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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Monoaural on June 06, 2012, 11:53:05 am
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I just picked up an 81 Caddy. Engine code CR. Previous owner said the owner before him put a new/rebuilt motor in it, and then it sat. With a lot of priming, and a shot of ether, she fired up. Instantly pressurized the coolant system, so retorqued head (has 12pt head bolts, which are gas, I believe). The bolts broke free with ~30ft/lbs, so I feel good about redoing that. Got it running again, (off of fresh diesel in a separate tank). Pump wasnt holding prime, and was leaking from what looks like the timing belt gear. Ran it off ATF, and it stopped spraying diesel everywhere. Decided to run it off its own tank, and run down to the station for new fuel. Runs ok, much quieter than off of the ATF, but no power. No difference between half and full throttle, and I am not sure if it can get to 55mph. I had a 80 with a 1.5 and FF trans that could exceed 80mph(if you were patient.)
Added some diesel clear (about 2oz) to the tank before I filled it up with new stuff. I am assuming the fuel in the tank lines up with when it was non-oped six years ago, but the PO said work was done on it two years ago.
Did just notice that I smashed the return braided line going from the out bolt to the injectors. There was white smoke with the ATF, but I don't see any smoke with the old diesel.
My thoughts: Old diesel doens't have the bang of the new stuff, and it will take a while for the new stuff to get there, but only 50% of the power? Clogged intank filter, which would be bad news, since now I have a full tank. Bad pump timing, since the head wasn't bolted on properly, I doubt they had it timed correctly either.
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/545173_3748868313624_292495818_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/543175_3765834057757_1033806912_3402923_1425424525_n.jpg)
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If there was fuel spraying out from behind the pumps timing gear, then the seal and two brass bushing in the pump need replacing. It is easy to replace the seal, but you need to completely take the pump apart. However it will soon leak again after you put the pump back together.. as the brass bushings (which are not easy to replace) will cause the seal to deform in short order.
It needs a rebuild or replacement. The timing belt was likely WAY over tensioned for much of this pumps life at some point.
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I would throw on a clear line on the out banjo and see if your seal in front is filling your pump with air. You may not be getting all the fuel you need to the injectors in or for you to attain that skin peeling off your face speed that this baby is going to make.
Other items might be the position of the accelerator lever to the shaft that it bolts on to. Did the PO say anything about messing with those levers?
Timing check surely in order.
If you have run ATF in it did you let it set at all to clean injectors and other internal parts of the pump.
If you have a separate jar, tank or bucket that you can use to measure the amount of flow out of the pump do that at a slight Idle. 1000 RPMs You should capture about a liter of fuel in a minute. No make that 14 ounces. If not then you may need to tap on the pressure regulator on the engine side of the IP. Process buried in this forum elsewhere.
That is what I would be hitting on first and is more than you probably want to do right now. I know, you just want to drive it. When I first saw the picture I thought about the local white Caddy I looked at a couple of weeks ago. A real project car, needs it all done. Engine, trans, interior, floorboards, windshield and seats. To much for me to handle right now. It was still sitting in the carport where I looked at it so I don't think he was able to unload it. He didn't want big money for it, just wanted it gone.
Later DAS
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In addition to the obvious fuel issues, verify IP and valve timing and check valve lash. Based on the head gasket experience, why assume these are right ?
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Found an injection pump. Model #068-190-107-A. Would this work for me?
And I will check the timing. Didn't hold the prime over night. Also didn't let the ATF sit, I still have some left, I think i am going to try to let it sit.
More and more I feel like I want to find a turbo motor.
How would I make a clear return?
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Well to make a clear return line you can either buy a section of clear line that would go from the Out Banjo to just under the fuel filter. I think 3 feet would do but I just bought 4 tonight of some solid black able to withstand diesel type fuel line. I have a different set up then your stocker only because of a recent install of a WVO system. I needed a few more inches and didn't care for a splice so I just went for the full 4 footer. But I think you could do it with 3.
Another way is to buy one of those inline glass filters that have the replaceable screens in them. They will probably cost the same as some clear line about 8-9 dollars. Put clamps on either end of it to keep it from making a mess in the engine bay if it goes to leaking.
Either way this will give you some idea of air coming out of your pump. I like to run clear lines both in and out at the banjos just so I know if air is coming in from the inlet or a seal in the pump is gone and how much air is it all about. I just flipped my switches on the WVO system tonight and getting ALL the air out will take some driving time I think. I have the outlet recirculating the WVO to the inlet and those tiny bubbles are going to be hard to get rid of. When I purge the WVO out and back down the lines the diesel clears the bubbles out in a hurry. It has a return to the tank.
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Let it set two days with ATF in it. It stopped pooling up on the timing gear. Got excited, threw it back on diesel, and let it idle for a bit. It smoothed out, and primed it self, so I took it around the block. By the time I got back in the driveway, completely lost prime, and spraying via the timing gear. There is less than a half inch of deflection on the timing belt. Picked up a smokey 1.5 for a case of beer, so I think I am gonna pull the pump from that one, and throw it on my motor. It looks like it seeps out of the top seal, which is an easier fix, correct? I want to get this thing on the road for the time being, until I find a turbo diesel, or at least a 12mm 1.6 to add a turbo to. If I get antsy, I will turbo the CR motor, and rebuild one of the pumps.
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Top seal is easy to fix but getting the bolts loose can be problematic. I would turbo the 1.5 nothing wrong with that.
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Replacing the shaft seal on your current pump is easier, although more expensive. Like 8v said though, if the bushings are shot you'll need to tear the whole pump down to do it right. Since it was sitting for 6 years the front seal could just be kaput and the bushings fine. How many degrees can you rotate the timing belt easily?
You need to change the timing belt at any rate. Since it is 1) old and 2) soaked in diesel and ATF, it's going to fail, and probably soon.
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Found an injection pump. Model #068-190-107-A. Would this work for me?
And I will check the timing. Didn't hold the prime over night. Also didn't let the ATF sit, I still have some left, I think i am going to try to let it sit.
More and more I feel like I want to find a turbo motor.
How would I make a clear return?
i tried looking up the pump number you posted, and its not the correct number. nothing comes up with any reference to a bosch VE rotary pump..
it should be a number like this:
0 460 404 120
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107 is an early 1.6 na pump
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I ended up getting a whole 1.5 for a case of beer, so no worries on the other pump.
My idea is, put the 1.5 pump on my motor, check valve lash, get it on the road. Then, since the 1.6 pump is off, replace the seal, inspect the bushing, and if the 1.5 does leak, swap out and do the same for the 1.5 pump, and have a spare.
Looking again at the 1.5 pump, it may just be a mess from being pulled out, since in banjo wasn't sealed. Timing tools are on there way, hope to have it running this weekend.
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Pulled the pumps. 1.6 pump has shaft play, so is it new bushing time? Ran out of light, so didn't get the the 1.5 pump on the motor yet.
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I would have to agree and next time not so tight on the timing belt.
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Ok, after having a nightmare getting everything lined up(missed the step on loosening the cam sprocket somehow), got it all together and primed.Added a priming bulb to help with that. Timed it at 1.0 mm. Fired up with a lot of white smoke, and needed full throttle to run. Calmed down after a bit, and idled. Seemed to rev up ok, so took it for a short test drive, after letting it idle to temp(wanted to see if it would lose prime). Didn't make it to the end of my court, didn't want to rev, and started idling real low. Gave the priming bulb a few squeezes, and idle when up, and would rev (in neutral) again. I had it soaking in Diesel 911 for a few days, hoping to get all the old diesel junk out of there. This is with the 1.5 pump on the 1.6. Also, with the bleeder screw open on the filter housing, once the air was out, the bulb got real stiff, time for a new filter?
So, I have a feeling I am gonna need to add a little fuel pump to help the injection pump out, or is there something else I check before I spend money?
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Every time I bring a pump/car back from the dead I put my battery on the charger and use my diesel carrier electric pump, with a temporary cheap clear hose(with cheap temp filter) for the in and out lines into a bucket. This can let your run a pump without having to worry about the air intrusion, dirty filter, etc. Also the pump will let you run it in case the vanes are gummed up and it cannot pump on its own and it will save your starter and battery :)
Starter is another big one. You want to spin the car over fast, you could have an old one that might do the job on a healthy motor. For whatever reason every shell I have got has been weak in the starter department. Like cranking for 10 seconds and then having it slow down.
Somebody on this forum sold me a tdi starter from a 2000 model auto trans and I really like it. My car starts up practically instantly hot or cold, I can't count the revolutions.
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Alright, changed the filter and gave the primer bulb a few squeezes while holding full throttle. Start reving nice and strong. Drove around the block, good power.
Only problem is revs hang real bad after giving it the goose. And with 56hp, you use a lot of throttle, a lot of the time. Seems like over fueling to me, but the collar is still on the smoke screw, and the yellow paint marks from a rebuilder are still intact. In neutral, when you give the throttle a stab, small puff of black smoke. When idling, and when the revs hang, no smoke.
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Rev hang means that the fuel screw is in to far. Black smoke means too much fuel as well. Back it off a half a turn, adjust idle if necessary and see how it works. No more hang, good if still hangs try another quarter turn out. You are just wasting expensive fuel.
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The fuel screw didn't want to turn, but didn't have a 6mm wrench. Rachet wouldn't fit, and flat head couldn't put too much torque on. The collar shouldnt stop it from coming out, correct?
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Hit it with some penetrating oil for a bit and get the vice grips on it. You need a good snap to get it loose and a 6 mm is probably not going to get the job done. Will slip right off. Use it after the screw is loose.
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Dont damage the end threads, or wreck the hex while your wrenching on it!
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Cracked it open, went back an 1/8 of a turn no more rev hang. Once I drive it, I will watch the smoke screen and see it it needs a bit more. One of the delivery valves is leaking, and it "dieseled" a bit as well. Getting real close to on the road.