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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: punkvideo81 on June 28, 2012, 12:26:07 pm
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Has anyone taken their 1.6 turbo diesel's ACN (or other) trans and modded the 5th gear for lower rpm highway cruising? .71 is okay, but I want to cruise the highway at 75-80mph without the engine @3500rpm. What does it entail to swap in a better 5th gear? Anyone done it? I think giulianot on here had a .65 in his, and I've tried to IM him about it to no avail. Your help is appreciated. Thanks!
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Has anyone taken their 1.6 turbo diesel's ACN (or other) trans and modded the 5th gear for lower rpm highway cruising? .71 is okay, but I want to cruise the highway at 75-80mph without the engine @3500rpm. What does it entail to swap in a better 5th gear? Anyone done it? I think giulianot on here had a .65 in his, and I've tried to IM him about it to no avail. Your help is appreciated. Thanks!
.71 is the HIGHEST 5th gear that you can get your hands on cheaply.. there are a couple other REALLY RARE higher geared 5th gears, but they are SUPER RARE, and usually cost as much for the gear set, as you would pay for a trans that is tougher with better ratios..
TDI trannies have like 3.16 r&p, and .62? 5th gears..
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I also have a spare FN trans. So, where would I begin to look to find the gearset, and what do you think it might run me?
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Has anyone taken their 1.6 turbo diesel's ACN (or other) trans and modded the 5th gear for lower rpm highway cruising? .71 is okay, but I want to cruise the highway at 75-80mph without the engine @3500rpm. What does it entail to swap in a better 5th gear? Anyone done it? I think giulianot on here had a .65 in his, and I've tried to IM him about it to no avail. Your help is appreciated. Thanks!
.71 is the HIGHEST 5th gear that you can get your hands on cheaply.. there are a couple other REALLY RARE higher geared 5th gears, but they are SUPER RARE, and usually cost as much for the gear set, as you would pay for a trans that is tougher with better ratios..
TDI trannies have like 3.16 r&p, and .62? 5th gears..
The trans you're talking about is the CTN/CHU trans from B3/B4 TDI/VR6 Passats. It has a R&P of 3.157 and a 0.756 5th gear, which equal 2392 RPMs @70mph when assuming stock 185/65/14 wheels on a mk2. However, it's a 02A cable shift/ hydro clutch trans, and while rod shift and cable clutch options and conversions are out there it's a bit of money. You can run the shift cable box, but be prepared to do some cutting to your firewall to get the cables in. You also don't come across a CTN or CHU every day.
Back to the 020, a 0.71 5th in a ACN nets you about 2612RPMs @70 assuming above tire sizes. Your stock 5th in a ACN is 0.75, which is 2759RPMs w/ same speed and tire size. That's 147 RPMs of differenece, not much noticability. Any other super rare high 5ths are be worth more than the trans you're putting them in, as R.O.R. said. That's if you CAN find them . . . .
punkvideo's FN will do 2769RPMs under the same numbers; that's a hair MORE than your stock ratio combo. Not to knock his offer, but It won't net you any noticeable difference.
ADHD version (sorry for the excessive info drop): You're only inches away from the 020's cruising cear 'ceiling'. If you want to install a 0.71 in your ACD, that would be the best option, but you're looking at a small RPM difference. Any lower that that, then look to the 02A trans, which is pricey to acquire, but doable in a Mk2 given the correct parts.
Sorry if my post sounds discouraging, but I'm just trying to lay the info out in a factual manner. In the end, it's your car and your transmission. If you wanna just put a 0.71 in, hunt down a hens-tooth low 020 5th, or go 02A swap crazy, be sure it's the choice you'll think YOU will enjoy. So enjoy your car and happy gearing! ;D
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I do not know how interchangable stuff is from 020, 02a, and 02j...They make a .685 gear for my 02j TDI trans, maybe something like that could be adapted to fit an 020?
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I do not know how interchangable stuff is from 020, 02a, and 02j...They make a .685 gear for my 02j TDI trans, maybe something like that could be adapted to fit an 020?
what about these amish folks you know?
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I do not know how interchangable stuff is from 020, 02a, and 02j...They make a .685 gear for my 02j TDI trans, maybe something like that could be adapted to fit an 020?
what about these amish folks you know?
Didn't know that even amish folks know VW stuff. ::)
And no you can't change 02a/02j stuff into 020. The splines and shaft diameters are different, as is the 5th gear synchro assembly. Also the bolts are secures a little differently. Basically EVERYTHING is different.
Gonna get me a 0.681 5th myself; that way I can cruise at around 2700 @ 70 mph with the shorter wheel/tire combo I want in the future. Tried finding good used 0.717 but no dice; too rare for anyone to either have at regular intervals or have a reasonable asking price.
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Thanks for all the info! Just to set the record straight, the car is an 81 rabbit pickup, not a mk2. Maybe I will pop out the ACN currently bolted to the '91 1.6td and throw in the spare FN I have. I was hoping that maybe someone out there had (or made) a smaller 5th gear that I could simply buy and have installed. Too bad. I do a lot of highway driving in my pickup, and just wanted to have a better 5th gear for quieter and more fuel efficient cruising at 75+mph. If anyone out there has this elusive .65 for an 020, get in touch. Thanks.
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The only thing you could do then is buy that high dollar ring and pinion that GEE BEE did. That and the .71 fifth would get you lower rpm.
I did a 3.42 with / .71 ff final
Dont ask what I paid for the 3.42 new set....
Later...
GB
^ that is what he posted in the other section here.
Also, the amish machine shop guys around here can and will make you anything if you have the money. Most machine shops, and they as well, want multiple piece lots of stuff to do. But these guys will make you one piece and charge a fair ammount, not something super inflated. If I had a 5th set and wanted them to make me another, the one guy would do it. I have no idea how much it would cost, but I know if I needed 1 set, he would do it. Then the real money would come in the heat treat and then taking it to the cryo lady, as they are not the amish and don't do well with one piece.
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I bought a spare 0.71 set off ebay last year to replace my busted acn. Come to find out, the pinion shaft was stripped and the old gear was welded on. Now I have that AND a 0.71 FF but still don't have anything to put in my project! I am hoping to find a decent ACN or something of the like this weekend at the junkyard. I thought that the third, fourth and fifth from my FF would go well with a 3.67 but that 3.42 final drive sounds heavenly!
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Thanks for all the info. I guess I'll track down Gee Bee and see what he has to say.
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I guess when you think about it the lower RB is the best solution; none of the gears will feel too spaced otu with it, and you'll be able to go faster and cruise at lower RPM's. The big downside is that you'll have to split the case and pull it all apart to get to the gears onto the new pinion shaft and the new ring on the diff. Don't forget the hardened diff bolt upgrade. Oh, and Brokevw.com has great disassembly pics!
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Thanks, I checked out brokevw (lots of good info there!) and also found that Gee Bee got his trans from http://vwtransaxles.com/, so I will look into it and see what I can afford to do.
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If it is a trans at or pre 84-85 ish the rivots are OK, this comes from Brokevw not me. What I would do is leave the FF rivots alone if you are going to do one do the later trans OR contact brokevw for a spare carrier that has them drilled and removed already. He has a bunch of parts usually and is willing to sell them to help fellows like us out.
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Yeah I agree w/ theman on that 100%, pick up a good diff middle, put the ring on it and put it in the ACN. Bam, 0.71 5th and gear ratios that work together well instead of something like 4+E. Don't be afraid to ask broke, he's an agreeable dude from what I hear.
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Yeah I agree w/ theman on that 100%, pick up a good diff middle, put the ring on it and put it in the ACN. Bam, 0.71 5th and gear ratios that work together well instead of something like 4+E. Don't be afraid to ask broke, he's an agreeable dude from what I hear.
THE GUY IS SOLID. Just ordered two full seal kits off of him he answered all my questions right away and didn't hesitate to tell me if theres anything else i need just holler at him and he will help.
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1981 VW Pickup: My Caddy.
I used an ASF 020 with 3:67 and replace the .75 with .71. Then I uprated my tires to 15" tires with diameter of 24"
My reason for doing it was that I installed an AAZ 1.9TD and it was revving unnecessarily. Had to install a converter on my speedometer cable to correct the speed, but I am now spot on and GPS and speedometer read the same at all speeds.
I have more acceleration than I had with a 1.6 or 1.6TD and the acceleration seems smoother.
I have owned a VW pickup for the last 30 years, not the same one, but alway have one. I have keep a record of my fill-ups on all them. This is the only one, with the set-up above that made 50MPG over 2000 miles or more average.
Worst I can make it do is 42MPG. For most of my pickups that was my best mileage.
Recommend Broke also on .71 conversions. Missmathed gearsets will be noisy.
Wayne
Has anyone taken their 1.6 turbo diesel's ACN (or other) trans and modded the 5th gear for lower rpm highway cruising? .71 is okay, but I want to cruise the highway at 75-80mph without the engine @3500rpm. What does it entail to swap in a better 5th gear? Anyone done it? I think giulianot on here had a .65 in his, and I've tried to IM him about it to no avail. Your help is appreciated. Thanks!
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Thanks for your input, guys. I might just make an ideal setup out of my ACN and swap in the FN's .71 5th gear. Now I need to figure out how to make the ride smoother than my current rims which are 195 45 16, a day of driving with them leaves you rattled and tired. I do a lot of driving in this truck and need it comfortable.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a390/punkvideo81/1981%20Grey%20VW%20Turbo%20Diesel%20Pickup/IMG_3068.jpg)
Going to old 14 inch GTI snowflakes would take care of the rough ride, but the smaller overall diameter will actually raise rpm's.
I thought that maybe when these tires need replacing, go up from a 45 series to a 60 series. Don't know how well that will work. I have a feeling it might look ridiculously tall. Taller sidewalls would soften the ride, and it would maintain (or even raise) the tall aspect of the tires/rims, which would keep rpms low.
What do you think?
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175/65 R14 is a good size to run on snowflakes; good contact pattern, only 0.1" taller than your current setup, and the sidewall is taller like you want. But just wondering, what is your suspension setup like? And what do you set your tire pressures to? I know they are low profiles, but these other parameter can mildly to drastically affect your ride quality.
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175/65 R14 is a good size to run on snowflakes; good contact pattern, only 0.1" taller than your current setup, and the sidewall is taller like you want. But just wondering, what is your suspension setup like? And what do you set your tire pressures to? I know they are low profiles, but these other parameter can mildly to drastically affect your ride quality.
There are coilovers up front and a flipped axle in the rear backed up by air shocks. I keep the tires filled @ 35psi.
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I do not know how interchangable stuff is from 020, 02a, and 02j...They make a .685 gear for my 02j TDI trans, maybe something like that could be adapted to fit an 020?
NOT EVEN CLOSE to the same..
i wouldnt try and modify an existing hardened gear, i would have a NEW gear set cut if you are THAT desperate..
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IMHO if it was hardend before, then it has a high carbon content. It could therefore be hardend again. I don't know what the differences are. I know some of the later 020 gears had height differeces and they could be swapped after replacing some parts. The hardest machining would be how the gears mesh. I would think if someone could use an already machined gear and turn it to the thickness/grooves needed and the ID/OD needed then heat treat it could work. This is assuming the OD of the gear would even fit in the case and together with the rest of it. Just a thought, not a for sure do this kind of suggestion, but glad to know they won't work at all.
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IMHO if it was hardend before, then it has a high carbon content. It could therefore be hardend again. I don't know what the differences are. I know some of the later 020 gears had height differeces and they could be swapped after replacing some parts. The hardest machining would be how the gears mesh. I would think if someone could use an already machined gear and turn it to the thickness/grooves needed and the ID/OD needed then heat treat it could work. This is assuming the OD of the gear would even fit in the case and together with the rest of it. Just a thought, not a for sure do this kind of suggestion, but glad to know they won't work at all.
once its hardened, its HARD...
im not aware of a way to SAFELY un-temper metals..
HARD metal is HARD to mill!
but, if you have gears cut from billets, THEN hardened, that would be ideal.. and not an afterthought (like trying to make an existing gear set work that is miles from being close..
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If you induction harden something it maybe only hardened for the first .050" or so, maybe not that much. I was thinking if you machine that off then it could be hardened again. Plus anything machined could mess with the temper as well.
Again, not that I said it would work or that it was close. I said maybe it could be done. If it were my project I would definately find out, but since it isn't I am just giving ideas to chase to the person whose it is. Again, glad to know it won't work.
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it is HARD to machine a piece of HARDENED metal..
when you try cutting hardened metal, you need something WAY HARDER to do the cutting..
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Thanks Andy. Talked with Broke, he had good advice. On a related topic - has anyone out there mated a TDI 02a/02j transmission with a 1.6td with any success? I didn't think that was possible.
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I am coming from a long background of petrol vw's
We currently have 3 mk3's 2 petrol and 1 aaz.
The GTi and Vr6 we own would both benefit from a 6 speed conversion, as they are cable boxes with hydraulic clutches there are a few choices.
Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel have you thought about making an adapter and fitting a 6 speed from a mk4 pdi?
Easier to machine an adapter plate rather than splitting boxes. Main query i would have is would it actually fit in a mk1?
Just thinking aloud.
Cheers
Nathan
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whos splitting boxes?
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Thanks Andy. Talked with Broke, he had good advice. On a related topic - has anyone out there mated a TDI 02a/02j transmission with a 1.6td with any success? I didn't think that was possible.
Yes any TDI/4cyl 02a/o2j trans can work, but not any vr6 ones; different angle in bell housings for hood fittment in corrado/mk3 models. Doing this myself w/ a 1.9AAZ, which is similar to a 1.6TD.
To get the trans in:
1.Trans mounts: Google 'MK1 02a trans mounts' and see who does them. Bought mine from WRD(watercooled racing development); Nothing-Leaves-Stock also makes some, Just Caddys in the UK does too. You can build some if you're handy w/ a welder, just make sure the drivetrain is properly orientated for this; lateral and longitudinal angles and all that. The D/S trans mount should have a bracket for clutch cable if you plan on going w/ the stock cable setup. If it doesn't then get a '93 eurovan trans mount and use the bracket off of that, or sandwich the half of the bracket w/ it on into your D/S mount.
2.Shift linkage: Obviously you could use the 02a/02j cables; knock out the blank in the firewall for the auto trans shifter cable and feed them through. That, or route them under the exhaust tunnel, but that sometimes requires cutting. Don't expect to retain your original shift cover parts, unfortunately, as the cable routing doesn't jive with that 99% of the time. If you prefer rod linkage and stock interior, however, clausvonessen.de sells an 02a shift rod conversion kit. Very nice (read:expensive), and has all installation documentation w/ pretty good pictures. Make sure to ask for instructions in english, just in case.
3. Shift cable/hydraulics: For keeping the hydraulic circuit from your 02a donor car; you'll need to modify your original pedal cluster and firewall. The scirocco website funksoulkitty.org has great info on this, as well as some driveline mount info. Keeping it cable? Then get the clutch actuator of the same '93 eurovan you got the cable bracket off of. Unfortunately 02a clutch cables are a bit thin on the ground, so use the cable from a 1991ish CRX (yes a HONDA; I'm sorry). It's a bit long, but you can make it work by either running the excess along the fender or in front of the grille a bit.
4. Axles: Here's where it gets both easy and hard. You can use the 100mm axles from a 16v scirocco as an outright bolt-in solution, but good luck finding them. If that fails, you might try getting some '85-on cabriolet axles. If that fails you'll eigher have to find spindles from a 100mm car and swap them on, or clearance the angle on the outer driveshaft CVs.
TL;DR version: 100% doable, but expect to spend time fabbing and modding parts and/or spending money on conversion parts. I went with the latter of those two as I have 2 left feet and 10 thumbs.
Either way, if you lay your hands on a box you like the GO FOR IT!
And P.S.: nathantheengineer is right about 6-speeding an 02a/j being good mods depending on the box's ratios, but they are MONEY. Expect to give up a few things to afford that; something like, oh I dunno, eating. ::)
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There is one for sale in the UK ( very quick google search) that comes up at £375. also there is a chap up north who does a complete conversion,
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=331943 (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=331943)
However its £1250.
I am sure that people on here are talented enough to manufacture their own fitting kit, not as difficult as compound charging!!!