VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: ian2000t on August 20, 2012, 07:06:22 am
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Hi all, I'm a new member. I don't actually have a VW diesel, but I have a Volvo 760 TD (D24TIC) which is the 6 cylinder 2.4 ltr VW IDI engine. Basically a 1.6TD with 2 extra cylinders.
I've done a few mods to it, but I'm considering replacing the turbo (currently a T3), and thought this might be a good place to come for advice.
Is there much experience of the 2.4 engine on this forum?
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there are a few people on this forum who have them, everything is pretty well the same aside from the extra cylinders. I am quite jealous of you, i'd love to have a td volvo, that engine has a good amount of potential. Which transmission do you have? Also there are lots of good turbo options for you
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Put a Holset HE221W turbo on it!
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The Volvo diesels are rare in this North America (but the do exist among the 80s Volvos and I've run into a few) and the turbo-diesels are even more rare.
From what I've heard, common issues with them here is heads that warp or crack, more than the 4 cylinder VWs and the timing advance is electronic and it gets stuck in the advanced position (too much advance), eventually killing the engine. Parts like hoses that are specific to that engine are also very expensive here.
If I owned one I would definitely run an intercooler, especially if you're going to feed it more boost, and a Volvo should have no problems with fitting an intercooler, since a lot of them came with one. As far as I know, no diesel Volvos were intercooled in the U.S. but some were in Europe. Does yours have one?
Anyway, how common are they in the UK?
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I have a couple of those.
I'd recommend head studs and metal gasket if you have it apart.
His is new enough it came intercooled ;D
here I see TD's about 9-1 vs non turbo, the NA motors were too slow, and didn't hold up as well.
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Put a Holset HE221W turbo on it!
Yeah even an hy35w would be perfect or a standard t3/to4e
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Put a Holset HE221W turbo on it!
Yeah even an hy35w would be perfect or a standard t3/to4e
Or a gt2871 or there's a bunch of nice borgwarner turbos the efr stuff would be great I bet depends what you wanna spend
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ive heard of em,never been up close to one.this is a cool place for us vw dudes and im sure you will get info here...welcome :)
we advise in crankin the boost and fuel whenever in doubt though.
im pretty sure u wont get a hard time here not like some other vw places,ahem
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Yeah even an hy35w would be perfect or a standard t3/to4e
Or a gt2871 or there's a bunch of nice borgwarner turbos the efr stuff would be great I bet depends what you wanna spend
NONE of the turbos you mention are any good matches to a 2.4 IDI engine, too big and/or too old!
The HE221W is perfect for the 2.4! I have the compressor map, I've done the calculations and I've seen dynos on how this turbo spools. Surge line has lots of margin on these, 360deg thrust bearing straight out of the box, milled-from-solid compressor wheels and also easy to source for a fair price.
Only problem is building a pump for these I-6 engines that gives enough fuel and RPM :(
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Mine revs over 6K with just a gov mod, how fast do you want to turn it?
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Mine revs over 6K with just a gov mod, how fast do you want to turn it?
Yep, but that's with the original 10mm piston and low-lift camplate in the pump, these engines deserves more fuel than that! These pumps are only rated 4800rpm crank speed in stock form, higher lift cam plate and/or bigger piston would make it even worse.
Off course, since we're talking IDI, we would like to turn them at least 7k rpm, but that means dropping the VE/VP pumps all together...
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Yeah even an hy35w would be perfect or a standard t3/to4e
Or a gt2871 or there's a bunch of nice borgwarner turbos the efr stuff would be great I bet depends what you wanna spend
NONE of the turbos you mention are any good matches to a 2.4 IDI engine, too big and/or too old!
The HE221W is perfect for the 2.4! I have the compressor map, I've done the calculations and I've seen dynos on how this turbo spools. Surge line has lots of margin on these, 360deg thrust bearing straight out of the box, milled-from-solid compressor wheels and also easy to source for a fair price.
Only problem is building a pump for these I-6 engines that gives enough fuel and RPM :(
the compressor maps look good for it, but i have no real experience to say what actually works. what does the he221w come on stock? billet compressor wheels :o :o. can you send me the compressor map for my turbo files? there is a good amount of 6 cylinder pump parts because of the 6bt engines i thought.
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From 1984 with the release of the 6bt, they used a variety of different fuel systems before settling on Bosch in 1989. They came with a CAV, the P7100 Inline and the Bosch. The 6bt used a Bosch VE pump from 89-93, and even then half of them could have been the P7100 Inline pumps. 1994 saw the mainstream introduction of the de-tuned "P" pumps, the P7100 inline pump. They were so de-tuned from factory, it is why you see so many massive gains on the early 12V by just a few modifications.
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Does the 6BT pumps turn the same way as the D24T pumps?
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I think so? As people use them on the 4 cylinder TDI's.. and they turn the same way as the 2.4 I am assuming?
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hey guys cant giles build this guy a strong stocker style pump tho???
i was definately hooked after seein that extreme 4x4 show with that lil suzuki..it had a nice fuel lope...when i get back on the 79,ill def have him tweak mine
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hey guys cant giles build this guy a strong stocker style pump tho???
i was definately hooked after seein that extreme 4x4 show with that lil suzuki..it had a nice fuel lope...when i get back on the 79,ill def have him tweak mine
Definitely x2 on that suggestion, but I'd be worried about international turnaround times and shipping charges. You know, seeing as he lives Britainland and all? But if he can incur any of that potential red tape then yeah, definitely call Giles!
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I think so? As people use them on the 4 cylinder TDI's.. and they turn the same way as the 2.4 I am assuming?
The 2.4 pumps turn the other way than our IDI and TDIs.... Don't think you can use a piston from a pump that's meant to turn the "normal" way in those D24T pumps.
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You might just have to rework your injection lines is all.
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I was thinking the piston didn't care it was the camplate that didn't like the reversing of rotation. I am not sure, but I would think you could definately get the pump to work but it may not be bolt on and go.
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I was thinking the piston didn't care it was the camplate that didn't like the reversing of rotation. I am not sure, but I would think you could definately get the pump to work but it may not be bolt on and go.
You'd need an opposite rotating cam plate, and to rearrange the injection lines, should work id think
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Does the 6BT pumps turn the same way as the D24T pumps?
no, the D20, and D24 both have CCW rotating pumps..
they are driven from the BACK of the cam, not the crank.. these engines have a timing belt for the can and water pump, and a separate one driving the pump..
the pumps face the firewall on these engines, and need to spin backwards because of it..
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Didn't realise I'd had that many responses, thanks all!
To answer a few questions, yes the pump on mine faces the bulkhead (firewall if you like ;) ) and run off the rear of the cam - do the 1.6 IDI's run from the front of the cam then? And mine does have an intercooler, but I'm not really sure how efficient it is, as it is sandwiched between (literally touching) the coolant and the aircon radiators, so it's always very warm! And, last year I did the cambelt, pumpbelt and headgasket - I used a 2 notch Ajusa MLS gasket rather than the fibre type, but I used new headbolts (12mm TTY) - the studs were a bit out of my pricerange last year.
The turbo on mine at the moment is a T3, I think the numbers are - 072145703 - 466794-1 - if they mean anything to anyone on here? I've also heard .36 A/R mentioned, but I'm a novice when it comes to turbos..! At the moment it's set to 16psi using a ball and spring MBC. I'm sure I have a boost leak somewhere though, at about 7-8psi I can hear a high pitched whine over the usual turbo hiss. It's been lie it for over a year now, and I've never traced it. In that time it's had new inlet manifold (D24tic reaplced for D24 N/A) and I used gasket sealant to ensure it can't be leaking; different boost hoses/pipes (had to be re-routed for inlet manifold); and I even tried bypassing the intercooler; but the whine is still there! Could it be the turbo itself?
What would be involved in fitting the HE221W? Would it spool earlier/later than my current one?
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The HE221W has a T3 flange, just like you original turbo, so it's plug and play on your exhaust manifold. Depending on which of them you get, timing the housings might be needed but that's easy
These turbos run close to 30psi in stock form and are built to handle it!
Spool-up will probably be faster or similar to the turbo you already run while it has enough reserves to support effects way north of 200bhp (280-290bhp on 2.5TDI dyno proven)
Off course, there will be a need to fabricate or modify your existing downpipe, TIP, oil feed and drain and connect the turbo to the intercooler piping in some way.
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Ok, well downpipe not too much problem, I know a few guys that could weld a new flange on my old downpipe, providing I can get hold of the right flange.
Connecting turbo to intercooler piping is fine, I've actually been considering a new intercooler, mounted further forward, and if possible with same side in/out to make pipework routing easier.
What do you mean by "TIP"? Oil feed and drain shouldn't be too much hassle I assume?
What psi would be sensible to run on this turbo on my engine, bearing in mind it's an Auto (ZF22) and a daily driver? Would this turbo still be a good choice if I only wanted to run 20psi?
At the moment it's very sluggish below 2000rpm, and the turbo starts to spool (5psi ish) by 2300-ish, then is on 16psi by about 2600.
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TIP = turbo intake pipe ;)
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Connecting turbo to intercooler piping is fine, I've actually been considering a new intercooler, mounted further forward, and if possible with same side in/out to make pipework routing easier.
What psi would be sensible to run on this turbo on my engine, bearing in mind it's an A
At the moment it's very sluggish below 2000rpm, and the turbo to starts spo ishuto (ZF22) and a dol (5psiaily driver? Would this turbo still be a good choice if I only wanted to run 20psi?
) by 2300-ish, then is on 16psi by about 2600.
Sounds like your turbo is working well for a stock unit. Are you nozzles in good shape? Timing on the advanced side of spec? A little more off-boost fueling might wake it up quite a bit too.
The original intercooler is very good as stock ones go,but the bigger chinabay ones fit pretty easy too.
I think changing to 3" exhaust helped my spool time a little.
My Aside from the stick transmission and no intercooler, my setup is pretty much like yours, and I stopped at about 1 BAR due to EGT.
IMO, the stick cars feel faster.
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Extra fueling, faster spooling
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The HE221W has a T3 flange, just like you original turbo, so it's plug and play on your exhaust manifold. Depending on which of them you get, timing the housings might be needed but that's easy
These turbos run close to 30psi in stock form and are built to handle it!
Spool-up will probably be faster or similar to the turbo you already run while it has enough reserves to support effects way north of 200bhp (280-290bhp on 2.5TDI dyno proven)
Off course, there will be a need to fabricate or modify your existing downpipe, TIP, oil feed and drain and connect the turbo to the intercooler piping in some way.
Mistake on my behalf! The HE221W has in fact a T25 flange :(
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Had a look, but Holset turbo's aren't easy to find in UK - not aware of any cars that use them!
My mate suggested a GT20 of some variety. How good a match would that be for mine, and which GT20 would I need to look for?
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The HE221W is made in China so can be bought cheap directly from there, check out aliexpress.com or alibaba.com, make sure you get a genuine Holset though :)
If going Garrett is your only option I would go for the GT2056
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Ok cheers, will look into that - but I'm guessing a new one is out of my budget!
Is this any good to me?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CHEROKEE-2-8-CRD-TURBOCHARGER-04-07-GARRETT-757246-0001-35242112G-/290760565980?pt=UK_Computing_Other_Computing_Networking&hash=item43b2ae24dc
Is the GT2056V a variable vane turbo?
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GT2056V is a VNT turbo, so that complicates it alot as you need to control the vanes
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That's what I thought. What cars had a non VNT GT2056?
Is the GT2056 a T3 flange by any chance?
Would it be a worthwhile upgrade over my standard T3?
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The HE221W is made in China so can be bought cheap directly from there, check out aliexpress.com or alibaba.com, make sure you get a genuine Holset though :)
If going Garrett is your only option I would go for the GT2056
Holset turbos are made in the USA... not china..
read a thing directly from holstes website that says all genuine holsets are american..
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That's what I thought. What cars had a non VNT GT2056?
Is the GT2056 a T3 flange by any chance?
Would it be a worthwhile upgrade over my standard T3?
no its t25, gt2056
u may be able to order it with a t3 flange tho. i've seen some weird stuff before, a nissan guy i know had a turbo with a 60 trim to4e compressor bolted to a t25 .64 turbine side that had a t3 flange, it wasn't on a car, but i was like dude wtf are you going to do with that weird thing haha. tiny turbine with huge compressor
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The bigger power cars seem to run a GT35, or HX40...go down a notch from there, and stick with the T3 flange.
In the meantime, $15 on a ball and spring boost controller helps a lot with low RPM spool.
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The HE221W is made in China so can be bought cheap directly from there, check out aliexpress.com or alibaba.com, make sure you get a genuine Holset though :)
If going Garrett is your only option I would go for the GT2056
i think gt2259 looks very good as well, they don't have it mapped much above 2 bars but it obviously will work up there since its only at 154k at 3 bars, i would just be concerned that the turbine side is too big, but i think since .48 a/r ancient t3 works a little bit, that any gt22 turbine will work much better, but with out actually trying, who knows
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Holset turbos are made in the USA... not china..
read a thing directly from holstes website that says all genuine holsets are american..
Well, you are wrong ;)
Holset, or Cummins Turbo Technologies as is the correct name these days, has a lot of their production going on in China, especially the smaller displacement engines ISF. Yes, there are Chinese copies of Holset turbos, but the genuine ones are easy to get as well.
Please post a link to your statement about all genuine Holsets are USA made.
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I can second the Holset production in China issue. My neighbour is a Chief engineer for Holset and Cummins and he personally went to China to buy a chinese production plant.
There are non genuine Chinese Holset copies i grant you but then there are non genuine Chinese copies of most things.
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Wuxi Cummins Turbo Technologies Co. Ltd
28# Xinxi Road
Wuxi National High and New Technology Development Zone
Wuxi City
Jiangsu PRC
214028
China
Tel: 00 86 510 85200 800
Fax: 00 86 510 85200 899
Email: [email protected]
Shenzhen Fuda Engine Equipment Co., Ltd
Room 902,Zhiben Building
12 Fumin Road,Shenzhen Guangdong
China (518045)
Tel: 00 86 755 28175600
Fax: 00 86 755 28175618
Email: [email protected]
Shanghai Roto Turbo System Inc
158-1 Shengdu Road
Yexie Industrial Estate
Shanghai
China
Tel: 00 86 21 57882871
Fax: 00 86 21 57885785
Email: [email protected]
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Holset turbos are made in the USA... not china..
read a thing directly from holstes website that says all genuine holsets are american..
Well, you are wrong ;)
Holset, or Cummins Turbo Technologies as is the correct name these days, has a lot of their production going on in China, especially the smaller displacement engines ISF. Yes, there are Chinese copies of Holset turbos, but the genuine ones are easy to get as well.
Please post a link to your statement about all genuine Holsets are USA made.
wow, seems as if you are right.. thats gotta be a new thing? china production..
because a year or so, i was doing some reading, and right on holsets website, it said that all holsets were produced in the usa..
well, the website is different now, and it DOES mention lots of china..
the last good american company finally went with chinese production.. great!
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Holset is actually a British company from the beginnig, not American ;)
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They are based in my adopted hometown, good old Huddersfield!