body under load and move back when the power is removed. The driver's side tire moving forward will cause it to pull to the right under power and the passenger side moving will cause it to pull to the left. I'm sorry that I worded that wrong previously. You may have two separate issue, the clunk and the pull, but I will staunchly state that if it pulls to the right under power, then the issue of excess movement in the suspension must be on the driver's side. I'm also happy to be wrong about it. ;D
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I guess I am going to cross my fingers and torque them to 96 ft pounds . I can imagine that the tack welds may not stand for that.
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Update-
Cranked the rear lower control arm bolts on both sides to 96 ft lbs. Nothing popped or gave way that I could tell.
Passenger side is still popping on moderate acceleration- braking doesn't seem to set it off.
I think I got rid of most of the pulling on acceleration.
Next weekend I think I will replace the right LCA with a new one I have and see if I find any issues while I am doing it. I am running out of other ideas.
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Out of curiosity, is there a reason I see many people changing just the tie rod ends? I've always changed the entire thing... do the inners rarely go bad?
What year Audi TT are you looking at for the solid bushings?
-Todd
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This is the solid bushing for Audi TT/VW R32:
http://www.fcpeuro.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=8n0407181b
I already have a pair of new Deeza LCAs with new original bushings and ball joints, so I am going to use them and hope I discover something I missed on the right side the first time I did this.
As for tie rod ends, I think the outers wear a lot faster than the inners. The test of the inners is supposed to be if you can disconnect the outer and gravity keeps the end up, but I have reused sets that failed this but still had no discernable slop.
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if it pulls based on throttle, then you got a bushing or bolt loose somewhere..
tie rods or ends maybe?
when my Jetta was MISSING the rear a-arm bolt, it did the same thing..
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I think I fixed the pulling/squirreliness on throttle by torquing the LCAs per spec.
But I get a "pop" about a quarter second off the line'
The outer tie rods are new- the inners are about a year old.
Still gonna change the right LCA tomorrow. I hope I find something...
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The rubber bump stops on the top of the strut towers forever made noise. OEM used. New Chinese. New German... always make noises all the time. Driving over bumps. Turning the steering wheel...
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Another wasted weekend chasing the devil.
Replaced right LCA with a new Deeza that includes new bushings.
No change- still pops on moderate acceleration about 1/4 second after throttle applied.
Swapped right side axle back to what I had earlier- nada- still pops
Just for the hell of it, I might swap struts side to side, but I don't feel anything unusual in the right hand strut bearing ( which is German Febi and about 4 months old).
When I removed the old LCA (which I had pressed a new bushing into) I did notice a bit of shiny metal on top and correspondingly on the top surface of the pocket on the subframe. But, it's really faint. The next thing I guess I need to try is to use an Audi TT/R32 bushing.
The sound ("pop") just doesn't seem to correspond to the visual, but, for the life of me , I can't dope it out...why only one side? Why didn't it happen before on the old worn out bushings?
I feel like giving up and taking this to a pro...but seems like another way to waste money.
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Another wasted weekend chasing the devil.
Replaced right LCA with a new Deeza that includes new bushings.
No change- still pops on moderate acceleration about 1/4 second after throttle applied.
Swapped right side axle back to what I had earlier- nada- still pops
Just for the hell of it, I might swap struts side to side, but I don't feel anything unusual in the right hand strut bearing ( which is German Febi and about 4 months old).
When I removed the old LCA (which I had pressed a new bushing into) I did notice a bit of shiny metal on top and correspondingly on the top surface of the pocket on the subframe. But, it's really faint. The next thing I guess I need to try is to use an Audi TT/R32 bushing.
The sound ("pop") just doesn't seem to correspond to the visual, but, for the life of me , I can't dope it out...why only one side? Why didn't it happen before on the old worn out bushings?
I feel like giving up and taking this to a pro...but seems like another way to waste money.
tighten the control arm bolts tighter
and the sub frame bolts..
like tighter than you think it needs to be..
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tighten the control arm bolts tighter
and the sub frame bolts..
like tighter than you think it needs to be..
HAHA- no. They already are.
I think this must be what's going on...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YNoNIYqw8Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j44jaJKSpBw&feature=related
these are not my vids, BTW.
I can see some signs of metal contact on top of the arm and in the pocket. It just doesn't sound like a little bump.
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my Jetta used to clunk every time i would accel or stop..
the rear control arm bolt was TIGHT.. but i tightened it more, and its never clunked again..
like, i put my big rattle gun on it, and tightened it till it wouldnt turn any farther..
the bolt was tight.. just not tight enough..
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I just went to look mine over and didn't get far because I noticed my drivers side control arm is riding halfway down the bushing. Hmm don't recall it being like that last time I was under the car. This is with those solid rubber bushings they sell. I am going to check my torque but I wonder if just one side could be whats going on with mine.
Also I pulled out what I assumed were original vw bushings, didn't notice obvious damage to the arms.
I guess I don't have any choice but to replace all the control arms then?
Does anybody know if these kits require the original vw type bushing or do you just press them in and go?
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=onefi2nmohk0l4zye250fm45&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1282788@JETTA%20DELUXE&year=1985&cid=control%20arm@control%20arm&gid=10401@Control%20Arm
Sucks for me, I am actually going to get rid of this car but I don't want to do that to the new owner.
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Those look like they have the bushings already. Rock Auto had a bunch of them with bushings and ball joints for $17 each.
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Those look like they have the bushings already. Rock Auto had a bunch of them with bushings and ball joints for $17 each.
I should have specified, I meant the metal bushing collar. I emailed them and this is their reply and I cannot say its anything I have ever seen mentioned in my searches thus far? My jetta is an 85 not sure if this could apply to your car? I won't get a chance to measure mine for another week but I am wondering if this even makes sense, I am going from memory but I'm not sure if the upgraded bushing even has enough room to slide in one of those original collars. Or maybe the collar they are also selling compensates and fits into the smaller bushing and taking up that much more room on a smaller bolt?
Here is a copy and paste of their reply:
Thank you for submitting your part inquiry with AutohausAZ. Whether or not you would need to use the spacer part number 191 407 190A with control arm part number 191 407 151B is not a matter of the control arm design. It is actually matter of the vehicle design. Volksagen used the 191 407 151B control arms from 1985 through 1992 on the Golf, Jetta, and Corrado models. But at some point changed the bolts used to mount the control arm at the rear bushing.
If your vehicle uses an M15 (15mm diameter) bolt to mount the control arm at the rear bushing, the spacer sleeve part number 191 407 190A would still be required. However, if you vehicles uses an M17 (17mm diameter) bolt, you would not need to use the spacer sleeve.
Hopefully this information explains the need of the spacer sleeve. Please let us know if you have any further questions.
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^^ Well, there's no room in the later solid rubber LCA bushings for the collar. Might be nice to figure out a way to bush the bolt where it goes through the solid bushing, but I didn't ( and evidently , most folks don't)
Finally got the new solid rubber in and the problem is gone. No clunking and nice smooth steady acceleration under power. I really can't say for certain that it was the flexibility of the old style bushing, or perhaps I unconsciously tightened the living crap out of the bolt. Technically they are at 96 ft pounds per the torque wrench, but I may have given it an extra tug.
So, another somewhat unsolved mystery. The old , old, ol (I replaced them 2.5 times trying to fix this) LCA bushings were original and pretty rotten, yet the car did not clunk or handle all that badly, until I made the mistake of changing them.
Now, I noticed one of my front wheel bearings is pretty tight. I think I had better do something about that soon. It never seems to end....
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^^ Well, there's no room in the later solid rubber LCA bushings for the collar. Might be nice to figure out a way to bush the bolt where it goes through the solid bushing, but I didn't ( and evidently , most folks don't)
Finally got the new solid rubber in and the problem is gone. No clunking and nice smooth steady acceleration under power. I really can't say for certain that it was the flexibility of the old style bushing, or perhaps I unconsciously tightened the living crap out of the bolt. Technically they are at 96 ft pounds per the torque wrench, but I may have given it an extra tug.
So, another somewhat unsolved mystery. The old , old, ol (I replaced them 2.5 times trying to fix this) LCA bushings were original and pretty rotten, yet the car did not clunk or handle all that badly, until I made the mistake of changing them.
Now, I noticed one of my front wheel bearings is pretty tight. I think I had better do something about that soon. It never seems to end....
i told you that TIGHT might not be tight enough..
had my Jetta clunk when the bolt was over 100ft lbs..
that bolt is probably closer to 200 ft lbs now, and no clunk..
the inside of my bushing wore a bit, so i made a bushing to fit around the bolt shank, and take up the space between the inner bushing, and the bolt shank..
if i ever change out my bushings, im going with plastic.. i dont care if they ride harsh, and idle rough, because they last forever..
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just wanted to update as i tended to my 85 jetta that i am going to sell when i finish my truck. i decided to strart fresh with stock type control arms with bushings installed and used the collars. right now the car is driving with none of that clunking. and as soon as i took the old ones off i pushed the drivers side bushing out by hand!(upgrade type without collar)
so i had this experience and one with my first mk1 and from now on i start fresh with new arms on these cars. the bushings sure seemed to press in with force.
i had done my best to clean the bolts, etc. and torque. this setup is almost a couple years old so i have been driving around with those clunks that long.
also to my horror i found that not only was the passenger side rear control arm bolt missing, but was broken off inside the captive nut! had to cut access hole bigger and peel floor back. ended up putting new bolt and thick washers to shim flush with floor and then used 3 nuts, tightened a bit then tack welded everywhere i could then dumped wax back on top and tacked the floor back down.
that bolt was there last oil change, when im underneath i always check those. so i have to assume too much gunk or the close to book torque wasn't good enough and things were bouncing around and tore the bolt apart. that sides bushing doesn't seem to have moved at all though.
i have been pounding the car all week and there isn't a hint of clunking upfront or that shifting of power feeling when on/off the gas.
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f* the haynes manual,
the rca bushings in a mk2 (stock) go in a certain way, pass reverse of drivers, you need a bentley to show you the right way, they have 'kidneys'. that most likely was your problem. if you put in wrong (also same way;drivers/pass)they will fail; most likely quite soon.
also the shop manual has front roll bar bushings at 18lbs-ft, better is to tighten so bushings wont 'crush'; esp important for urethane bushs
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^^ you talkin' to ME? If so, no I had installed the replacement OEM LCA bushing per the Bentley, with the proper orientation. Just either didn't torque the bolts enough (though I did that per the good book) OR the collars/insrets weren't seated properly..or something.
All is well now. Except the front wheel bearing that I was complaining about earlier has been replaced, and its replacement is making noise...it never ends.