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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: rs899 on June 25, 2012, 05:04:26 am
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After basically rebuilding the front end of the Jetta (inner/outer tie rods, struts/mounts, ball joints, control arm bushings, wheel bearings) I am getting an occasional initial “clunk” when taking off from start. Can’t really tell where it’s coming from. No clicking noise on tight turns.
At this point, since I didn’t do anything with axles, I am suspecting one of those has gone south.
Used to be the only real choice was to get a rebuilt one, but I am beginning to think that the supply of usable cores is so bad that going that way may be asking for trouble.
I also hear a lot of generally bad news about new Chinese ones.
I also see that I can get Lobro GKN outers for about $60 each ( I assume these are still German?). I am tempted to go that way if I could just get away with doing the outers.
What have been your experiences with axles and CVs lately? Is it worth trying new ones? I have never been impressed with anything the Chinese have made that has to be as robust as a bearing or axle…
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I'd look at a loose motor mount or something on the effect before looking at axles
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Yeah if it is a mk2 the front one is suspect.
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Worth a look. The thing does shake a lot if I don't give it pedal on startup.
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its either the front or rear engine mount. the trans mount is usually pretty quiet..
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Went outside at lunchtime and gave the car a good rock. I don't see anything, but couldn't do much in the parking lot in good clothes.
All mounts are fairly new.
I hope you are right. I don't feel like messing with nasty greasy axles...
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On my mom's car it was the alternator bracket hitting the front crossmember.
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Went outside at lunchtime and gave the car a good rock. I don't see anything, but couldn't do much in the parking lot in good clothes.
All mounts are fairly new.
I hope you are right. I don't feel like messing with nasty greasy axles...
you wont get it to clunk by hand.. you need to start it, and make the noise by going forward or reverse, or whatever it takes..
ive never had an engine mount present its self by rocking the engine. you just KNOW what they feel like, and replace them..
usually axles make noises while turning, not while taking off. bad engine mounts will make noise when taking off. i would suspect the front mount..
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Makes sense.
I am a bit shocked if it is the front mount. It is a German Febi hydraulic, less than 2 years old.
Is that what you guys are using, or do the hydraulic ones crap out quickly?
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I agree, the choice seems to be either remanufactured or built cheaply, by the lowest bidder, in China.
I prefer the remanufactured ones, they are made from OEM parts where applicable and in my experience, last as long as the originals did. When I worked at a parts store, I remember that remanufactured axles were not frequently returned for warranty, though I wonder if that's because the people who owned the car decided it was falling apart at that point and sold it after it started needing things like axles. Rebuilding them myself is just not worth the time, especially since the rebuilt axles are so cheap.
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Hydro mounts are more suspect than non hydro IMHO. I used a G60 front mount solid rubber.
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It popped again on the way home. Left hand 90 degree turn from full stop. Reaaaallly sounded like coming from the right front wheel.
I don't think it was the front mount at all. Didn't really sound like the rear mount either.
It only happens like once or twice a day. Seems like on a left hand from stop. I really hate to have to pay that much attention to it.
As for rebuilt axles...
Rebuilding them myself is just not worth the time, especially since the rebuilt axles are so cheap.
Kind of makes you wonder what they do to "rebuild" them. For example, Autozoo sells a reman one for $40. It's got to cost them that in labor just to take it apart and put boots on and grease it. They can't possibly put a German CV joint on it. They could regroove it and put oversize balls in it, but that would seem to shorten it's life ( when one gets through the case hardening). That's why I was thinking of just buying new Lobro CVs and using the axles I have.
I remember that remanufactured axles were not frequently returned for warranty,
The remaned axles I have on the Rabbit p/u have to be 15 years old with at least 100k miles on them and are still fine. But I just wonder how many decent axles are out there in the rebuild pool that haven't been rebuilt once or twice already?
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When I first was introduced to front wheel drive cars I found that to source out the trouble side of the problem I went to the local college after most were gone. Early evening. I could start the car from the stop and drive a circle to the left then a circle to the right. The loudest side that gave me the banging and the popping won. I think it is harder on the CV to do an inside radius than an outside.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, DAS
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OK . I am getting basically one pretty loud "POP" under these conditions:
Car is cold and has been sitting all day at work.
Start car- go forward a few feet- make initial 90 degree left hand turn
POP - (this time sounded like left wheel?)
Rest of the way home tried to duplicate it, but nada.
Went to abandoned parking lot (car hot) and did various sharp radius turns, stop/starts- nothing. No clicking/popping.
In the morning (car cold) going to work I don't make the same turn (more of a gentle right hander on sand)- no noise.
Any ideas?
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CVs make an obvious clicking sound when they are on their way out.
ORCoaster I believe you are correct. The outer wheel overspeeds and is not being driven by the engine. The inner wheel is doing all the work and therefore if it's going, clicks.
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You have to get the car on a non slip surface when cold. I think you have enough slippage on the sand and right hand turn that you won't hear it then. The pavement won't allow your wheels to slide like the sand does. That is my idea. Idears.
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I replaced my jettas axles with some nice online parts a couple years ago, so about 30,000 miles on them and a week or so ago there is a hairline rip along the clamp area on the inner side, grease exploded all out underneath the whole car just from that little slit. Also noticed some humming wear noises when turning on the freeway with the window down.
Anyway I don't see trauma, just what looks to be cheap rubber with hairline cracks so I have to wonder if modern day rubber is of worse quality. Sure seems that way to me looking at all sorts of parts I have bought so far that have failed over old originals I find at the junkyard?
I just moved on to the autozone stuff, use their reward zone card and its easier to take them in. I have actually been lucky thus far in that they will shift stock around to your local store if they don't have them in stock. Better than me having to pay shipping, wait, then get a return, etc.
Guess I will learn the hard way if their remans are junk :)
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but they also life warentee if you keep the receipt.. not like hard to change...
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Speaking of warranties, AZ found my drivers side axle purchase from 1998 ( on the truck) so I can get another one to use. I have another lifetime warranty at Carquest for the other side.
It popped again, today a couple of times. I am starting to think passenger side ball joint.
I am going to get it up in the air tomorrow and check it over.
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I've been round and round with axles the last few years. Most of them suck. They can and do fail and/or malfunction other than just clicking on hard turns. I have had some really bizarre vibrations and what felt for all the world like alignment or tire or steering component symptoms be caused by damn shoddy rebuilt cv axles. Not to mention boots that last 30K if you are lucky. It is at the moment my considered opinion after buying a dozen sets in the last few years for my vehicles and a few I service, that nobody but GKN/Loebro makes any rubber or joints worth a *** for older VW's. They ain't cheap, but changing axles pisses me off, and crawling all over my front suspension and tires and bugging the alignment guy pisses me off. CV axles have a lot to do with how a FWD car drives.
There is an outfit in the US that I forget the name of that rebuilds them, supposedly well, but I bought new GKN joints and boots for the same price they wanted to rebuild one so I never tried them. People say hey, they are $50 a pop and have a warranty, just change em out, but I think that is BS on a number of levels.
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Yeah, axles are already a nightmare and are going to get worse. Recycled Jack (Parts Place) has a good deal on GLO (Italian made, NOS) CV joints now - 2 for $40. I am thinking of buying some of those, but I do have lifetime warranty on everything now. Problem is, as I said, the stuff is wearing out and your are just going to keep swapping out old bent and worn stuff with the parts stores until you get tired of it.
Back to my problem- self inflicted injury.
Ball joint, sort of. I rebuilt and changed the lower control arms 2 months ago and didn't fully tighten the pass side ball joint (on the spindle). So the spindle has been turning rather than the BJ. I tightened it, but the spindle is worn now and can't clamp the BJ. So, I need another spindle, and unfortunately this is a '91 so it needs to be from an '88 to '92. There MAY be one in town at the boneyard, if I trust their online inventory AND someone else hasn't beat me to it AND it isn't ruined AND I can get it off with the car up on stands...
Update...checking ebay, there are a few knuckles out there for $50ish, but I would like to minimize downtime.
Prothe has one for $27 (nude) and I already have a bearing. Not sure I want to trust my life on that particular item to Chinese metallurgy...
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Not sure I want to trust my life on that particular item to Chinese metallurgy...
Yet you trusted your life and the lives of others knowingly driving around with a unidentifiable clunk from the steering components? heh, true story.
Just saying, China is probably just as, if not more advanced than the good 'ole US of A when it comes "manufacturing".
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Yet you trusted your life and the lives of others knowingly driving around with a unidentifiable clunk from the steering components? heh, true story.
yeah, a couple of days. I am sure people go weeks or months before they get to a mechanic
Just saying, China is probably just as, if not more advanced than the good 'ole US of A when it comes "manufacturing".
They don't do hard steel well, yet
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Lol. Still, a steering clunk means stop driving. Scary siht your dealing with at that point man. Lotta forces going on whilst turning.
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Agreed, but since I had replaced the following in the last month, I wasn't super concerned.
Inner and outer tie rods
Ball joints
Lower control arms
struts/mounts
The only "old" parts ( and they were 2 years old) were the axles and front wheel bearings
I hadn't counted on my own poor workmanship...
Besides , I was still trying to pinpoint the cause and location of the noise.
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I hadn't counted on my own poor workmanship...
Besides , I was still trying to pinpoint the cause and location of the noise.
Im just messin with ya. Was just ironic is all lol.
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Im just messin with ya. Was just ironic is all lol.
Well, use a smiley then next time... :)
Wasted the day chasing down the one available knuckle in the area. The car had the part, but I couldn't get the axle nut off despite standing on it with a 2 foot plus 3/4" breaker bar ( I am 200 pounds) . I guess it will have to be from ebay.
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I can break my axle nuts with a 1.25ft breaker bar, and I weigh 260.
JUMP ! :D
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I had to hang off a 8' cheater bar to crack a axle nut loose once ::) I'm only 170 though
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at least its not a subaru... get nut off.. but hell takes 20 ton press to get the axle out of the hub... myself... is take off balljoint, tierod, strut bolts.. cut boot.. hit joint with hammer to knock it off axle... then take to a shop to have nut removed... better then ebay/shipping..
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I have had to use 6 foot pipes on 2 foot breaker bars in the past. Also have used the starter to pop it off as well. Just have to make sure it is held on square and the foot of the pipe is firmly on the ground. Generally takes two do do this method.
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Unfortunately I was alone, the car was up in the air and 4-500 ft ponds was all I could muster. I had to shove a hardened punch through the lug bolt holes to keep it from moving. Broke that.
I never tighten mine that much -200 ft pounds is the spec, isn't it?
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Update. With no other short term option, I shimmed the ball joint on the knuckle and put it back together. The BJ is now very tight in the knuckle. I had the CV axle out on that side and spun the wheel bearing. Seems fine. The CV axle didn't seem obviously worn. I examined everything pretty carefully. The balljoint felt a little notchy, but not sloppy. Took it for a drive today.
Still an odd pop, usually on a slow left hander. I decided to change balljoints (these are Taiwanese Mevotechs). Autozoo had some for $13 each (lifetime warranty). They had only 2, one was a USA (MOOG) and the other made in Turkey ( probably Febi or supplier of Febi). I will put at least the one (passenger) side on Wednesday and see if that fixes it.
I hate this sort of crap....
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I put a moog ball joint in my jetta IIRC about 20,000 miles and absolutely 0 issues. It is greasable, so I don't expect it to have issues either. It was 50.00 though
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Wow. Zerc fitting? The decline of Western civilization, as we know it, began with the "lubed for life " ball joint. What a concept... >:(
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I didn't even know that anyone made a greaseable ball joint for our cars and Moog makes quality parts, at least in my experience. They may not be well known for VW parts but they definitely have a good reputation among the Ford/Chevy/Dodge guys.
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Yeah I'm a big fan of Moog for my f250
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UPDATE- STILL POPPING...
But now its more start -stop related. I get a faint "clunk" on most normal starts and a pretty loud "POP" on hard braking
I changed BOTH ball joints. I changed BOTH axles. The stupid Mevotech BJs were undersized to spec- they were not 19mm ( not 17mm, either).
I have a set of new motor mounts on the way, but now I am thinking that it might be the passenger lower control arm bolt. It's tight in the hole, but I wonder if somehow the sleeve/spacer is somehow screwed up in the hole and the bushing is just rocking away on the bolt?
I hate this ***....
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Since I posted earlier, I thought I would post an update.
The rubber boots on the axles I installed 2 years ago all just suddenly failed. They looked fine this spring, then they all popped out of nowhere, after exactly 2 years. so I replaced my axles again.
Someone commented that they fear the supply of "good" axle cores is dwindling... When I replaced my axles, I noticed that one of them was marked "ARI." ARI was a company that sold rebuilt auto parts and they went out of business 6 or 7 years ago. They had a lot of quality issues. The axles were supposed to be Cardone, and were in a Cardone box. Cardone bought a lot of the existing ARI stock and repackaged it, I knew this beforehand...
What that means is that the axles, a 90 mm for an early mk2, have been sitting on the shelf, possibly for at least a decade. So there isn't much turnover for parts on our cars which have become less and less common. I don't think there is much demand for old VW Golf parts, so what's out there has probably been around for a while. I couldn't even find a place locally that stocked brake pads or tie rod ends for my car and I had to order them.
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UPDATE- STILL POPPING...
But now its more start -stop related. I get a faint "clunk" on most normal starts and a pretty loud "POP" on hard braking
I changed BOTH ball joints. I changed BOTH axles. The stupid Mevotech BJs were undersized to spec- they were not 19mm ( not 17mm, either).
I have a set of new motor mounts on the way, but now I am thinking that it might be the passenger lower control arm bolt. It's tight in the hole, but I wonder if somehow the sleeve/spacer is somehow screwed up in the hole and the bushing is just rocking away on the bolt?
I hate this ***....
strut bearings?
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strut bearings?
I don't think so...
In the last 3 months I have replaced..
Strut bearings ( Febi- German)
Struts (Monroe OE Spectrum)
Ball Joints (one Moog, one Febi)
Tie rod ends (Pex- German)
Axles (rebuilt)
lower control arm bushings
motor mounts are about 2 years old
It FEELS like there is some wiggling on acceleration which makes me suspect the rear control arm bushing. The bolts are all tight but I am worried one or both may somehow be slopping around on its bolt
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strut bearings?
I don't think so...
In the last 3 months I have replaced..
Strut bearings ( Febi- German)
Struts (Monroe OE Spectrum)
Ball Joints (one Moog, one Febi)
Tie rod ends (Pex- German)
Axles (rebuilt)
lower control arm bushings
motor mounts are about 2 years old
It FEELS like there is some wiggling on acceleration which makes me suspect the rear control arm bushing. The bolts are all tight but I am worried one or both may somehow be slopping around on its bolt
ive had the control arm bolts be replaced on my rabbit, and they made the front end clunk.. always wondered why my alignment was different every time i checked..
OEM bolts have a larger diameter shank than bolts you can buy at the bolt store..
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I replaced everything on my 85 jetta when I got it a couple years back. Can't say I have had your issues and it was aligned at the shop.
Only thing I have experienced is the passenger side rear strut rattles all the damn time, its annoying and I have tried to reseat it and no luck.
On the front end when I pulled out the old control arm bushings they had a collar. When I put the new ones in the place told me there was no collar anymore, just a slap in and bolt design? I took their word for it.
Another annoying thing I get is that jolt when the pedal is stabbed or let off, like the drivetrain is moving. One time by accident I put in a supposed harder tranny mount and noticed that this issue wasn't present anymore, but there was so much vibration into the dash I had to pull it out.
I'm getting rid of the car and want to look into that further because it doesn't seem right. I got whatever http://www.autohausaz.com had listed as stock for my car and rolled with it and no wonder if there is an inbetween choice.
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I went to all poly mounts. They have absolutely horrible reviews on the Vortex, but I have yet to have a problem in 30,000 miles on the 86 and 15,000 on the 01 TDI. They use a bigger bushing for the same stock bolt.
damac: Did you replace the strut bearings?
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Another annoying thing I get is that jolt when the pedal is stabbed or let off, like the drivetrain is moving. One time by accident I put in a supposed harder tranny mount and noticed that this issue wasn't present anymore, but there was so much vibration into the dash I had to pull it out.
My dad's 86 jetta has this same issue; just replaced the control arm bushings, ball joints, and steering rack (all shot to h*ll) to get rid of pretty massive steering wheel shimmy, but clunk is still there. I suspect that it's the strut mount or the rear motor mount, as it's very definitely coming from the passenger side. Interesting that a firmer trans mount took care of the problem for you; makes me lean towards the motor mount. Probably need to replace all the mounts anyway. That car has had sooo many problems ::)