VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 79rabbit4dr on June 18, 2012, 11:34:47 pm
-
Anybody ran an IC on a NA? I obtained one for free at work and I'm thinking about HOW to make it work on my Caddy. It was off a late 90's Passat 1.8t iirc and has those silly c-clip hose fittings. I'll have to pull it back out and snap a pic of what I mean.
Ideas on fitment and/or effectiveness?
-
Just run a bypass valve for when you are not in boost, and you should be all good.
-
topic is Re: IC on NA?
Unless I'm blindly missing some basic information here... the function of an INTERcooler is cooling the turbo-heated air between induction stages, so for an N.A. wouldn't a plain old cold air intake do just as well, or probably even better, since it could have less restrictive intake plumbing than any intercooler setup?
Now, OTOH if you really plan on swapping your TD engine into the Caddy... oh hell, yeah! It might even improve the fuel mileage for a TD, assuming lead-footing is not the common style of driving.
J.R.
SoCal
-
It's pointless to run a IC on a NA because the air the engine is breathing will be the same temperature as the air that is passing through the intercooler. This means that the air won't be cooled at all, therefore giving no gain and probably actually hurting power and mileage because of the restriction that you've just added.
-
like was mentioned, intercoolers are for BOOSTED engines.. no boost = no extra heat in the intake air = no need for an intercooler..
when intercoolers are under VACUUM, they are a big restriction.. they are designed to have air SHOVED thru them..
-
I got bored...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxMckE7P218&feature=youtube_gdata_player
This was done at idle with no air flowing through the fins of the IC.
-
Impressive. Any idea what ambient temp was?
-
it will work great
with one of these
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Turbocharger.jpg/782px-Turbocharger.jpg)
;D
-
I got bored...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxMckE7P218&feature=youtube_gdata_player
This was done at idle with no air flowing through the fins of the IC.
Interesting but let's be scientific u should have a hose on it when ur not using the intercooler that way u can suck air from 2 feet above the engine just like when the intercooler is on
-
The increase in air temp in your video is because with your intercooler you are sucking in cooler air from away from the engine. With the intercooler removed, you're sucking in air right off the engine which is already warmed up. As Trev mentioned, if you had a hose when the intercooler wasn't there so that you were sucking air from the same location, the temp would not increase or decrease. If you try to cool 70° air with 70° air it ends up being 70°.
The air ingested by the engine is ambient temperature and then you're trying to cool it with air the same temperature. The net effect will be NIL. When you boost an engine, the intake air gets compressed to a higher pressure. The higher pressure is what causes the temperature of the air to increase. Without any increased induction pressure your intercooler is an abject waste of time and will accomplish absolutely nothing good.
If you take an extension cord and add a three-way to it, then you can plug it into itself and there will still be two sockets free to power other appliances...
-
If you take an extension cord and add a three-way to it, then you can plug it into itself and there will still be two sockets free to power other appliances...
Do you have a picture? I just tried this but it's not working ???
-
You're not holding your mouth right.
-
You're not holding your mouth right.
and im sure you were not standing on your head while you tried either..
-
Impressive. Any idea what ambient temp was?
I believe it was 68*F
Fair rebuttles.
The engine was not hot, I had just started it and it was idling the whole time (not producing much heat). How about I move the temp probe to the front of the IC then back into the intake tube. That would eliminate any other variables and show JUST the cooling effect of the IC (if there is one on a NA)?
Just thinking out loud.
-
Impressive. Any idea what ambient temp was?
I believe it was 68*F
Fair rebuttles.
The engine was not hot, I had just started it and it was idling the whole time (not producing much heat). How about I move the temp probe to the front of the IC then back into the intake tube. That would eliminate any other variables and show JUST the cooling effect of the IC (if there is one on a NA)?
Just thinking out loud.
there is no point to running an intercooler on a natural aspriated engine. a good cold air intake will do the same damn thing, but with ALOT less restriction.
intercoolers are meant to cool air that has been heated up from being pressurized. intercoolers are meant to have air SHOVED thru them, not sucked thru..
if you could install a intercooler, and get intake temps LOWER than ambient, that would be impressive, and something a cold air intake can not do. but it doesnt work that way. so you are basically just making a RESTRICTIVE cold air intake..
-
I am just going to jump on the bandwagon and confirm that there is no benefit to this. It will make me feel better about the loads of people that are going to give me a hard time for my swiss-cheese "hot air intake" airbox design :D ;) 8)
Other than the fact that hoodscoops almost always look tacky, I think there would be better gains to be had for a NA diesel using the the air pressure moving towards you for a ram air effect instead of trying to use that ram air to chill your IC. What benefits do we have? The fact that our sideways engines would allow that air pressure to go straight down each individual intake runner with little resistance. The IC would certainly add a great deal of resistance! Remember that we are suck, we don' blow. ??? It always seemed to me that airboxes like mine (with the inlet on the side), air would get to cylinder one quicker and easier than it would to cylinder number four. If you are really looking for intake gains it seems like a reasonable place to start. Ram air intake sounds like the poor man's forced induction. Anyone feel free to correct me if my theory sounds misleading.
-
If this thread is a joke, then other ones like the guys who dumped sand int their intake to port their engine, the guy who welded extra fins on his turbo or the guy who cut his wheel off with a sawzall because he stripped a lug were definitely FAR more amusing.
If it is not a joke, then investigate the laws of physics regarding heat. Heat energy ALWAYS flows from a hotter material to a colder one. The way refrigeration works is by manipulating pressures so that a fluid is compressed so it gets hotter than the outside air and then pumped to an exterior radiator so it releases heat to the outside, then the fluid is expanded so it's temperature plummets and it is pumped to a radiator inside where it absorbs the heat in the refrigerator. There is no such magic in an air to air intercooler. It is simply aluminum channels. The ABSOLUTE COLDEST that an air to air intercooler can make the air in the intake tract is to bring it to the ambient temp of the air passing through it's other pathways. Because the air in the intake tract is already at ambient temps in an uncharged engine, there is no way that an intercooler can have any positive effect on a non-charged engine. You are wasting your own time with it. Unfortunately I'm also wasting my time reading about it and responding and I somewhat resent my lack of self-control. I will exit this thread at this point because I have much better things to do with my time.
-
If this thread is a joke, then other ones like the guys who dumped sand int their intake to port their engine, the guy who welded extra fins on his turbo or the guy who cut his wheel off with a sawzall because he stripped a lug were definitely FAR more amusing.
If it is not a joke, then investigate the laws of physics regarding heat. Heat energy ALWAYS flows from a hotter material to a colder one. The way refrigeration works is by manipulating pressures so that a fluid is compressed so it gets hotter than the outside air and then pumped to an exterior radiator so it releases heat to the outside, then the fluid is expanded so it's temperature plummets and it is pumped to a radiator inside where it absorbs the heat in the refrigerator. There is no such magic in an air to air intercooler. It is simply aluminum channels. The ABSOLUTE COLDEST that an air to air intercooler can make the air in the intake tract is to bring it to the ambient temp of the air passing through it's other pathways. Because the air in the intake tract is already at ambient temps in an uncharged engine, there is no way that an intercooler can have any positive effect on a non-charged engine. You are wasting your own time with it. Unfortunately I'm also wasting my time reading about it and responding and I somewhat resent my lack of self-control. I will exit this thread at this point because I have much better things to do with my time.
well put Andrew.. especially the part about the extra fins, and the sand porting. lol. :D
-
I think I can explain the temp readings on the youtube video. There's a good chance that the intercooler is a restriction to the intake causing a slight pressure drop which will also cause a slight temp drop. It would be easy to verify this by redoing the same test and partially blocking the inlet without the intercooler and see if the temp drops in relation to the restriction.
-
Do you feel smarter now? More like a man?
Maybe you should re-read my earlier posts. "Got an IC for free," "bored and messing around." It was something that popped into my head and I went out and did it. Not much thought involved, not trying to prove anything. Thanks for the d-bag response though.
-
Anybody ran an IC on a NA?
You did ask.
-
Sorry, I've read Andrews poss for years and they used to be very thought out and helpful, I'm not sure where his last post was coming from but it belonged in a Honda civic forum somewhere.
-
I think I can explain the temp readings on the youtube video. There's a good chance that the intercooler is a restriction to the intake causing a slight pressure drop which will also cause a slight temp drop. It would be easy to verify this by redoing the same test and partially blocking the inlet without the intercooler and see if the temp drops in relation to the restriction.
Excellent point. So to extend the idea a little further, the extent that the temperature is lowered below ambient is the extent that the intercooler is a restriction, creating negative pressure and hurting performance/efficiency.
-
79rabbit, you asked about adding an intercooler to a non-charged motor, you were told why it was pointless patiently and in detail by myself and others, you persisted and so I logically assumed you were being a troll and responded appropriately. Its unfortunate that you decided to take offense and your feelings were hurt.
-
Sorry, I've read Andrews poss for years and they used to be very thought out and helpful, I'm not sure where his last post was coming from but it belonged in a Honda civic forum somewhere.
dude, THIS THREAD belongs on a civic forum somewhere!! ever think of that?
ask stupid questions, get stupid answers..
what were you expecting bro? were you expecting the intercooler to be black magic, and miraculously cool the intake air lower than ambient temps?
im sorry, but this thread was FULL of FAIL to begin with... andrew was just keeping it real. i completely understood where hes coming from.
intercoolers are for BOOSTED engines.. even the DUMBEST mechanics know that. (even non-mechanic types know that!!)
-
Well, I think there is way to hook up an intercooler to an NA in a beneficial way. If you were to build a box around the intercooler and fill it with ice, you might cool the air down enough to counteract the extra restriction of the intercooler itself. I bet the ice would melt pretty quick though.
-
Lets all take it easy and settle down some.
Most of us learnt something from this thread, therefore proving the successfulness of this forum. For some it was that ICs and NAs don't mix well, for others it was seeing that the IC did actually cool the intake air, although for what reason we aren't 100% sure (cooler ambient air or result of a restriction, or both)
/panty twisting
-
You can get fairly far below ambient by evaporating the right fluid off the IC...
More so at idle than high RPM, but the easiest way to increase power is to increase throttle, so...
-
You can get fairly far below ambient by evaporating the right fluid off the IC...
More so at idle than high RPM, but the easiest way to increase power is to increase throttle, so...
water/meth injection with a cold air intake would yield more power than an intercooler, i would think..
THIS IS ASSUMING THE ENGINE IS N/A..
-
Again, you are making a stupid ASSumption that I was trying to PROVE something... "bro?"
I certainly wasn't offended, just disappointed in the decline of what once was my favorite forum.
Obviously several people were curious about the same thing.
I never said it would/could cool the air any further than the coldest air it could receive, but I wondered if it could help cool the air it was sucking in from a hypothetically hot engine bay. Maybe all it is is the pressure differential but it's fun to explore and learn.
Those of us who don't know everything in the world are still learning. That's what this forum is, or at least WAS, for.
Thanks for trolling MY thread and if you aren't going to build up the group, kindly leave my thread.
-
I've thought about this before. What it comes down to in my opinion is that while running the NA inlet air through an intercooler you will see some temperature decrease (a negligible amount) the added restriction (sucking liquid through an extra long straw will show you this effect) will outweigh the very slight temperature decrease.
And yes, the intake air will be the same temperature as the air cooling the intercooler but the effect i see that the youtube video posted is probably just an example of minimal heat soak vs. drawing through something that easily remains the temperature of the air. There is no way the outside temp was 68F. The intercooler dropped it only 5 degrees F. Certainly enough to just be a heat soaking scenario.
This idea vs. cooling charge air is completely different ONLY and SOLELY because the charge air is actually surprisingly hot especially coming from a hot turbo and engine and warm radiator heating EVERYTHING under the hood. You would see charge air being well over 100+F maybe even close to 200F on long boost periods.
So it's not stupid to think adding an intercooler MIGHT be beneficial because yeah i suppose it is if you are only idling the engine but under any load and if you ran any length of plumbing to the cooler ... the -'s would outweigh the +'s probably 10 fold.
-
sorry, but when you ask stupid questions, you should expect stupid answers, even if YOU think the question you are asking is not stupid..
-
sorry, but when you ask stupid questions, you should expect stupid answers, even if YOU think the question you are asking is not stupid..
Hahaha! That's funny................................but true!
-
sorry, but when you ask stupid questions, you should expect stupid answers, even if YOU think the question you are asking is not stupid..
Hahaha! That's funny................................but true!
lol, believe it or not, a fairly wise person taught me that saying..
-
sorry, but when you ask stupid questions, you should expect stupid answers, even if YOU think the question you are asking is not stupid..
So that makes YOU stupid and ME inexperienced. I'm ok with that.
-
The responses are getting too far to the side of antagonistic. Ease off eachother. It is not the point to not flame as much as Vortex so we are ok, the point is to give people answers without flaming at all. We are better than them over there because of this. So for all involved try to not get too aggresive with the responses, as sometimes less is more.
My .02
I ask a ton of questions, and a ton more questions to things I already know the answer to. Why? Because collectively we should all be smarter than one of us. You get some wild answers, but sometimes you find that turd blossom that you never would have thought of, or wouldn't have thought of it until someone else sparked new directions in your mind. During this you can also find out whom it is that is completely full of SH...stuff, if you are asking a question you know the answer to that is. I always say there are no stupid questions only stupid people, not because they ask stupid questions, but because they never learn when they ask.
-
I learn from doing, or watching it be done. Not from someone trying to prove their superiority online. That's why I'm still going to test vacuum at that same port with and without the IC. I'll also test the temp at the inlet of the IC compared to that port. Not because I don't believe what was said, and certainly not because I'm trying to prove something, I just want to solidify this info in my mind from my own experience.
-
The stock N.A. Rabbit & Dasher were pretty piss-poor at bringing cool air into that constipated little intake plenum. With the ABS & PVC plumbing readily available, it shouldn't be too hard to fab up a decent cold air intake just a little larger in diameter, that wouldn't increase the intake noise that much. That's the direction we took with our '77 Rabbit 1.5N.A. & it seemed to get a bit better mileage on road trips. Power? Dunno... hard to assess the difference between 48 and 49 hp(!), and we never had it on a dyno.
J.R.
SoCal
-
The stock N.A. Rabbit & Dasher were pretty piss-poor at bringing cool air into that constipated little intake plenum. With the ABS & PVC plumbing readily available, it shouldn't be too hard to fab up a decent cold air intake just a little larger in diameter, that wouldn't increase the intake noise that much. That's the direction we took with our '77 Rabbit 1.5N.A. & it seemed to get a bit better mileage on road trips. Power? Dunno... hard to assess the difference between 48 and 49 hp(!), and we never had it on a dyno.
J.R.
SoCal
this is what most people do. its much easier, and doesnt add a bunch of complex piping..
i KNOW an intercooler on a n/a DOES NOT WORK RIGHT.. my buddy put an intercooler on his factory stock DIGI jetta, and it TOOK LOTS OF POWER away..
it was a QUITE BIG difference.
CHARGE AIR COOLERS are for engines that are BOOSTED (read as positive pressure)
when you apply vacuum to air, it cools the air.
so, yea, the intercooler is going to cool the air ALOT going down the road, because its going to be a HUGE restriction..
-
quit trying to put a CHARGE COOLER on something that is NOT CHARGED
Why are you telling him not to experiment and try new things? We (and he) already know that it will/may cool the air (slightly) but that it will decrease power... But maybe in his tinkering he'll discover something cool and useful. Maybe from what he figures out will give someone to an idea to put a butterfly valve in the intake to better control a VNT, or come up with a nifty idea for bypassing the IC when it's not needed on a boosted engine, or maybe he'll find nothing useful other then the satisfaction of fiddling around with his car and getting his hands greasy. Maybe he'll even find a couple of glowplug nuts that fell off behind the vacuum pump last time he changed the glowplugs!
-
I am surprised that this is even being discussed, especially if the OP has been "reading Andrew's post's and this forum for years".
Still amusing nonetheless. Burn-your-money is right though, unconventional ideas sometimes yield unexpected results. Just not very often.
-
I am surprised that this is even being discussed, especially if the OP has been "reading Andrew's post's and this forum for years".
Still amusing nonetheless. Burn-your-money is right though, unconventional ideas sometimes yield unexpected results. Just not very often.
lol... yup.
-
Well, it's always handy to have extra glowplug nuts in the toolbox...
-
Well, it's always handy to have extra glowplug nuts in the toolbox...
on my car, those mystery missing glow plug nuts dont last more than 1-2 drives..
-
Well. I have more questions. What did I do wrong?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsQQ-0IYZfw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Sorry for the shaky-cam.
-
your connections are nowheres near air tight. when you put your hand over the air intake snorkel, it should KILL the engine, not register a small 5" vacuum..
the engine is barely sucking air thru the intercooler, its just sucking air thru all the leaks.
please dont get mad, im just pointing out whats wrong.
you dont have hose clamps anywhere, just parts set together..
and another thing that i dont think anyone has mentioned, is that when wind (intake air) has enough velocity, the temps DROP..
think wind chill factor.. i think that the air rushing past the probe may cool the probe to a lower temp than ambient..
-
Well. I have more questions. What did I do wrong?
I don't understand what you are asking. Did you expect different results than what was shown in your video?
-
I don't understand what you are asking. Did you expect different results than what was shown in your video?
I have expected, from the beginning, that an IC on a NA would yield little to no benefits. From what you guys have said, it should have proven to be a "huge restriction." But I haven't seen that happen.
I put the boost pressure sensor back in (simply to plug an open hole), clamped the hose on the intake and tried again, same results.
I pulled the IC back off and held my hand as tight as I could over the intake for 20 seconds or so and got 10inHg (I am at 5,000' btw) and that was nearly collapsing the intake tube at its oval point and it still ran fine.
Aren't these engines capable of sucking air and/or fuel from everywhere to keep running?
Would someone else please check vacuum in their intake with hand over the intake. Does your engine stall/die?
I know diesels don't normally have vacuum in the intake. I'm wondering if I have an intake leak and that is what is throwing this off.
-
Aren't these engines capable of sucking air and/or fuel from everywhere to keep running?
Would someone else please check vacuum in their intake with hand over the intake. Does your engine stall/die?
I know diesels don't normally have vacuum in the intake. I'm wondering if I have an intake leak and that is what is throwing this off.
Please DO NOT attempt to choke off the air supply on a diesel engine with your HAND or any other part of your body.
You can collapse a 55 gal drum with less than 15" of vacuum. Many years ago I put my hand over the intake of a Isuzu pup 2.2 diesel to see
how much air it was inhaling at idle. The engine never died, but the idle dropped way down. I thought I was going to lose some skin on that one.
As mentioned earlier I would imagine there is some air coming in around the plastic filter housing, snorkel and possibly the rings when you cover the intake tube.
-
my engine DIES when i put my hand over the intake. but then again, im turbo'd, and i have a much different intake setup.. but my engine trys to pull the skin off my hand, and then shortly there after, dies..
i imagine if i had the crank case vent hooked up, it wouldnt die, just about tho.. might even start sucking oil and run away..
thats another thing to think about dude. what if that cooler is a big enough restriction? and you are running it, and you give it throttle, and it starts sucking the crank case dry...