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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: monomer on August 03, 2012, 09:44:56 pm
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After ~3 years of sitting, I got my 83 rabbit to crank.
Different motor, different everything. Lots of bolts and two spare blocks later; it CRANKED.
I'm sad that the battery has no balls. But the sheer fact that it's timed in right and sounded like it wanted to start makes the past two weeks of work worth it. The bently manual and this site were invaluable.
Work to the body, exhaust and interior work need to get done, next season it's getting charged (arp hardware installed.)
Thanks everyone! I wish you all were here to see the grin on my face!
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Yeahhh buddddy
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Verry nice, high fives!!
Mine will be about at your level when I get the thing ready to run again; new engine, trans, sitting for over a year now . . .I know that feel bro. Just think, only two more steps to go: Start-up and break-in!
Hit us up if there are any other issues once she starts running. And don't forget pics. 8)
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Ok, on to the questions:
I've snagged the battery of my DD. No luck starting, no matter how much cranking. Could the pump timing (eye-balled) be off far enough to cause this? It has fuel to the inlet and coming out of the return. All I get is a little white smoke, mostly from the valvecover breather line.
Intake is not on the car yet. Exhaust is on, but with no DP.
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So. I take it the pump was empty from fuel when you put it back on?
It takes ALOT of cranking to pull fuel all the way from the tank. I suggest filling up your filter and pump and trying again.
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So. I take it the pump was empty from fuel when you put it back on?
It takes ALOT of cranking to pull fuel all the way from the tank. I suggest filling up your filter and pump and trying again.
Walbro lift pump installed.
It has a leak somewhere, because bubbles develop if it sits. With the pump on it's solid.
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OR you could put a little air pressure (like 3 psi) and just crack the bleeder on the filter till you have fuel there. Then crack the banjo bolt at the pump to clear the air from the line. Crank it with your foot to the floor until it starts. Keep the revs high enough to keep it running but do not over rev the motor. If it is being stubborn you can try cracking the fittings one by one at the injectors to help bleed the air out of the hard lines.
BTW, "eyeballing" pump timing is pretty silly. Dig out the tools and do it right BEFORE you try to start it. I have never had one that did not start right up unless the supply pump in the IP was bad.
The easiest way to put some pressure on a Rabbit tank is the vent hose that runs into the engine compartment and disappears into a hole in the bumper horn. If it does not have one, then I use the return line and don't release pressure until I have fuel coming out the fitting on top of the IP. Put the line back on and crank it.
If you use too much pressure you can blow the hose off of the tank fitting, which will of course, squirt diesel fuel out the 10 mm hole at a frightening rate, so beware. I use my leakdown tester set to 3 PSI.
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I've gotten them to run good with out timing tools but ur just shooting in the dark really. And usually when mine are off time I can still get them to start then adjust the pump from there depending on if it's smoking white or too clanky
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Eyeball timing? You didn't eyeball the belt timing process did you?
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I just crack open (1/8 turn) the injector lines where they attach to the injectors, and crank until a little fuel leaks from each union. I also use a primer bulb to draw fuel thru the return banjo...
I couldn't get mine to fire, because I had backed out the fueling screw too far, turning that back in and using the starting advance got it going... good luck...
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VERY little fuel is actually present going to the injectors to fire it off and get it idling.
Also having that max fuel screw out will cause a no run situation. It only takes a turn out to make it so not enough fuel is pumping to fire.
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Belt was installed per bently, with.ip and cam locked. crank set to tdc. Hamd cranked two revs and double checked.
This is the ip that came off the car when it ran. No adjustments made.
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keep cranking or have it towed in 2nd gear.
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keep cranking or have it towed in 2nd gear.
Wimpy battery and slow starter is most of my problem, I think.
The brakes have been sitting for three years also (new before then) I don't trustm yet. I think I'll get the starter rebuilt, or switch it with one in the garage (mk2) and a new battery friday (Proper group 41)
So close I can smell the diesel.
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keep cranking or have it towed in 2nd gear.
Wimpy battery and slow starter is most of my problem, I think.
The brakes have been sitting for three years also (new before then) I don't trustm yet. I think I'll get the starter rebuilt, or switch it with one in the garage (mk2) and a new battery friday (Proper group 41)
So close I can smell the diesel.
Brakes? Who neeeeds em lol
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You are cranking this thing with WOT, aren't you? If you do not, it will take forever to get it to fire. WOT pushes the air through the hard lines and injectors much faster.
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Tried everything.
I don't think it's revving fast enough. More chug-chug-chug then usual. New battery Friday, and I'm going to quote a starter rebuild locally (No parts store BS)
Can the pump timing be 180 out? and how far out can it be and still run? The keyway on the gear was rather sloppy.
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The pump can be 180* out internally.. did you rebuild or have it rebuilt? did it not run before?
With the pump and now probably lines full of fuel, it should fire off pretty readily. Assuming you have good compression and your glow plugs are working.
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Tried everything.
I don't think it's revving fast enough. More chug-chug-chug then usual. New battery Friday, and I'm going to quote a starter rebuild locally (No parts store BS)
Can the pump timing be 180 out? and how far out can it be and still run? The keyway on the gear was rather sloppy.
If you tried my suggestion of towing it in 2nd...key on... then you tried everything. Took one of mine about 1/2 mile to start to chug and then 3/4 mile to actually start. This was after cranking until the battery died 2 times.
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If you tried my suggestion of towing it in 2nd...key on... then you tried everything.
gots no brakes to stop it with..
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Use a long rope and don't get close, when it fires downshift to 1st, then go nuetral, until it stops. Go flat or uphill. In all reality you could tow it in 1st at 7mph or so as that is way more than idle and what a starter can turn.
Maybe its me, or where I grew up, but there are a ton of goat roping fixes that will get you by.
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It's you AND where you grew up. Goat roping? Keep a spare behind the tool box or what?
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Yeah.. wow, Ohio.. I.. have nothing. lol
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I'm in the city.
I'm pretty sure the brakes are fine, but its not worth the risk. Glow plugs are new(er) with low miles. Car has a brand new 1 notch HG and arp studs.
Pumps never been apart. New battery on friday - and if it doesn't crank faster: new starter.
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I didn't see here where you have verified two things that will likely give you fits. 1/ fuel delivery to the injectors. Have you cracked the injector nuts at the top of them when cranking does fuel spritz out or leak some?
2/ Is the fuel being delivered at the right time. Might be that you have that key way trouble where it is mashed over to one side and is affecting the timing. Pop the pulley off and see what is the problem there. If the pump has not been worked on then getting the mark on the pulley lined up with the one on the bracket would be proper setting. Dial gauge setting equals? Oh you don't have that tool that's not so good but not insurmountable either. Just use eyes on marks and TDC in the hole.
If it won't start there is always the Ambassador bridge right? One push and Canada has more recyclables. Don't forget to roll up the windows.
If I were visiting my sister or brother I could come fix this for you but not the case. Livonia Lizards they are.
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Are you saying you have brake pedal but you are afraid they might not work? Tow starting will save you a lot of grief and money. Just try the brakes when you first start towing it slowly. The brake discs and drums may develop some rust from sitting that may take a few stops to rub off, but you will still have brakes and they will get better with each stop.
Its important to remember that a diesel with completely dry bores will crank slowly and draw a lot of current. The same is true of bores that have been washed down with fuel. Either could be your problem and a new starter won't cure that.
You could have all manner of minor leaks on the suction side of the IP or a bad seal in the pump. This is best diagnosed on a running engine. Pull starting it will get you to that point. If you drag it far enough it will start with lots of problems that will then become apparent and easy to fix. BTW I almost never have to drag one even 1/2 a block to get it to start. Often times they are running before I get to the end of my driveway. I did have to drag one 1/4 mile one time to get it to start, but it was so worn out I was surprised that it even ran when I took it apart.
It also does not take much of a timing error to make them start hard. Borrow or buy the timing tools and get it right before you try to start it w/o towing. OR just tow start it and go from there.
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It gets fuel to the injectors.
Something I just noticed: It's REALLY easy to crank by hand. I've never had one of these engines here properly running, so I don't know the feel - but it feels easier then my K-car. Usually not a good sign.
Battery's new. Still wont crank for any extended period of time, I wonder if I biff'd some of the wiring (It's been awhile since I've seen it wired) Batter light and oil light stays on, GP light cycles as normal. I'm going to get the starter rebuilt, as it's one less part to worry about - I want this car to start everytime.
STILL getting air in the fuel lines (clear line) Replaced all the crush washers. Has anyone ever seen a fuel bracket crack? I need to inspect it, somethings up.
My buddy has a ram1500; I might get him to pull it. I only have a city block here to work with, folks. Damn suburbia.
/headache
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Oh, and on the IP timing bit: I'm a machinist by trade, and have a 1 inch travel .001 starrett indicator in the garage. Suppose I could fashion a way to mount this and do a proper timing job?
Money's tight. If it's an IP problem, I have four here to choose from. Like I said, this one came off the car when it ran, and was purchased in 07 from the parts place by the PO of the car.
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It gets fuel to the injectors.
If you have fuel at at least 2 of the injectors from the lines then they are pretty much ready to go. You'd be surprised by how little fuel is actually injected to idle these engines.
Something I just noticed: It's REALLY easy to crank by hand. I've never had one of these engines here properly running, so I don't know the feel - but it feels easier then my K-car. Usually not a good sign.
I assume you have a wrench on the crank bolt? 19mm 12-point? What size bar do you have on the wrench? LOL. It should be super duper easy between compression strokes, like when 1 is at TDC compression for the timing process. Keep in mind the 400psi cylinder pressure will never be gained turning the engine over at half an rpm.. so I would not be alarmed it turns to easy.
Battery's new. Still wont crank for any extended period of time, I wonder if I biff'd some of the wiring (It's been awhile since I've seen it wired) Batter light and oil light stays on, GP light cycles as normal. I'm going to get the starter rebuilt, as it's one less part to worry about - I want this car to start everytime.
There is like 5 wires in the engine bay of an 83 Rabbit ;). For running purposes, the pump needs a 12v keyed source (key in run) to its connection on the distributor head. The starter has two connections, the big lug gets a thick wire direct from battery positive and the small spade is 12v hot when the key is in its furthest position (start).
STILL getting air in the fuel lines (clear line) Replaced all the crush washers. Has anyone ever seen a fuel bracket crack? I need to inspect it, somethings up.
Thought you had a lift pump installed inline? The fuel line should then be pressurized shouldn't it? And if anything there should be fuel leaks out not air leaks in?
Alright so here is what we are gonna do. You need to isolate the problems one at a time and determine what is wrong with each system one at a time. You are trying to kill a fly with a shotgun here, and its not really working.. You keep spending money, but are no further ahead. Ya'dig?
Clearly something is up with the starting system, isolate it. Remove the stock wiring from the pump and the starter except for the large gauge wire directly from the battery. Take a small gauge jumper wire and attach it to the pumps spade terminal, attach the other end to the batteries positive. Take another small gauge jumper wire and go from the starters spade terminal to the batteries positive, this will cause the starter to turn the engine over so be ready for that. Do you notice any difference in cranking? If not then there is only one more suspect, the big wire from the battery to the starter. It is likely old and corroded within the rubber sheathing and not doing a good job passing current anymore. If in doubt, replace it is cheap.
Glow plugs, yes the dash light is coming on.. but this does not mean they are working, unfortunately. So another jumper lead would be useful here, but this one needs to be large gauge. 10g or larger. Each glow plug pulls roughly 9amps so you have 36-40 amps there, and need the gauge to support that. Again from the battery positive to the copper buss bar running across the front of the engine between glow plugs. Give them a good 10 seconds, remove that wire from the battery and touch the starter wire while holding the throttle open with your hand. It should fire off.
With these simple machines you must often take a step back and go at it one piece at a time. :)
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Very well put 8V if this doesn't get it going I don't know what to say. Only three parts need 12 positive, and you named them. Should he also clean the ground to the engine and battery? How many goofy problems are solved by cleaning or adding another wire?
Have we determined Glow plugs work? Sparks at the touch of the bus bar should be a good indicator some if not all are good. Still might need to pull and do a jump across the battery to see them go red.
Killing a fly with a shotgun, what a visual that is. Thanks for the laugh I had a hard week.
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Ah yes! very good I missed that! The stock wiring in these was much to be desired.
I would at the very least, ADD a body to battery ground.. everything grounds inside to the fusebox, and if it is not perfect you will have super issues. Make sure the battery to engine mount cable is clean, you could move it if you desire, Personally I like to have it on one of the transmission bolts, smothered in die0electric grease. Just as long as its on the block or transmission somewhere.
Another starter issue I found was, the power has to make it in to the starter from where it mates to the transmission.. if this is not a crystal clean mating surface it will not transfer all the amperage across to the starter and really slow down the cranking. Remove starter and really clean up the mating surface, and then glob it with die-electric :).
No probs on the laugh lol.
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BEWARE!!!
my rabbit had a ground wire NOT MAKING ANY CONTACT.
it was the main ground.. it was complete, and even still looked good..
touch the ends with a volt meter set to continuity check, and nothing..
tested again, but with the meter set for resistance, and it wouldnt budge off the OL reading..
wire was not burned, over heater, abused, or even touched..
i parked the car (it was still operating fine, i had started it up 15 mins before at a friends house to come home) went to sleep, woke up the next morning to go to school, and it WOULD NOT START. wouldnt even jump start unless i clamped the ground to the trans/engine somewhere..
that bad ground ended up taking out my oil pressure warning system with it.. it tried using that as a supplemental ground.. didnt work out too good.
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Whoever called the wiring as the issue was indeed correct.
Pics to come. The disconnects on the positive side are toast. The engine ground is ran to a motor mount bolt right now, changing that to one of the starter bolts and running new wires to the cabin. All larger gauge and new. All sourced from www.partsexpress.com - everything I need instock and rather cheap.
Need to get a new voltmeter, all the ones around are toast (bad habit)
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OK.
After cleaning up the terminals and charging the battery overnight: it cranks like it should.
Pump timing is far off (atleast, I hope it's just pump timing) as it wants to start, but bellows out white smoke while cranking. I'm going to post on the local VW board to see if anyone has a proper timing kit. It's a rather slow board and I have the diesel fever right now...
Which way should I adjust the timing? That is, until I buy/borrow the indicator setup.
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Are you leaving your glow plugs on long enough? White-ish some usually indicates incomplete combustion. The fuel is not getting hot enough before it is asked to ignite and send the piston down, I would move the pump a few hairs towards the engine and see how that works.
Also as a side note; The timing tools won't help you with diddly squat ;) Your ear and butt are better than the gauge, small test drives for performance will not hurt the engine in anyway. In my honest humble opinion it will be a waste of your money. I haven't used it on the last dozen or two times I've timed mine. 1.6, 1.9AAZ and a 1.9 M-TDI AHU.
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Pump moved towards engine, still white smoke
verified that all four cylinders are getting fuel, and checked to see that the NEW GP's are getting 12v (they are.)
I think the starter is still a bit. It'll crank nice and fast the first second, then back down to chug-chug-chug. I hope the wiring helps out with that
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Compression check on cylinder four via GP is just over 225PSI.
Somethings amiss.
Should be around 400, eh?
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Pump moved towards engine, still white smoke
verified that all four cylinders are getting fuel, and checked to see that the NEW GP's are getting 12v (they are.)
I think the starter is still a bit. It'll crank nice and fast the first second, then back down to chug-chug-chug. I hope the wiring helps out with that
This is classic crap wiring. Should help out no problem.
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Cam's off a couple of degrees from the TDC mark on the flywheel. EDIT: IT'S SPOT ON!!!!!1111
Whats the chance of smacked valves? This would explain the compression, no?
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Would not cranking fast enough cause a lower psi? I cranks for a good 10 seconds to get that reading.
the HG is a one notch, like I took off. No room for error, but I can't find any without pulling the head off (again)
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If it is cranking slow then yes, it will give you lower compression numbers. Also a cold engine will give lower numbers.
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Get that wiring swapped out, and make sure EVERY connection is clean with die-electric.
Re-do the comp test then.
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Get that wiring swapped out, and make sure EVERY connection is clean with die-electric.
Re-do the comp test then.
Just what I was waiting to hear.
Was REAL close to tearing the head off.
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Its alive!
More to come. Thanks for all the help!
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YESS! I am so glad when people get their engines running after working on it so diligently :)
Congratulations, you deserve it. 8)
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Champagne was consumed.
It moved on it's own for the first time in three years.
Next: the USRT kit isnt setup proper. I get 3-5th and reverse. Also, clutch pedal go's to the floor, and is adjusted all the way out. the cable is new. I'm thinking the bushing on the pedal is toast (the accel pedal has the same issue)
!!!!!!
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Above issues taken care of.
The car is plated and insured. Just drove it legally for the firsttime in 4 years! Grin ear-to-ear!
Thanks everyone! Couldn't have done it without this forum!
-Kevin (the OTHER Kevin...)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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PICS PICS PICS!! Awesome to hear another diesel mk1 running out there somewhere.
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PICS PICS PICS!! Awesome to hear another diesel mk1 running out there somewhere.
I'll post in the rides section.
...soon
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Great job!
I'm new to these engines and am still learning a lot here from these helpful guys.
You stuck with it and won! - Congrats!