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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Jarrus on July 25, 2012, 12:53:13 pm
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Hi,
Ive got a Peugeot 306 which ive put a 2.1 XUD11 engine in it (sorry if ive posted in the wrong place) Its an IDI engine with 3 valves per cylinder,
Running a Bosch VE with an 11mm head and gov mod,
Plans next are to go back to the 9mm head to keep the smoke under control and im going to grind the advance piston for some more advance past 4k rpms (max 5k)
Would I gain anything by changing the cam plate for a higher lift one? But I guess DI ones arent any good for an IDI engine? And is it worth going for larger delivery valves?
Cheers
Brett
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Also thought about getting an m and h fuel pin to hopefully get a bigger fuel range
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Hi,
Ive got a Peugeot 306 which ive put a 2.1 XUD11 engine in it (sorry if ive posted in the wrong place) Its an IDI engine with 3 valves per cylinder,
Running a Bosch VE with an 11mm head and gov mod,
Plans next are to go back to the 9mm head to keep the smoke under control and im going to grind the advance piston for some more advance past 4k rpms (max 5k)
Would I gain anything by changing the cam plate for a higher lift one? But I guess DI ones arent any good for an IDI engine? And is it worth going for larger delivery valves?
Cheers
Brett
the cam plate MIGHT be an upgrade, but its going to make timing it a bit harder.. the 4mm (DI) camplate just gives you x amount of fuel, in a shorter time than the 2.3mm (IDI) camplate will do.. also, the 4mm cam plate takes some of your MAX RPM away as well.. but then again, you only want 5000 max anyways, and thats pushing it with a 11mm pump.
AAZ came with a 4mm cam plate, and its an IDI engine.. but it also had dual brake pressures on the injectors..
i see no gain to be had from delivery valves..
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Ok cheers mate,
I have another question then, using an 11 mm head screw up the pump timing, How do I recibrate it? My engine is knocking like buggery :)
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Using the large head shouldn't have effected your timing, unless you used the 11mm fuel pressure regulator?
Also with respect to the dv's, a couple of people, con/dts67 in particular, have experimented with different valves and found big gains to be had.
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The plunger/head size affects timing significantly even without a regulator change.
I've also experimented with delivery valves and have not found any gains to be had.
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Yeah regulator is standard, what would you suggest? More or less pressure? Id reckon less by the sound of it...
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Go for a decent idle spec first because at idle the dynamic advance will not be in effect. If it's very rattley at idle, then the static timing needs to be retarded. Once a decent idle timing is achieved, then you can adjust the pressure to suit whether you need more or less advance at speed.
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Using the large head shouldn't have effected your timing, unless you used the 11mm fuel pressure regulator?
Also with respect to the dv's, a couple of people, con/dts67 in particular, have experimented with different valves and found (NO?) big gains to be had.
WERE big gains to be had?
or they found no gains from delivery valves?
i dont see how you can change power levels just by changing a check valve? delivery valves are just one way valves to keep residual pressure in the injection lines when there is no injection event..
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I can see how delivery valves shimmed closer to injector breaking pressure would result in more potential fuel delivery because a smaller initial part of the plunger stroke would be required to pass injector break pressure and so more of the plunger stroke would be available for pushing fuel into the cylinders. I can also see how lower injector break pressure could result in more power in a similar way. I will say that I have swapped delivery valves and had the swap result in a noticeable change in fueling so that I had to adjust the max fuel screw significantly to achieve the same fueling curve. All that said, if I was maxing out a pumps potential, I would turn to other mods before messing with the delivery valves.
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Ok lads cheers for the replies,
Ive also noticed something, after 4k the power starts to drop off... Would could be causing this? I got the govenor shimmed up and have rotated the lda pin ramp to the most aggressive setting
I should point out as well this car isnt my daily driver
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Ok lads cheers for the replies,
Ive also noticed something, after 4k the power starts to drop off... Would could be causing this? I got the govenor shimmed up and have rotated the lda pin ramp to the most aggressive setting
I should point out as well this car isnt my daily driver
id your pump getting as much fuel as it needs? made sure you dont have a feed line restriction, or a partially clogged fuel filter?
how much did you shim your governor?
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Recently replaced my fuel filter,
Shimmed the govnor about 5mm, think it needs to be solid?
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Would a lift pump help?
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Recently replaced my fuel filter,
Shimmed the govnor about 5mm, think it needs to be solid?
Solid causes this ;). Ask me how I know.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/84%20Jetta/20120729_212338.jpg)
Would a lift pump help?
Always a good idea, even on a fresh pump. If you ever run out of fuel, or have any issues regarding loss of prime.. you'll thank yourself largely.
Keep it around 4-7psi, and you'll be perfect. I personally run a 5psi puller/pusher so to speak lol. Pulls from the tank and through the filter to keep the electric pump safe and then pushes to the pump.
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Cheers,
Thanks for the advice....much appreciated....
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What low pressure pump is good to get?
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Oh, got to ask....
Nozzle upgardes...now i know a lot of you will say dont bother on an idi but put that aside...
What is out there in terms of an upgrade?
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GTD
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So a solid shim caused this? Over how many miles? I made a solid shim but have not installed it yet. Do you advise against solid shims now? Will you be updating your gov mod thread?
Shimmed the govnor about 5mm, think it needs to be solid?
Solid causes this ;). Ask me how I know.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/84%20Jetta/20120729_212338.jpg)
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Are GTD nozzles larger than Peugeot XUD?..
Mine are DN0SD306
If that means anything..
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I don't think it has to do with "bigger" as the mercedes nozzles are bigger. I think it is the way it atomizes fuel...and they cost 10x more for the GTD.
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the number on the nozzle has to do with the spray pattern, not the flow rate..
peugeot and mercedes injectors have the wrong shaped spray pattern for a VW pre-chamber..
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So a solid shim caused this? Over how many miles? I made a solid shim but have not installed it yet. Do you advise against solid shims now? Will you be updating your gov mod thread?
Well come to think back on it, I did have a modified control lever as can be seen, so things were at a different geometry than stock.. Maybe 6000kms on that lever before it broke. Honestly, I'd only shim it about 5 or 6/32's that is what I did to my bros AAZ for a trial and it runs NAILS.
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i put xud 1.9td injectors in my 1.6 td golf and she ran sweet, beter than the std vw injectors i had in
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i put xud 1.9td injectors in my 1.6 td golf and she ran sweet, beter than the std vw injectors i had in
i bet some nice rebuild OEM vw injectors would have ran BETTER..
im gonna say it again.. the pug/merc injectors are the WRONG SPRAY PATTERN for the VW pre-cup..
ive seen the pre-cups in the pug and merc engines.. they are HUGE compared to our dinky lil things..
so, i imagine the spray pattern is huge as well, to match the cup..
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i put xud 1.9td injectors in my 1.6 td golf and she ran sweet, beter than the std vw injectors i had in
i bet some nice rebuild OEM vw injectors would have ran BETTER..
im gonna say it again.. the pug/merc injectors are the WRONG SPRAY PATTERN for the VW pre-cup..
ive seen the pre-cups in the pug and merc engines.. they are HUGE compared to our dinky lil things..
so, i imagine the spray pattern is huge as well, to match the cup..
i don't know what style cup the pugs had but the mercedes injectors shoot all the fuel at this hot ball of metal in the center of the prechamber. i think the mercedes nozzles probably have more of a direct straight shooting prechamber. the swirl chamber we have doesn't need such a spray pattern, for us probably the best thing is just that it sprays evenly and atomizes decently.
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i put xud 1.9td injectors in my 1.6 td golf and she ran sweet, beter than the std vw injectors i had in
i bet some nice rebuild OEM vw injectors would have ran BETTER..
im gonna say it again.. the pug/merc injectors are the WRONG SPRAY PATTERN for the VW pre-cup..
ive seen the pre-cups in the pug and merc engines.. they are HUGE compared to our dinky lil things..
so, i imagine the spray pattern is huge as well, to match the cup..
i don't know what style cup the pugs had but the mercedes injectors shoot all the fuel at this hot ball of metal in the center of the prechamber. i think the mercedes nozzles probably have more of a direct straight shooting prechamber. the swirl chamber we have doesn't need such a spray pattern, for us probably the best thing is just that it sprays evenly and atomizes decently.
pugs had almost identical precups to the merc.. least the 504/505 pugs (XD2(s) engines..
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the pug injectors have DNS 0251 nozzles btw..
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i ran Mercedes nozzles on my 1.6,but to use veg oil without much strain (being the hole bigger) but i haven't feel gains or loss in performance.
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Most everyone on here before running merc nozzles said that there was no increase in power and much smoke.
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No,
Youre thinking of the very old Peugeot diesel engines, that may have been sold over the pond,
The XUD range is the last of the Mechanical injected Peugeot diesel engines, after that they moved onto Common rail in a DW engine,
The XUD uses a Swirl chamber rather than a Mercedes prechamber (which is exclusive to them as it was designed by them) the swirl chamber in question is a "Ricardo Comet" design which would seem to be the same as the VW, BMW and Toyota siwlr chamber, and the standard nozzles are definatly the DN0SD306
I have seen some rather enormous nozzles for the screw in type injectors but no idea where to get them, and the guy I know who had them has no intention of sharing his information.
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No,
Youre thinking of the very old Peugeot diesel engines, that may have been sold over the pond,
The XUD range is the last of the Mechanical injected Peugeot diesel engines, after that they moved onto Common rail in a DW engine,
The XUD uses a Swirl chamber rather than a Mercedes prechamber (which is exclusive to them as it was designed by them) the swirl chamber in question is a "Ricardo Comet" design which would seem to be the same as the VW, BMW and Toyota siwlr chamber, and the standard nozzles are definatly the DN0SD306
I have seen some rather enormous nozzles for the screw in type injectors but no idea where to get them, and the guy I know who had them has no intention of sharing his information.
BIGGER NOZZLES are not needed in a VW diesel!
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wont the stock ones deliver the fuel needed?
is there a benefit to fit bigger nozzles even if the fuel output by the pump is the same?
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@R.O.R
Im not talking about a VW diesel mate, its my peugeot diesel which is similar in design to your AAZ
Bigger nozzles might not be needed but it thats not what Im asking,
Putting that aside, does anyone know of any bigger nozzles?
@carrizog,
Maybe but a specific hole size can only flow up to so much... Seeing as though asking for more than double the power (and probably more than double the fuel) the standard nozzles will become an issue and i want to know what my options are should the time comr
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@R.O.R
Im not talking about a VW diesel mate, its my peugeot diesel which is similar in design to your AAZ
Bigger nozzles might not be needed but it thats not what Im asking,
Putting that aside, does anyone know of any bigger nozzles?
@carrizog,
Maybe but a specific hole size can only flow up to so much... Seeing as though asking for more than double the power (and probably more than double the fuel) the standard nozzles will become an issue and i want to know what my options are should the time comr
idk how a Pug engine is set up, but on a VW, the injectors flow more fuel than the engine is ever capable of burning..
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Info from a 306 specific forum, several people have now used dv's from a Nissan Terrano pump and found it much better, how I'm not sure as I'm yet to investigate myself. The first fella that did it mentioned that the hole in the peugeot dv's is tiny and hence provides a restriction, the terrano valves are larger and hence produce less restriction.
Hope this helps!
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Thank you very much sir! You are very helpful, ive looked over loads of 306 and french forums and not found anything on the subject before....but ill have a look...
Ive bought an Iveco 2.8td pump pump number ending 171, can i use the delivery valves from this? They look to be bigger but of a different design and i cant part the holder from the valve.. any ideas?
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Have a good read through the 9mm vs 11mm thread on oc and you'll see all the info!
With regard to the iveco valves, its something I don't know much about but I know if you do a 11mm conversion you do NOT use the transit valves, they may be longer or something. Hoping to get to a pump specialist near me in the next few days to see what he has!