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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: vegaspassat on July 14, 2012, 11:20:22 pm

Title: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: vegaspassat on July 14, 2012, 11:20:22 pm
Hey guys, long time lurker-first time poster here.

 I just replaced the 1.5D in my rabbit with a 1.6D and now the 1.6 won't start. I put a new 3 notch head gasket in it because my protrusion ranged from .93mm to 1.2mm. I also had the head partially rebuilt. Before I had the head redone, the previous owner had a 2 notch head gasket in it and once I put it in my rabbit, it wouldn't start unless the IP was timed 180 degrees out :screwy: - that's why I took the head to a machine shop. They adjusted the intake and exhaust valve lash, replaced all of the exhaust valves and milled a VERY small amount off the head surface (.003" they said). The 1.5 I took out started right up every time, but it had low compression (around 250 in each hole) and now that i have the 3 notch head gasket in the 1.6 I range between 380 and 500, but it still won't run :banghead: Is it because the IP and injectors are different from the 1.5 to the 1.6?? Or do I need to rebuild my IP/injectors? Any help is appreciated!

Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: One_punchmachinegun on July 15, 2012, 12:01:09 am
 IS there smoke when cranking? Because when I put the TD engine in my car I didnt plug in the shut off solenoid and there was no go. Dont know if that helps, maybe give a few more details of what is going on when cranking it over, or anything that comes to mind.
 
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: vegaspassat on July 15, 2012, 12:16:46 am
yeah lots of black smoke. it will run if I floor it, but not easily. and it will not start if I don't touch the throttle. I forgot to say that I've timed the IP 3 times and every time it comes up correct at .032"
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: One_punchmachinegun on July 15, 2012, 05:48:49 am
when it is running when you have it floored is it sputtering or anything. How does it sound when it is started and running with it floored?
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: theman53 on July 15, 2012, 08:09:41 am
Time it to .040" or close thereby.
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: vegaspassat on July 15, 2012, 10:56:08 am
I'll try to get a video up of it tonight
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: 8v-of-fury on July 15, 2012, 11:57:14 am
"0.032 is wayyy low. 1.6 non turbo i would also say 0.040" would be much better spot.
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: burn_your_money on July 15, 2012, 01:11:04 pm
it wouldn't start unless the IP was timed 180 degrees out

Rebuilding the head will not correct this problem. Rebuilding the pump will. You'll probably have to retime the pump 180 out to get it to run. Whether it is 180 out or not, you will be able to achieve the 0.90-1.00mm advance spec you are aiming for. Once you have confirmed that the pump is 180 out and it runs fine, there will be no negative effects. There is not a NEED to have the pump rebuilt.
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: vegaspassat on July 15, 2012, 10:16:05 pm
I'm not understanding.....you're saying that it's ok for the pump to be 180 degrees off?

edit: the battery on my camera is dead and I spent all day out at the lake so I don't feel like doing anything else tonight. I'll try to get a video up tomorrow
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: JamesT on July 16, 2012, 11:03:34 pm
if the plunger has been installed incorrectly (pin not in line with the keyway), it will run when the timing is set 180o out. Because this doesn't affect any operation of the pump aside from which port is exposed at which point of rotation, it can continue to operate like this without any ill effects, provided that you and all future owners and repairmen are aware of this. The timing can still be adjusted using the normal procedure because plunger lift is the same for every 90o of pump rotation.
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: vegaspassat on July 17, 2012, 12:11:28 pm
No I meant the pump was actually 180 out. I cracked the line on number one and cranked it by hand and it spit mfuel out when it when everything was at TDC compression, but would only run if the pump was 180 out from that position. In any case it doesn't matter because I found out what was wrong. I feel like SUCH an IDIOT!! The gauge I'm using is a friend's and he said that it was standard and not metric. I just took his word for it, but I was looking at it yesterday and the damn thing is metric!! I've been timing it to .32mm not .032 inches!!! So I set the IP timing to .90mm and it runs. Now the problem I have is a misfire when it's cold and lots of white smoke unil it warms up after about 2 minutes. Then it runs like a champ. The bently says it should be set at .83, do you think if I back the timing off a little it will take care of the white smoke and misfire?
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: 745 turbogreasel on July 17, 2012, 12:34:53 pm
protrusion ranged from .93mm to 1.2mm.

That's a lot of variance, did something bad happen in the lower holes?
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: burn_your_money on July 17, 2012, 12:50:01 pm
Time it to 1.00mm and see what happens. Some people have had to time old pumps all the way up to 1.15+. Usually 1.00mm will do it though.
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: vegaspassat on July 17, 2012, 01:25:35 pm
ok thank you! I will try that as soon as I get home from work today. I need to put a new valve cover gasket on it anyway because the new one is leaking already and I just put it on last night. Are the vlave cover gaskets supposed to be put on dry? Or with silicone?
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: 745 turbogreasel on July 17, 2012, 02:28:04 pm
A dab of goo at the cam seal corners.
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: JamesT on July 17, 2012, 06:48:37 pm
Are the vlave cover gaskets supposed to be put on dry? Or with silicone?

(http://www.shopthedude.com/filedb/6/8/25486.jpg)

I don't like my oil exposed to silicone.
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: vegaspassat on July 17, 2012, 10:20:54 pm
So I didn't have time to retime the pump tonight but I stopped at the autozone and picked up another valve cover gasket. When I got back in the car and started it up I blipped the throttle to get rid of the charging light and it started to run away!! I turned off the key and it shut down, but it still scared the *** out of me. So without it running I stomped on the accelerator pedal twice and started it without issue. Time for a rebuild on the pump you think? Or does it just need to be advanced/retarded?
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: JessaBug on July 18, 2012, 07:59:39 am
I range between 380 and 500

As pointed out over on the 'tex, that is quite the range. 120psi differences between cylinders is out of spec. I think its supposed be only 60psi or so.
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: libbydiesel on July 18, 2012, 08:17:59 am
No I meant the pump was actually 180 out. I cracked the line on number one and cranked it by hand and it spit mfuel out when it when everything was at TDC compression, but would only run if the pump was 180 out from that position.

That defies the laws of physics.
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: vegaspassat on July 18, 2012, 10:02:52 am

As pointed out over on the 'tex, that is quite the range. 120psi differences between cylinders is out of spec. I think its supposed be only 60psi or so.

From what the bently says it's can't be more than 60 psi from cylinder to cylinder, and I want to say the max between cylinders was like 40.
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: JessaBug on July 18, 2012, 10:37:36 am
Yes, and from cyl x with 380 to cyl y with 500, that is a 120 psi difference. Its across all cylinders, not just adjacent ones.
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: vegaspassat on July 18, 2012, 09:14:46 pm
Time it to 1.00mm and see what happens. Some people have had to time old pumps all the way up to 1.15+. Usually 1.00mm will do it though.

I checked the timing on the pump and there must be some slack in it somewhere because it was back down to .85, so I set the timing at 1.05 and boy what a difference! It starts up with the slightest puff of white smoke and doesn't misfire at all. I bliped the throttle a couple times and it seemed more than happy to comply. I put had to put a new valve cover gasket on it so following what turbogreasel said

A dab of goo at the cam seal corners.

I'm waiting a little while for the RTV to set before I take her for a spin around the block. Thank you guys so much for your help!! I'll let you know how the test drive goes. Hopefully it pulls as strong as it did yesterday. FWIW I figured out what caused the runaway at autozone the other night - one of the injector hoses on number one was a little too long and caught on the throttle.
Title: Re: new 1.6 won't start
Post by: vegaspassat on July 18, 2012, 11:18:23 pm
after I timed the car to 1.05 it runs AWESOME. The new engine is doing everything it shuold! Thank you everyone for all of your help!