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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: wolf_walker on July 12, 2012, 07:36:41 pm
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OK, new drums, springs, shoes, wheel cyl, brake cables, master cylinder.
I've done this job on caddys half a dozen times before.
This 82, fresh install, power bled, went to adjust the parking brake and had to run the adjuster ALL the way down on the cables.
And the pedal is lower than it ought to be.
I pulled the drums, the auto adjuster was half was and working, I manually snugged them up, slightly better but the e-brake is
nowhere near it's normal behavior. Can you put rabbit shoes on a caddy by mistake even? I don't think so, the part number on the box was right.
The rabbit brake cables are shorter and would have the opposite problem, no? They fit like I remembered they should.
Thoughts?
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Well after sitting here and drinking half the night, I've decided the shoes have to be bad somehow. They are Meyle brand, and there stuff is hit or miss.
The drums are chinese too, but I can't for the life of me believe even the chinese can't machine a damn hunk of metal that wrong, both of them,
and it's from a company with TUV certs, and they really look pretty nice. I'm going to go try and buy any set of 200mm rear shoes I can get hold of tomorrow,
and if I can't I'll order a set of Febi's like I've used the last few times. This is stupid and I want to drive my truck.
On and the master cylinder from O'Rieleys, while not $150 like the ATE one, the grommets for the reservoir are kinda ill fitting, only complaint so far.
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got an old shoe you can check the curve against?
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Nah I tossed em like a dummy, quick glance they looked right, fit right, but there isn't a lot of room for error in there, the wear limit on the drums is 1mm for instance.
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New shoes, wonder why it is the two differ like that.
I hate trying to get parts sometimes.
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usually because there is a front one and a back one.
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The back one is always the arm for the emergency brake.
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No, look close. They should be mirror images of each other, left and right. They are cast differently.
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Well the back shoes only fit on one side and I think the front shoes can interchange.
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Yeah but the metal shoe backing is cast differently. I haven't taken measurements on them to compare yet, but look where the cross bar for the adjusters fits in. The slots are different. Different where same should be worries me.
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Tru-dat. lol That is a worrisome thing.
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all 4 are different due to that.. the adjuster wedge hits it...
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Yes it does, but they should be pretty much mirror images left and right, or should be.
Also, just noticed my new master cylinder, the reservoir does not fit in the damn gromets, it wiggles up and down. And leaks. Sigh.
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Still scratching my head on this.
Both sets of shoes are about the same contour and such. Also of note the autozone shoes have the wrong e-brake arm on them, I've seen that problem before.
But they are of the same basic dems as the set I have on there.
I shimmed the wear points on the cross bar for the hell of it, there was some improvement but the adjusting wedge STILL drops half it's travel on the first application of the brakes, and the parking brake STILL requires ALL of the adjusting thread to get the brake to work. The drums measure out at 199.75mm ID, the shoes look to be right unless both sets are wrong, the cross bar does not seem to be worn THAT much, the backing plate looks to be correct, I see no wear on the lower pivot, I can't see how the wheel cylinder would effect the at rest position or the e-brake, the cables are new Coife pickup cables. I'm about stumped. I think I can shim the upper bar, and the lower pivot, and get them to a useable state, but I really really don't dig that idea.
If anyone had a new caddy parking brake cable they'd be willing to measure, and/or a drum brake pulled apart handy they could measure a few things for me I'd appreciate it.
Something is wonky...
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get some of the red raybestes shoes... ive seen this issue with old drums and new shoes... the raybestos ones are thicker matrial and help... will not work with new drums though... too thick..
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The drums are new, 199.75mm ID, no lip so I pretty well trust my measurement. 201.5mm is worn out so they should be just peechy.
There might be half a mm diff in the thickness of the two sets of shoes I have. I'm going to order another set of Febi's I've used before
I guess, and maybe another set of Gemo brake cables if I can find any. Running out of ideas.
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Here's another puzzle piece.
I replaced the wheel cylinders, shoes, drums, bearings, cables, and it still isn't right.
I have a photo I took of the previous parts, and the adjuster wedge was all the way down,
but there was plenty of brake shoe left. PO says He can't remember exactly but last time
he did rear brakes, and he's plenty experienced, he couldn't get them to adjust right either
regarding the e-brake, and the pedal has always been low.
So it's completely possible that replacing all this stuff with new, did not fix the problem, whatever it is.
So what the hell could it be? I'm out of stuff to replace short of the damn brake backing plate, and the lower
pivot point does not look worn. The crossarm between the shoes on the top shows some wear where the
e-brake arm contacts and the adjusting wedge moves, but it isn't excessive, and plus I shimmed both sides
and it might have helped a little but I think it was addressing a symptom not a problem.
So weird.
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I don't know if they are different but maybe you have a 180mm crossarm on there
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They are different, and it's obvious, it's a 200mm piece. Good guess though.
Another maybe-puzzle piece.
My brake pedal at rest height is way, way lower than the clutch.
Higher than the throttle, but still way lower.
The pushrod is non-adjustable under the dash.
It has what feels like 5-7mm of free play which is about right I believe.
But it's just low, I don't see anything bent, and no way to adjust either the
clutch down or the brake up.
Curious no?
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someone will one day make thicker/wider wedges... LOL...
adjustment on a 81-84 westy is between master and brake booster i think... the rod adjusts there.. well ball on the end of rod..
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also.... quick is it rer brake test...
using some vicegrips... pinch off.. not crush... the rear rubber brake lines.. if pedel goes up its in rear brakes.. if still low.. not the issue..
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There is an adjustment there, I can't find a spec for the later A1 for the length of that rod, logic says it ought to at rest almost touch the master cylinder inner piston, but not quite.
I plan to measure and futz with it when my, leaking, new master cylinder is off again. I did notice it was adjusted out a good ways when I glanced at it before.
This isn't going to effect the brake pedal position at rest I don't think but it might have some benefit.
And roger that on the rear brake test, I have plugs for the master cylinder for checking that I usually use. I don't doubt that's where the long pedal travel is too much, I shimmed up one drum at the e-brake contact point on the cross bar and on the adjuster side out of curiosity and it did improve the pedal. It just don't explain why there is so much room between the damn drum and the shoes...
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Got some Febi shoes in and some FTE wheel cylinders, going to put them on this evening hopefully.
Interesting the wheel cylinders are aluminum, haven't seen that before but they seem to list all the right specs for them.
They also have one mounting bolt, and have a slip of paper mentioning that it's ok lol.
The shoes are noticeably better made, and they all match like they should, and the linings aren't bonded on crooked like the other two pair...
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any updates?
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Not yet but hopefully tomorrow.
I got the german wheel cylinders and german shoes installed and un-bent the cable guide on my hand brake lever and it's waiting.
I got in a nice german ATE master cylinder for $180 shipped overnight from the east coast, it's a work of art compared to the reman garbage
I've had two of and looked at several locally from the McParts stores.
My booster seems to check out, I had another fellow kind enough to give me a measurement on the brake pedal rod on his factory 82 booster
and mine seems close near as I can measure with it in the car. I can't account for the lower pedal position than I think it ought to be other than maybe
stacked tolerances and general sloppy 80's american built VW-ness. One day I'll pull the pedal cluster and have my wife weld an extension on the damn
pedal pushrod I guess to get it up where it ought to be. Or swap it all to proper full ATE stuff.
Hopefully tomorrow I'll put the power bleeder on it and see what happens, low pedal or high e-brake or not, I plan to drive it long as it feels safe.
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Oh, and after a lot of measuring and poking and pondering, I lengthened the master cylinder side push-rod about 2mm. There is still plenty of feel-able free play at the pedal before it contacts the master cylinder, my hope it is gained me a little more useable pedal since it seems to be chronically low. I really wish they'd published a spec on the damn thing since it's clearly adjustable for a reason. I believe it could be tighter than it is but I erred on the side of caution.
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Test drive after work, but it's back together.
The rear brakes STILL dropped the adjusting wedge darn near half way right off the bat.
The parking brake STILL required ALL the adjustment available at the handle to function.
In that order.
I shimmed the cable sheath 22mm's at the backing plate and that gave me a good adjustment range.
I power bled the brakes twice, pedal is still low but firm, just like it's been for ages.
As long as it stops reliably I'm going to leave it be for now. Something is fundamentally fubar and I don't know what it is.
I'm remembering why I love old Mercedes.
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Last update, I hope. Test drove and didn't die.
Pedal came up a little after some use, it's still not a Mercedes but hey..
I still don't know the why of the oddness, but it's there, and I'm going to run out of adjustment range on the auto-adjuster
for the rear shoes long before it should, but it's a ways off.
In a few weeks I'll put GTI pads and rotors up front and hopefully forget about the brakes for awhile.
My new balljoints allowed me to feel the little bit of inner tierod play I had much more dramatically, so up goes the front
tomorrow for all that fun. Then finding an alignment shop.
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You always feel the next weak link in the frontend :(