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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: EcoTX on September 02, 2012, 10:23:57 am
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So I'm tearing down this motor out of a Rabbit I bought for parts.
Guy said he was driving it on 100% Biodiesel and now it has no compression in the cylinders.
I ran compression test and all were under 150 psi, the numbers were worse going through cylinders 1-2-3-4.
Here's some pictures...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny05.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny04.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny01.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny02.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny03.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny07.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny09.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny10.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny11.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny12.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny13.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny14.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny15.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny16.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny26.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny28.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny27.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny29.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny34.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny36.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny37.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny40.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny41.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny42.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny43.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny32.jpg)
Well that's all I got so far...
The valve cover was glued on with RTV. Had to pry it off with a bunch of screwdrivers.
I can still see the VW/Audi logo on the bottom of the head so that means it hasn't been shaved.
THICK NASTY SLUDGE all in the head... ???
I'm about to go scotch brite some more and pull the pistons to check them and the rings.
There is NO RIDGE on any of the bores, bore 2 is the best looking.
The rest just kind of get rough as you go up into all the polymerized crap I haven't scrubbed off yet.
I tried to get good pics of it all.
I think this thing just got all polymerized, blew the headgasket, coked up rings, etc and just needs to be cleaned out real nice.
One of the bolt holes in the block is stripped too I think but haven't confirmed. I'll get a pic of that later.
I don't see valve damage (which is originally what I thought might be the problem), but will probably take apart and clean the head out real good and check it out as well later.
What's it lookin like to yall? I'll have more pictures later of what I find.
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got real freeken hot... look at the verticle cylender scoring... the between 2 and 3 on head gasket also looks blown...
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Man that's nasty lookin :o
I don't know if this engine had oil squirters but if it does, they are probably filled with blue stuff not to mention other small oil passages.
I read somewhere that Bio is "clean"?
Good luck on the rebuild
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I would guess that non-diesel spec oil was used for a very long time resulting in the sludge in the valve cover area and sticking of the rings. With the rings sticking, the compression went in the toilet and deposits formed in the cylinders. I also imagine some over-heating was involved. None of that is was by biodiesel.
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I agree that bio diesel did not cause this to happen, how could it? There is no "soot" in bio diesel from what I understand.
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Is that oil in the valley? or axle grease put there in an attempt to hush the valves?
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Was it bio or WVO? A lot of people don't know the difference and use the two interchangeably.
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got real freeken hot... look at the verticle cylender scoring... the between 2 and 3 on head gasket also looks blown...
Overheat...possibly, but not severe.
The head is still flat and not even a hairline crack between the valves!
I don't know if this engine had oil squirters but if it does, they are probably filled with blue stuff not to mention other small oil passages.
1989 Hydraulic ME block.
I read somewhere that Bio is "clean"?
None of that is was by biodiesel.
I agree that bio diesel did not cause this to happen, how could it? There is no "soot" in bio diesel from what I understand.
The way I see it is this guy was definitely running some other crap through this thing that was NOT #2 ULSD.
He says "100% Biodiesel", well it's Austin and there are a few biodiesel options so I don't have complete reason to doubt it.
This engine bay reeks of rank vegetable oil.
Perhaps he was running WVO or SVO or crappy made homebrew stuff he was cooking up in his bathtub I don't know...
I think whatever stuff this guy was running was mixing in with his oil big time.
That and/or combustion gasses through a compromised head gasket perhaps.
The oil was so sludged up I got out of it, the bottom layer of crap is like an inch deep and that was just sitting a few minutes. I can't wait to get the pan off and really see more.
Is that oil in the valley? or axle grease put there in an attempt to hush the valves?
You know, it definitely has the consistency of grease, it could be grease!
Never heard of that trick...
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I also found a crack in an odd location on the head.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny60.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny58.jpg)
??? ???
The bores are cleaning up very nicely.
I'm hoping a light ball hone is all they will need to fit standard rings as it sure does look and feel that way.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny45.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny53.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny46.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny47.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny55.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/GreenDiesel/greeny56.jpg)
I can't pull the pan and get the cylinders out until Tuesday since I don't have a 1/4" drive 10mm swivel socket to get those 2 bolts out on the trans side.
When did they go to the trans cover that was removable and gave you more room to get those suckers out? My AVX has a removable bottom plate there to easier access those two PITA's.
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There's no way I'd run that head without at least having it pressure tested.
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I may have skipped over this in reading but how many miles on the engine? How long was it sitting? What kind of oil change intervals was the PO running? Looks like it's cleaning up ok. What's up with the vc gaskets made from rtv? I've never had a problem with leaky vc gaskets after I changed to the rubber one.
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There's no way I'd run that head without at least having it pressure tested.
Point taken.
I may have skipped over this in reading but how many miles on the engine? How long was it sitting? What kind of oil change intervals was the PO running? Looks like it's cleaning up ok. What's up with the vc gaskets made from rtv? I've never had a problem with leaky vc gaskets after I changed to the rubber one.
This is an 89 engine that was thrown in a 82 Rabbit I bought for parts. No clue how long it sat or oil change intervals.
Previous owner say'd like 79,000 or 89,000 for mileage, something under 100k, but don't they all say that...
My 84 Rabbit had a definite ridge you could catch a fingernail on, but it still made 400+ PSI after getting it back together so that gives me high hopes for this block.
Maybe it hasn't been abused too long for everything to get out of tolerance.
I really wish I knew WTF was up with that RTV glued on vc, that was so asinine.
Tomorrow I'll just be checking piston protrusion and maybe dig into the head.
I have a turbo pump I need to get back together as well the next day or two.
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Those vertical scratches don't come from running really cool. It got hot. FWIW the cracks between valves don't always result from high heat.
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The oil was so sludged up I got out of it, the bottom layer of crap is like an inch deep and that was just sitting a few minutes. I can't wait to get the pan off and really see more.
Getting a thick sludge of polymerized crud at the bottom of the oil pan when running B100 and especially vegetable oil in a already low compression motor is really common. Neither fuel flashes on the cylinder wall they way diesel does and it gets into the pan. The PO really should have always changed the oil at 3000 miles or less. i wouldn't run veg oil at any mix in a VW motor with compression less than 400 lbs in all 4 cylinders.
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Getting a thick sludge of polymerized crud at the bottom of the oil pan when running B100 and especially vegetable oil in a already low compression motor is really common. Neither fuel flashes on the cylinder wall they way diesel does and it gets into the pan. The PO really should have always changed the oil at 3000 miles or less. i wouldn't run veg oil at any mix in a VW motor with compression less than 400 lbs in all 4 cylinders.
Thank you for posting this, it definitely confirms what I'm finding so far.
I wish I knew how many miles the guy got out of this thing before it just gave it up.
Was it bio or WVO? A lot of people don't know the difference and use the two interchangeably.
It was definitely biodiesel, he had clear lines running and the fuel was light yellow like vegetable oil.
I dribbled a bit on my fingers from the filter and it definitely had that greasy, vegetable oil smell to it.
Felt a lot more filmy and oily than diesel too.
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Those vertical scratches don't come from running really cool. It got hot. FWIW the cracks between valves don't always result from high heat.
that looks just like the bores of my Jetta engine, and i heat seized it going up a hill @ 100mph..
temp gauge didnt even budge from half way..
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Those vertical scratches don't come from running really cool. It got hot. FWIW the cracks between valves don't always result from high heat.
that looks just like the bores of my Jetta engine, and i heat seized it going up a hill @ 100mph..
temp gauge didnt even budge from half way..
Yes the vertical scratches and bore condition looks much worse in the first set of pictures, but after some light scotch brite action, most have come right out as evidenced in the second set of pictures.
Like I said the bores feel extremely smooth with no ridge, those scratches are not wore into the cylinder bores.
I think 90% of the imperfections you see in the bores will come out with a ball hone, at least, that's what I'm hoping.
This is my first venture into the block of one of these, and this being a cheap "not running" parts motor, I'm not too concerned with its fate.
I have seen a few sets of bores on these though, and this is the first block that has no ridge on the cylinders.
That to me is a good sign of the condition of the block so far, especially with factory pistons still installed.
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Was it bio or WVO? A lot of people don't know the difference and use the two interchangeably.
It was definitely biodiesel, he had clear lines running and the fuel was light yellow like vegetable oil.
I dribbled a bit on my fingers from the filter and it definitely had that greasy, vegetable oil smell to it.
Felt a lot more filmy and oily than diesel too.
I think it still could be veggie oil. Biodiesel is completely different. Yes, its made from oil, but its chemically changed to be more similar to diesel. Shouldn't really be greasy or oily feeling.
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Was it bio or WVO? A lot of people don't know the difference and use the two interchangeably.
It was definitely biodiesel, he had clear lines running and the fuel was light yellow like vegetable oil.
I dribbled a bit on my fingers from the filter and it definitely had that greasy, vegetable oil smell to it.
Felt a lot more filmy and oily than diesel too.
I think it still could be veggie oil. Biodiesel is completely different. Yes, its made from oil, but its chemically changed to be more similar to diesel. Shouldn't really be greasy or oily feeling.
You may be right.
When I made the topic I put "100% Biodiesel use" in quotes on purpose as sort of tongue-in-cheek.
I'm not trying to bash biodiesel here or anything, just tearing down a motor that the owner said he ran 100% biodiesel in all the time.
That's all I have to go on and it's really just speculation what fuel he was actually running.
I'm not 100% familiar with the differences between biodiesel and D2, so I shouldn't have said it's definitely biodiesel.
It didn't have a two tank set-up when I bought it, and surely this guy wasn't stupid enough to just be pouring WVO into his tank.
Maybe he was mixing in SVO he bought at the store in an effort to be "green"?
I'm going to pop the top off the injector pump and see if it looks all nasty too.
I got some good pics coming later.
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It could also potentially be bad biodiesel, as in not prepared correctly/well. But who knows. I haven't been around B100 in a couple years either so I may be misremembering things. But I don't recall it being greasy.
Bio will eat up seals and things, but if that's sludge, it shouldn't cause that. I bet what happened had little to nothing to do with the fuel used, as long as it was quality fuel.
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i spent 2 yrs happily chugging around in a merc 190 d 2.5 running on wvo. I filtered it to 2 microns and all was right with the world( apart from the smell :-X) did 100k miles. I would have kept it if it had a turbo but alas not in the UK!!
No problems at all but my friend with a vauxhall cavalier with the 1.7 td isuzu, well that was a different story. multiple head cracks etc but we only gave £50 for it and it lasted 18 months.
The problem with yours is not fuel, it was badly maintained.
Cheers
nathan
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Looking at those pics I wonder if it isn't the effect of the fuel on the gunk in the engine before he started to run "alternative fuels". Doesn't Biodiesel and WVO have the ability to remove the diesel crud buildup? Just wondering not stating a fact.
With only a one tank system you would hope the PO was running BioD and not dumping the SVO or WVO in there. But you know, anything is possible. I see ads for diesel cars all the time that say they are WVO ready and yet they only have one tank on there. I run all three types of fuels, D, BioD and WVO in my car and have the heated two tank system. I still run a alot of black oil through it and change the oil every 3000 miles so I can't say any of them is dirtier that the rest. Soot is going to be made, oil is meant to capture it. Seems to be working. Maybe I need a Frantz filter to test any theory I have.
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If you already have bad blowby, and don't change your oil, running veg fuels, you can get polymerized buildup, and you can recognize it by its non'removability.
Like doesn't come off in the hot tank bad. if on the other hand its some kind of moly or grease,you will be able to create a clean spot using nothing but a rag.
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Ok last update for awhile since I have to go back to work tomorrow.
This is the piston protrusion checker me and my dad put our heads together on.
He had the aluminum and bolts, and I came up with the indicator and spare pump part.
Works great! Has a full 3-3.5mm of readability which is plenty for this purpose.
I want to improve it to use head bolts that thread in so it doesn't have to be a 2 person job nearly.
For as little time it takes to turn over TDC, we get accurate and consistent readings with it.
Our measurements indicated a 1 notch head gasket was needed, since there was no projection over 0.86mm.
We will measure again after it's all back together and double check before ordering.
It had a 3 notch gasket installed which looked fairly new. Still had the blue tacky sealer around the edge in some spots.
(http://i.imgbox.com/adpznCXa.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/admMvUjF.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/aclXsDxz.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/adceRi3l.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/aboXpSq5.jpg)
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Here's the oil pan and pump screen completely sludged up...
(http://i.imgbox.com/abkAm4DA.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/acs9ecRm.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/accjwsIL.jpg)
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I then stamped everything and removed the pistons. Sure enough, pistons 3 and 4 were the worst. Piston 2 was the only one with all 3 rings still loose in the grooves.
Got the old rings out and gave the pistons a light washing then cleaned the oil pump out real good.
Also got a shot of #1 and #4 rod journals. The rod bearings and journals all look and feel fine, looks like most of the damage is in the pistons and rings.
(http://i.imgbox.com/abs5VlqX.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/adftXite.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/adt5jGzp.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/acf923Lh.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/adxQJAC4.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/abmZt48D.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/adeuHI9t.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/abrIZBBe.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/acuMK2fE.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/adtywphe.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/adiKw2a9.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/acqqADoM.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/acjEGAl2.jpg)
(http://i.imgbox.com/acrmcHws.jpg)
This being a project motor more than anything, I'm just going to hone, re-ring, and get the right headgasket for it.
I'll be in this build right around 100 bucks back up and running with good compression I'm hoping.
I need to figure out what I'm going to do with it if it has good compression next.
More than likely turbo...
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Our measurements indicated a 1 notch head gasket was needed, since there was no projection over 0.86mm.
We will measure again after it's all back together and double check before ordering.
It had a 3 notch gasket installed which looked fairly new.
That might explain some low compression and deposits, or indicate a set of bent rods.
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That sludge looks like water/coolant got in there to me, lots of it too.
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Thanks for the pics. Thankfully I've never seen sludge before. Looks nasty.
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Mine looked like that when the precup broke through the water jacket in the head, flooding the crankcase with coolant.
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The polymerized crud from vegetable oil that i have seen is brownish, thick and a little rubbery. Biodiesel doesn't usually coke the rings up that badly but vegetable oil does.
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I am surprised you guys don't recognize the problem from the pics. The primary problem is the leaking head gasket. Plain as day. All of that red rust in the pics is caused by acids formed when combustion products mix with water. This motor also sat with water in the cylinders for a while. That is why the bores are rusty. That kind of slime comes from antifreeze mixing with the oil. It is mainly the additives that come out of suspension when mixed with ethylene glycol. The WVO he was running didn't help either. FYI BD is not oily or greasy feeling, nor does it have a greasy smell. It also does not cause the tacky build up described that is hell to get off thing. That is the glycerin which is absent from BD. BTW biodiesel gets that stuff off really well.
This thing got so hot it likely would not run any more, hence the scored pistons and walls. It is also why the rings were broken and stuck in the ring grooves. Not a problem to remove if you heat the pistons in the oven and are gentle prying them out. Glass bead the pistons after sanding out the big scratches, paying special attention to the crap hiding in the bottom of the ring grooves. DO NOT scrape the ring grooves with a broken ring. If you scar the ring land the motor will always be a bit low on compression and burn oil.
Ball hone the bores after reaming the ridges and you should be fine so long as the ring grooves aren't too bad and the bore isn't too oval.
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Mine looked like that when the precup broke through the water jacket in the head, flooding the crankcase with coolant.
yep, I agree toby.
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How are you coming on this project? Did you bead blast the pistons as suggested? Are you back up running? Love to see more pix.
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How are you coming on this project? Did you bead blast the pistons as suggested? Are you back up running? Love to see more pix.
It is still on the back-burner right now, the motor/car is not very close to where I live currently so I can't work on it.
I did get the pistons blasted, but that was about it.
I got a good, used hydraulic head off eBay for it too since I found a crack in the one on it.
I bought a dial-bore gauge to check the cylinders.
I have also sourced every TD specific piece needed so it will 100% be getting a turbo put on.
I just started a new job this year and am finally settling down a little bit, so will have a lot more time to build some turbo-diesel machines hopefully in the near future.
I have amassed enough OEM TD parts to fully turbo 3 cars.
The long-term plan is turbo my daily 84 Rabbit very soon, turbo another Rabbit project (this motor) and eventually sell it, and turbo another MK1 motor and probably sell it as well.
I would love to get all that done this year!
February is going to be spent mostly on giving my daily drivers a little love.
USRT shift kit for the Jetta, and complete suspension overhaul (OEM) for the Rabbit and maybe a turbo put on too if I can budget the time and money.
I will make a thread on turbo'ing the 84 Rabbit if I do. I am very interested in finding out the mileage I can get out of that 4A transmission with a turbo strapped on. :)
I am either lining up a storage place to rent and work on it, or talk this guy I'm living with into using some of his space here.
Regards,
-Troy