VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: RamcoNorris on August 29, 2012, 02:00:50 pm
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Thought I would introduce myself, my car and get the forums opinion. I've had my '78 Rabbit for about a year now and am in need of more power. The 1.6na just isn't cutting it, takes forever to get to freeway speed and I'm holding up a lot of people. Found a complete AAZ up in Vancouver, BC so drove up there and brought it down (along with half of the donor car in misc parts).
My question to those with more knowledge than myself is this: run the engine or rebuild it first.
The engine looks great from the outside; no rust, very little grim, lines/hoses look great. I realize this doesn't tell me whats going on inside but at least its not trashed. I have the cluster from the donor car that if I can figure out how to power it I'll know its mileage.
My thought is to run it as is for now, start acquiring parts and rebuild in the winter or next year. I don't plan on running the engine hard, just to work and home is about it. Plus it will sit this winter when I'll be using my A4 for winter duty.
Any advise would be greatly appreciated. This site looks to be full of useful info. I'm pretty good with forum search functions but I'm sure I'll have questions down the road.
Thanks,
Chris
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Find out how many miles are on it. If your still concerned hook it up to a hose and a can of fuel and start it in your driveway and see how it runs.
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Ditto on starting it up before you put it in.
That way, you still have use of your Rabbit while you are learning harness quirks; see if you can get the cluster fully functional out in the driveway, not upside down under a dashboard! Seeing / hearing it run *before* you drop it in will save you a lot of aggravation and lost labor if the engine has some lurking issue. Have the oil analyzed if it hasn't been changed recently, it can tell you what's worn inside. Otherwise, best of luck on the swap, wish I had a loose AAZ to play with myself!
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Regarding starting an engine sitting on the driveway, do you do it without coolant? How long can you run it w/o damage? 5 sec? 30 sec? 60 sec?
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I've got it on an engine stand right now in the garage. I'll have to locate or buy a hoist again so I can take it down and connect the starter. It was really fun getting the engine out of the back of the Rabbit, on the stand and then back to my garage. Had to do this at a friends house, then trailer the engine on stand back to my place.
Is there much worry about the crank nose failing if it isn't driven hard or is this a time bomb waiting no matter what?
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Regarding starting an engine sitting on the driveway, do you do it without coolant? How long can you run it w/o damage? 5 sec? 30 sec? 60 sec?
From my understanding, you run a hose to your water piping and hook up a battery to your starter. Not sure how long you'd want to run it like this but I'd imagine if you have a constant flow of water/gas you'd be alright for a short run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XT7c-O9TIU&feature=player_embedded
This does look terrible though. Not sure I'd just let it flop around. :-\
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After watching that video, I withdraw my suggestion. Wonder if he got it to roll all the way down the driveway...
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At the very least, I'd check compression.
WOw - so you transported the engine and other bits in the Rabbit?
You've got what it takes to swap the engine I'd say ;D
GO for it.
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Here's some good reading for you;
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=20551.0
Have fun, take lots of pictures... we live for this kind of stuff!
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At the very least, I'd check compression.
WOw - so you transported the engine and other bits in the Rabbit?
You've got what it takes to swap the engine I'd say ;D
GO for it.
I think there was about a 1/8 inch on top and bottom of the engine getting it in the rear of the car. Wish I had taken pictures of how crammed the car was. Customs just shock their head at the border when they saw me rolling through.
As for compression I agree that it is a must do. Just need to find a good tester that isn't a million bucks.
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Here's some good reading for you;
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=20551.0
Have fun, take lots of pictures... we live for this kind of stuff!
Thanks, this I looked at that one a while back but will definitely reread it. I've been impressed with the quality of builds/thread on here. There is a lot of great info on here that will surely come in handy.
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Think about a leak-down test instead of just compression, it will tell you more about what's going on (by listening to where the escape air is hissing from). I saw a simple one on Partsplaceinc.com for $30 something, or there are DIY articles on the web for about the same. Biggest challenge is drilling out an old glow plug or injector body for the cylinder hookup. You need a source of compressed air, I already had a cheapo air tank; filled it up at a gas station.
The idea is to put a cylinder at TDC and pressurize the remaining space with compressed air. The air will leak out eventually, how fast tells you how good the seal is, which is what you ultimately want to know. Gauges on the tester give you a relative indication.
What was much more useful to me, though, is the hiss the air makes as it escapes. If you hear the hiss at the exhaust pipe, the leakage is at the exhaust valve; at the air cleaner, it's the intake valve; at the EGR vent on the block, it's your rings, etc.
Just pushing air into the cylinder (with the ability to valve it off) and listening told me what I needed to know for my engine (not good news); if your AAZ is nice and tight, the gauges will tell you how uniform that tightness is across the cylinders.
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Update time:
I pulled the 1.6na from the Rabbit to get some parts of it and prep the engine bay for the swap.
First I removed the intake and exhaust manifolds to give more room.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8359/8297069513_be2efa8520.jpg)
Used the jacks to lower the engine down. Probably not the best way of doing it but making it work with what I have.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8214/8298118276_495014370a.jpg)
Jacked the car up as high as I could and removed the driver's side wheel to make more room for it to slide out.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8495/8298116878_e9295816f7.jpg)
Success!
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8496/8298115768_19ac0a6647.jpg)
This is where the fun ended. I had pulled the valve cover off the AAZ only to find this:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8221/8298114512_eeb1930c0f.jpg)
Last time I checked, the valve clearance for cylinder 1's exhaust shouldn't be a 1/4 inch. Not sure what the cause is but the head is coming off. I guess I'll use it as an excuse to at least port and polish the head. Knowing myself, I have a feeling this might turn into a total tear down and rebuild. At least I don't have to worry about doing a leak-down or compression test; got to look at the positives.
So this is how it sits for now.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8498/8298222154_079da3c834.jpg)
Probably won't start tearing down until after Christmas. Any suggestions on pieces to replace while the head is off or anything else I should look?
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i did and AAZ swap into my truck last winter and it was a great experience. Only modifications i had to do was to relocate the fuel filter swap, plug the EGR port in the exhaust manifold and use the top part of the 1.6 intake manifold, and i used a female exhaust coupler to extend the 2.25" down pipe the extra few millimeters to account for the taller block height. I actually got away with running the 1.6TD Technonics down pipe with a little rubbing at first before extending it. I did have to use the flywheel and clutch off the 1.6 on the AAZ to mate up to the starter. I agree with the others that if you can get it running prior to installing, it will save you a headache later.
I can now tow a small trailer full of camping supplies and a few hundred lbs of pets and drinks in the bed and keep up with highway traffic for hours now. I used to have to pullover several times going up long grades in the 1.6 when it was NA before it would get hot. Even going TD on the 1.6 was no where near the performance of the 1.9TD.
http://youtu.be/aLrop-uSNHw (http://youtu.be/aLrop-uSNHw)
Here is a link from Quality German Auto Parts, he make a video of all the motors he bring in from Germany running. He uses an old bellhousing, starter, and a garden hose to run each motor. They don't seem to rock too much just sitting on the ground.
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I'm doing the dame thing to my Rabbit; I've been collecting parts for the past almost 2 years no! Hit me up if you need any links or questions about finding parts or the engine in general. As for that head, good luck. Hopefully the lifter just needs some 'convincing' to come out. Seems everybody I ask says that an AAZ in a MK1 is great, and I'm no different! :)
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I did have to use the flywheel and clutch off the 1.6 on the AAZ to mate up to the starter.
All 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, 1.9 (excluding the TDI) and even the mk3 2.0L ABA all use the same 8v flywheel and clutch. So unfortunately you didn't have to do anything with the clutch.. Unless the clutch was bad on the 1.9.
Seems everybody I ask says that an AAZ in a MK1 is great, and I'm no different! :)
The 1.9 is just better than the 1.6 in every way. Better air flow, more displacement, more power potential from stock components with free mods. ;) lol
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Other than twisting the IP screw/cool intake air & doing some porting to the head, what other 'free' mods can be done? I know big, stainless, mandrel bent exhaust is good too, but at a fairly steep price and usually has to be custom fabricated.
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I did have to use the flywheel and clutch off the 1.6 on the AAZ to mate up to the starter.
All 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, 1.9 (excluding the TDI) and even the mk3 2.0L ABA all use the same 8v flywheel and clutch. So unfortunately you didn't have to do anything with the clutch.. Unless the clutch was bad on the 1.9.
Seems everybody I ask says that an AAZ in a MK1 is great, and I'm no different! :)
The 1.9 is just better than the 1.6 in every way. Better air flow, more displacement, more power potential from stock components with free mods. ;) lol
Only the transverse installs use the same kind of clutch setup. The longitudinal installs use a couple other versions.
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Oh, I was unaware of any longitudinal AAZ's in Canada that he may have got the donor engine from lol.
My bad.
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Regarding starting an engine sitting on the driveway, do you do it without coolant? How long can you run it w/o damage? 5 sec? 30 sec? 60 sec?
i run it cautiously, and keep feeling the block and head constantly..
ive run an engine for 2-3 minutes without coolant before.. diesels are STUPID efficient at idle.
when my diesel is cold, it will idle with roughly 200*f EGTs.. if your exhaust is only 200*, then the engine isnt gonna heat up very quick.
you can run a VW diesel for a LONG time without coolant.. longer than you could ever want to run one.
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Seems everybody I ask says that an AAZ in a MK1 is great, and I'm no different! :)
The 1.9 is just better than the 1.6 in every way. Better air flow, more displacement, more power potential from stock components with free mods. ;) lol
I'm really looking forward to this mostly so I can get up to speed on freeway on-ramps. The one I take often is a long uphill climb that takes a very long time before reaching 60mph with the 1.6
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Regarding starting an engine sitting on the driveway, do you do it without coolant? How long can you run it w/o damage? 5 sec? 30 sec? 60 sec?
i run it cautiously, and keep feeling the block and head constantly..
ive run an engine for 2-3 minutes without coolant before.. diesels are STUPID efficient at idle.
when my diesel is cold, it will idle with roughly 200*f EGTs.. if your exhaust is only 200*, then the engine isnt gonna heat up very quick.
you can run a VW diesel for a LONG time without coolant.. longer than you could ever want to run one.
Do you secure the engine to anything while doing this? The more I think about running the engine on the ground the more it worries me. Just afraid to have it flopping around on the ground :-\
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It's not as bad as it seems for jumping around.
I have a D24 on my stand right now, , and on the really cheap rickety stand it felt sketchy so I supported it form above. On the decent stand, no worries at all.
I looped the coolant hoses together, so I can get a 10-15 minute run time to operating temp, as monitored with an IR pyrometer.
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Nice Rabbit! Keep us updated.
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Update Time
Started work on removing the head to see why the exhaust valve lifter on cylinder #1 wasn't returning to it's normal position.
Manifolds removed
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8495/8332235680_ec5f46f43f.jpg)
Had a real problem trying to get the cam gear off. Ended up having to use some heat along with the puller.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8079/8332235946_ec6e391737.jpg)
Got the cam out, along with the lifters...
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8212/8331179521_c1c2577fd3.jpg)
And this is what exhaust lifter #1 looks like >:(
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8493/8332238654_cb9fc81a96.jpg)
Nice hole punched in it
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8211/8331183207_7f6c4fdfd2.jpg)
Each cylinder has marks from meeting the valves.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8501/8331180185_bb34449e82.jpg)
Also came across this random, solid?, (right) lifter. Someone has been in here before me.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8221/8332239104_4a3222b070.jpg)
At least there is some nice cross hatching in each cylinder.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8359/8331181439_7ced0858b8.jpg)
That's all for today. Tomorrow I will continue taking the head apart to see what else is broken. I'm guessing that either the timing belt broke at some point or someone may have messed up changing the belt. Either way, they messed up.
Have a good New Years and stay safe.
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Also came across this random, solid?, (right) lifter. Someone has been in here before me.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8221/8332239104_4a3222b070.jpg)
The one on the right is a hydraulic. The ones in my 91 TD are the same, the replacements I got are as well.
A solid should have the recess in the top for a puck (shim).
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The one on the right is a hydraulic. The ones in my 91 TD are the same, the replacements I got are as well.
A solid should have the recess in the top for a puck (shim).
Thanks for clearing that up. Just thought it was weird to have one random on in the there. Oh well, they're all going to be replaced anyways.
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That's all for today. Tomorrow I will continue taking the head apart to see what else is broken. I'm guessing that either the timing belt broke at some point or someone may have messed up changing the belt. Either way, they messed up.
Have a good New Years and stay safe.
I should say that you should also check out the nose of your crankshaft. The AAZs do have one big flaw in that they use timing belt cogs that were cut with a keyway on their mating area as well as the crank nose, causing eventual wear and loosening of the cog, leading to cam timing concerns and piston to valve contact in bad cases. You should get a timing cog from a 1Z/AHU TDI with a D shaped mating surface and get your crank nose machined for it. This eliminates the loosening timing belt cog concern.
Also don't forget to check lifter bores and valve guides.
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Also don't forget to check lifter bores and valve guides.
Is there a DIY way of checking the valve guides besides trying to wiggle the valves? Or, is there any reason not to just replaces the guides?
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Wiggling the valves is the proper way of checking. It is better if you have a dial gauge and measure the valve play from the head w/ the valve stem flush w/ the end of the guide. Rock the valve back and forth to check clearance. 1.3mm is the Bentley manual's max spec for these engines, on both in and ex. Pg 15a-16, Fig. 19.
They are easy to replace if you have a press. I have heard of folks hammering them out, but I would not risk it. And especially do NOT hammer them in! (Just saying for posterity)
As far as lifter bores, just check for smoothness or burring on the edges of the bores. They aren't known for going bad unless something went wrong like a piston hitting a valve, but since you found funky lifters I suggested it so you can CYA.
Keep updating! :)
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Wiggling the valves is the proper way of checking. It is better if you have a dial gauge and measure the valve play from the head w/ the valve stem flush w/ the end of the guide. Rock the valve back and forth to check clearance. 1.3mm is the Bentley manual's max spec for these engines, on both in and ex. Pg 15a-16, Fig. 19.
Thanks for this, I'm still waiting for my Mk3 Bentley to arrive. The Mk1 says the same for tolerances but wasn't sure if it was the same for the AAZ.
I'll have an update later today.
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Update
Started to tear down the head and see how bad things are in there.
Pulled the glow plugs. The one on the right is from cylinder #1 that has the suspect valve.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8218/8378251921_b3ca5dea44.jpg)
Compressing the valve springs to get the valve keepers off. This tool worked great, really easy to use. Found it on Amazon for only $45, not bad.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8365/8379331870_3cc44d4807.jpg)
All the valves came out very easily, except for the #1 exhaust valve. It took a bit of force to get it out of the guide. Took a measurement to verify what I could see with my eye, it was bent.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8336/8378254693_daf03a97e4.jpg)
The intake valves all had quite a bit of build up on them, but they seem to be cleaning up nicely.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8232/8379333878_ecd96a1a7c.jpg)
Disassembled head.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8498/8379337508_4dc9bd4f0e.jpg)
Ordered the following parts for the head rebuild. They should arrive soon so I can keep going on this. I'll be ordering valve guides just incase they are shoot. I have a dial gauge coming so that I'll be able to measure first. If they're close at all to the acceptable, they'll just be replace. At least it will be an excuse to go buy a press.
8mm exhaust valve (074 109 611)
Lifters - (034 109 309AD)
8mm valve steam seals - (026 109 675)
8mm valve guides (056 103 419A)
Cylinder head gasket kit (028 198 012F)
Injector heat shields (068 130 219)
While waiting for parts I'm hoping to port/polish the head a little. At least clean up the casting marks.
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I have found the root of my issue, the dreaded crank nose key. It used to be there but clearly is now missing.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8224/8390574999_01f7dc9a9f.jpg)
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Called it. :)
How does your crank nose look? If it's not that bad then you can just get a D cut 180 degrees out on the nose from the keyway notch and run it like that. If it IS that bad . . . well, then you may need some spray welding and turning done to the nose. I was that unlucky; make sure you get a knowledgeable welder/machinist if you go that route. Trust me on that last one, the last thing you want is a chip off the spray weld getting into seals and wallering out the nose further.
P.S.: Search the forums for threads on head porting; there are some good pics and instructions on here.
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Called it. :)
How does your crank nose look? If it's not that bad then you can just get a D cut 180 degrees out on the nose from the keyway notch and run it like that.
It's not too bad. Not too much damage to the nose.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8359/8421994361_0c667052b8.jpg)
I already picked up a TDi gear and went around to a couple machine shops. They just scratched their heads and directed me to other shops.
Do you think it could be done without welding the key way and just cut the nose 180 degrees from the key way? I'd really like to use something like one of these jigs.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32768.msg303989#msg303989
Looks like it would be much easier than trying to find a shop to cut the nose.
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IMO, you could get away with not welding, but your old keyway looks hammered enough that you will need to clean up the crank nose. I have done so in place by removing the cam and using the starter to spin the crank (glow plugs removed) while using a dremel mounted in a jig to grind the crank nose true again.
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Some guys pin the pulley & crank.
http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/fixing-loose-jx-bottom-pulley_topic31849.html
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii300/campervan123/IMG_1727.jpg)
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IMO, you could get away with not welding, but your old keyway looks hammered enough that you will need to clean up the crank nose. I have done so in place by removing the cam and using the starter to spin the crank (glow plugs removed) while using a dremel mounted in a jig to grind the crank nose true again.
Here's a better picture of the nose after a quick cleaning. It doesn't look to bad; think I'll try avoid welding.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8493/8424685123_8128eb2aeb.jpg)
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Looks pretty good, but you do have a little bit of a lip on each of the keyway ends, especially on the one on the counterclockwise edge. However, nothing a good turning down and check for nose flatness won't fix. You might want to PM Fatmobile and Andrew to see if they will sell/loan/let you copy their nice tools so you can save some headache of having to go around to find a machinist that will do crank work. Cut 180 out. Dowelling might also be a good adition if you plan to run some big power, but that is up to you. How's that crank nose oil seal groove feel?
How's the head work coming? Found any more surprises? Measured vale play yet? How are you still feeling about porting?
You're making good progress on inspection so far; keep updating! :)
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Time for an update:
It is starting to look like the engine either recently had a complete overhaul or had very few miles on it. The valve guides were well within spec, they look and measured like they were new. Can't recall the actual reading I got but it was well under the 1.3mm allowed. Because of this I decided against porting, I didn't want to cause any damage to the guides. I'm sure I could have done something without damage but since I'm just looking to run it in stock form and not go for all out performance, it will be alright.
I got a new exhaust valve to replace the bent one; along with all new lifters. Now cylinder 1 looks like it should. Lifters sitting level again.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8221/8429192452_b99f08f2a4.jpg)
Cleaned up the intake valves. They came out nicely.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8323/8428103797_f9485bc2e7.jpg)
The head is now all put back together and patiently waiting to be reunited with the block. Which brings me to the next part of the rebuild. As seen up above in this thread, the key on my timing gear gave way so the crank needed to come out.
Started tearing down the block
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8512/8378261229_e744234364.jpg)
All the surfaces look fine, no scratches or marring on anything
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8516/8379337222_ac6683a2c9.jpg)
Pistons all look to be in good shape and will be receiving new rings and bearings
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8469/8378259379_ed1b801dde.jpg)
With everything removed I was gave the block a nice coat of paint
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8376/8428103295_eb1414a5b8.jpg)
Highlighted just incase I forget what I've got in there (even though it won't be seen on the back)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8428103497_c91dcf327a.jpg)
Parts are starting to pile up all over the garage
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8219/8378261667_da9a99c5b6.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8047/8379340598_40713696a7.jpg)
Also got my gauges in. I went with VDO in a Scirroco 1 center console. This matches really well with the interior of the Rabbit.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8212/8378258043_fbfff3e194.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8192/8379336898_e7090c6fb2.jpg)
I've read mixed reviews about them but I'm hoping for the best. I've got a EGR probe from Aircraft Spruce waiting to be installed in the exhaust manifold.
Now I'm working on cleaning the mating surfaces for the head and block. It is taking forever but being sure to get everything clean and smooth for the best seal. Like I said I've been to a few shops to see about getting my crank nose done to accept the D shaped TDi timing gear but no luck yet. I'll see if I can get something like the ones linked above. I don't really want to drill and have studs put it. I feel like that would just as much work as having the nose made to accept the TDI gear; having to use a drill press to ensure everything to straight and true.
I've already got most of the parts I need to put the block back together so hopefully the end is near. My A4 is taking a major crap on me right now and needs the garage space so the Rabbit needs to be finished ASAP. Only hard piece left for me to find is a turbo diesel fuel filter mount, the one that goes on the firewall. No luck so far but figures crossed.
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I for one am digging the highlights.
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I for one am digging the highlights.
Looks sharp. DIG IT.