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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: R.O.R-2.0 on May 27, 2012, 09:58:48 am
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so, i came across a VNT20 setup for a VERY good deal recently, and i wanna run it.
pretty sure its gonna be a quite awesome setup on the 1.6L engine..
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/joshmarstall/IMG01120-20110912-1938.jpg).
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/joshmarstall/IMG01124-20110912-1941.jpg).
but, i have some questions, and i know very little about these bigger VNTs, and how they perform on smaller engines?
theoretically, since this is a VNT, it should still spool rather quickly, right? i just dont want a dog of a turbo..
im NOT going to run this turbo without the vanes hooked up either.. the vanes move extremely smooth, and i want to keep them that way..
so, does anyone have any input as to how this turbo might perform? what kinda boost numbers it pushes out?
and, how laggy is this going to be, being that it came off a 2.5, and is going back on a 1.6?
BTW, its a street toys hybrid turbo..
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http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=300010
That ^ shows some different turbos and there "sizes". It doesn't nessesarily say that what will run good or how yours will, but there are some turbos that have been used on that link that you could get a feel for it. I have yet to find a compressor map for mine, but it is listed = 2256v off of a 2.7L Sprinter. I don't have the engine done, so I am looking forward to how yours ends up :D
If yours is a 2056 or a different 2256 then the exducer will be the same size. Housings and what not maybe different, but if you could find someone running one on a TDI you could see what they say. Since our engines are less efficient by nature of design and the more revs we have, then it shouldn't be too much of a change even with the .3L of displacement loss.
Here is another site that I have looked at to try and get my head around this a bit. Not quite the same as our stuff, but good reading to try and figure out stuff. http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tuning-and-upgrades/167073-things-that-need-changing-when-turbo-i-uprated-4.html
Obviously, Libby diesel is the one to read for the design for a good VNT control system. He has a thread on that other forum. He has linked to it a bunch of times. http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11042
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oh, i imagine im going to be picking Libbys brain a few times thru out my build up.. (hope you dont mind Andrew!!)
hes definitely the most knowledgeable guy on the forum, about VNTs, and how to set them up..
and i want to make my vanes function as close to the way they were intended to function..
if this turbo, with proper vane control, reacts in the lower RPMs about like my VNT15 did without vane control, then i would be VERY happy!
i really want this turbo to work good, and i dont see any reason why it wont.. our 1.6 engines are LESS efficient, but they do spin more RPMs, and ive heard that they flow similar numbers on the top end..
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Looks like a fun project. I think it will be large for a 1.6 but with vanes closed it will likely spool faster than a K24 or T3 and be able to flow rod-bending boost efficiently with vanes open. As far as spooling as well as your last turbo, I can't really say. I can't really account for how your last turbo performed. I've used a couple VNT15s on 1.6TDs and with vanes fully open and close-to-stock fueling and they have a hard time making 7-8 psi of boost.
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Looks like a fun project. I think it will be large for a 1.6 but with vanes closed it will likely spool faster than a K24 or T3 and be able to flow rod-bending boost efficiently with vanes open. As far as spooling as well as your last turbo, I can't really say. I can't really account for how your last turbo performed. I've used a couple VNT15s on 1.6TDs and with vanes fully open and close-to-stock fueling and they have a hard time making 7-8 psi of boost.
you said it yourself tho, that i am DANGEROUSLY over fueled.. and im going to buy an EGT gauge today, to see exactly how right you are..
my pump always made 20psi (with ease) or more with a VNT15, vanes fully open.
i hope it doesnt matter that this is a StreetToys 2000 hybrid turbo. i hope that doesnt make it a laggy dog.
rod bending boost you say? so, basically is what your saying, is that head studs are basically a requirement for this turbo?
should i do anything to the bottom end of the engine? its 100% stock right now..
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what I am meaning on our engines being less efficient is that more waste is going out the exhaust, so it should spool similar to a 1.9. Which is a good thing... I am guessing, but I shouldn't be too far off on it.
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Actually the difference in efficiency is not from heat out the exhaust, but rather increased heat lost to the cooling system due to the increased surface area of the pre-combustion chambers. The waste heat out the exhaust is similar for TDI and IDI.
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Looks like a fun project. I think it will be large for a 1.6 but with vanes closed it will likely spool faster than a K24 or T3 and be able to flow rod-bending boost efficiently with vanes open. As far as spooling as well as your last turbo, I can't really say. I can't really account for how your last turbo performed. I've used a couple VNT15s on 1.6TDs and with vanes fully open and close-to-stock fueling and they have a hard time making 7-8 psi of boost.
you said it yourself tho, that i am DANGEROUSLY over fueled.. and im going to buy an EGT gauge today, to see exactly how right you are..
my pump always made 20psi (with ease) or more with a VNT15, vanes fully open.
i hope it doesnt matter that this is a StreetToys 2000 hybrid turbo. i hope that doesnt make it a laggy dog.
rod bending boost you say? so, basically is what your saying, is that head studs are basically a requirement for this turbo?
should i do anything to the bottom end of the engine? its 100% stock right now..
I should have said that the only way I can account for your ability to produce high boost from a VNT15 with vanes fully open would be from excessive fuel. I think the Street toys turbo with vanes fully closed will spool as fast or faster than a VNT15 with vanes fully open. I think the head gasket will be a weaker link than the bottom end.
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IMHO the precups in the head won't like it. I would have a spare ready just in case. My machinist has decided that the precups were designed for 52-77 hp. Mine grew like crazy and were not liking the added fuel that Giles has given to me. The Aluminum is the weakest link. If you are running that reused fiber gasket then it is probably going to go first, but an MLS steel like I was running should be fine. I had mine studed so that wasn't an issue either.
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Actually the difference in efficiency is not from heat out the exhaust, but rather increased heat lost to the cooling system due to the increased surface area of the pre-combustion chambers. The waste heat out the exhaust is similar for TDI and IDI.
I am guessing but I was thinking that similar 1.9 engines either IDI or TDI the IDI will always have higher EGT for similar setups. Maybe not an efficientcy thing, but just from what I have heard that is the way it is. Makes sense to me that way as the TDI is a cleaner burning system and the more it continues to burn past the exhuast valve should help it spool....like I said, just hypothesis.
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Looks like a fun project. I think it will be large for a 1.6 but with vanes closed it will likely spool faster than a K24 or T3 and be able to flow rod-bending boost efficiently with vanes open. As far as spooling as well as your last turbo, I can't really say. I can't really account for how your last turbo performed. I've used a couple VNT15s on 1.6TDs and with vanes fully open and close-to-stock fueling and they have a hard time making 7-8 psi of boost.
you said it yourself tho, that i am DANGEROUSLY over fueled.. and im going to buy an EGT gauge today, to see exactly how right you are..
my pump always made 20psi (with ease) or more with a VNT15, vanes fully open.
i hope it doesnt matter that this is a StreetToys 2000 hybrid turbo. i hope that doesnt make it a laggy dog.
rod bending boost you say? so, basically is what your saying, is that head studs are basically a requirement for this turbo?
should i do anything to the bottom end of the engine? its 100% stock right now..
I should have said that the only way I can account for your ability to produce high boost from a VNT15 with vanes fully open would be from excessive fuel. I think the Street toys turbo with vanes fully closed will spool as fast or faster than a VNT15 with vanes fully open. I think the head gasket will be a weaker link than the bottom end.
ok, well... i have one more question about this setup..
AM I ASKING FOR PROBLEMS??
is this turbo going to harm my engine?
(im actually going to be monitoring this engine, i got a 1600*f autometer pyrometer today)
i need to get head studs tho..
and lucas, i would think that my precups would actually like this turbo MORE. its going to be more efficient, and flow MORE air, so it should run cooler EGTs than my VNT15, or K24 ever ran..
BTW, dunno if the markings are accurate, but they say the cold side is a .45, and that the hot side is a .64, but being a hybrid turbo, and knowing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the actual specs, its kinda a guessing game, right?
i am planning for a set of head studs, and a metal head gasket if the fiber proves to be too problematic, im gonna try and run a fiber gasket w/ studs at first, and see how it likes it. VNT turbos should be/are actually easier on the head gasket, than conventional turbos. the VNTs have much lower drive pressures than the conventional turbos. the exhaust side of VNT turbos flows AMAZING at high RPMs..
please, someone tell me if im just stupid for wanting to run this turbo, or if it will be completely acceptable with the right fueling and mods? i dont want to set myself up for failure. i dont want to have a sob story to post, for you guys to laugh at..
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If it is a 2256v it could be the same VNT that I have. I am going to run it on mine, but I am having some serious stuff done to help the head out. I am convinced that the forged crank VW gave these cars is almost grenade proof. The rods are quite tough as well, my #3 bent, but it had the entire precup in the hole and the head faired much worse. I bet #3 rod I have would still run with a miss in an otherwise healthy engine as it isn't bent all that bad. The blocks could be a bit beefier.
All in all I think the alum head is by far the weakest link. I think no matter what turbo the precups will heat and expand more than the aluminum if you throw fuel at them. If I were you I would have a spare head and you should be good to go. I have those AAZ engines and an AAZ head that will get that 2256v when the 1.6 has it figured out.
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If it is a 2256v it could be the same VNT that I have. I am going to run it on mine, but I am having some serious stuff done to help the head out. I am convinced that the forged crank VW gave these cars is almost grenade proof. The rods are quite tough as well, my #3 bent, but it had the entire precup in the hole and the head faired much worse. I bet #3 rod I have would still run with a miss in an otherwise healthy engine as it isn't bent all that bad. The blocks could be a bit beefier.
All in all I think the alum head is by far the weakest link. I think no matter what turbo the precups will heat and expand more than the aluminum if you throw fuel at them. If I were you I would have a spare head and you should be good to go. I have those AAZ engines and an AAZ head that will get that 2256v when the 1.6 has it figured out.
its not a 2260v, or a 2056v..
its a 2056v.. previous owner said it spooled a little SLOWER than his current 2260v, but FLEW on the top end. said it had more top end power than the 2260 did.
this turbo came from a 2.5L TDI I5..
and i have an AAZ head that ive got for a spare.. just needs new lifters. had a broken lifter and slightly messed up lifter bore. supposed to be a 20 thousand mile OEM VW head.. came from GEE-BEE..
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so now we can experiment. Let me know your failures and I will let you know mine...maybe a success too.
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I think it will work ok. I think it's a bigger VNT than I would want to run on a 1.6TD and so it will likely be a bit laggy with the potential to make more boost than I'd want to run. It will still probably spool faster than a T3 or K24 and flow better overall. It's all a guess, tho, so slap it on and report back. ;) Is that a boost can actuator on there? If so, then I'd stick it on and run it and see how it performs like that.
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I think it will work ok. I think it's a bigger VNT than I would want to run on a 1.6TD and so it will likely be a bit laggy with the potential to make more boost than I'd want to run. It will still probably spool faster than a T3 or K24 and flow better overall. It's all a guess, tho, so slap it on and report back. ;) Is that a boost can actuator on there? If so, then I'd stick it on and run it and see how it performs like that.
no, its a vacuum actuator.. :(
i have a wastegate can (opens at about 7-8psi) that im going to modify to take place of the vacuum actuator, and im going to run that for a while, and if it proves to be less than an ideal way to control the vanes, then i will change it out for a proper setup that is controlled by boost, and throttle position..
really, im not looking for more than about 25-30 psi boost.. may have to turn my pump down to limit the amount of max boost this thing makes..
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so now we can experiment. Let me know your failures and I will let you know mine...maybe a success too.
im planning for no failures, only success..
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Kevin, don't even try to run that turbo with a fiber gasket!
You have to pull the head to install the new studs, so why not just slap on the MLS gasket and be done with that issue?
I'll get the specs for it and let you know.
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my opinion is that it should work really well. i would expect similar results as what people get with a tdi, except slightly less due to less displacement. the vnts with the 56 and 60 mm at the end of the number are a little better, but this one is still good. i think i might be able to get a compressor map too, do you know the inducer size on the compressor? or you can measure it, and we'll see how it looks. i think you can expect good results but even with looking at the compressor map you won't know till you try it. if it were me, i would just make the vnt only sensitive to boost... but thats just me.
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Ok i checked on Garrett's site it looks like there about 4-5 different 52mm compressor wheels once you measure the inducer well know which one the best for u I believe is the 52trim don't know the inducer size in mm tho
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my opinion is that it should work really well. i would expect similar results as what people get with a tdi, except slightly less due to less displacement. the vnts with the 56 and 60 mm at the end of the number are a little better, but this one is still good. i think i might be able to get a compressor map too, do you know the inducer size on the compressor? or you can measure it, and we'll see how it looks. i think you can expect good results but even with looking at the compressor map you won't know till you try it. if it were me, i would just make the vnt only sensitive to boost... but thats just me.
i modified a wastegate can last night. its now a vane actuator.
vanes are fully open by 10-12psi...
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Kevin, don't even try to run that turbo with a fiber gasket!
You have to pull the head to install the new studs, so why not just slap on the MLS gasket and be done with that issue?
I'll get the specs for it and let you know.
even tho this SHOULD be a very good flowing turbo, its still going to stress my head gasket that much?
never had problems with a fiber gasket so far, even up north of 35psi, with an ass load of drive pressure..
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Kevin, don't even try to run that turbo with a fiber gasket!
You have to pull the head to install the new studs, so why not just slap on the MLS gasket and be done with that issue?
I'll get the specs for it and let you know.
even tho this SHOULD be a very good flowing turbo, its still going to stress my head gasket that much?
never had problems with a fiber gasket so far, even up north of 35psi, with an ass load of drive pressure..
Yep. This will flow more than the turbos you have had in the past. You will have more air to compress too.
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Kevin, don't even try to run that turbo with a fiber gasket!
You have to pull the head to install the new studs, so why not just slap on the MLS gasket and be done with that issue?
I'll get the specs for it and let you know.
even tho this SHOULD be a very good flowing turbo, its still going to stress my head gasket that much?
never had problems with a fiber gasket so far, even up north of 35psi, with an ass load of drive pressure..
Yep. This will flow more than the turbos you have had in the past. You will have more air to compress too.
so, this turbo has the potential to harm my engine.. GREAT!
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I think the better flow probably makes it safer, measure ur inducer lets see what u got
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I think the better flow probably makes it safer, measure ur inducer lets see what u got
thats what i thought too Trevor.. better flowing means less restrictions (in my mind atleast)
ill go measure the compressor wheel right now, and report back..
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I think what really hurts them is extreme back pressure because then it can't evacuate the exhaust completely so ur left with that amount of pressure in the cylinder when the intake valve opens and then it all just starts stacking the pressure, and the compressor has to fight that pressure and hg problems are inevitable. For big psi numbers it takes a bigger turbo
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intake side:
40mm (39.6mm to be exact) inducer
56mm exducer
and i too, believe that its extreme drive pressure that kills these engines, not extreme boost.
im really not looking for big psi.. 20-25 psi with a LOAD of efficient flow would be more than acceptable..
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That's a 2056 or 2256 then the last 2 numbers are the exducer size... But this is a good thing it's a 50 trim 56 mm wheel. So I think the gt2056 should be the same map
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pretty sure its a GTB2056VL..
pulled this off TDIclub, and it describes my turbo to a TEE..
volvo gtb2056vl
Compressor (6 main blades) inducer/exducer: 39.6mm / 56mm
Turbine (9 blades) exducer/inducer: 42mm / 47mm
Compressor A/R: 0.45
Turbine A/R: 0.64
so, the 56mm turbos are better?
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pretty sure its a GTB2056VL..
pulled this off TDIclub, and it describes my turbo to a TEE..
volvo gtb2056vl
Compressor (6 main blades) inducer/exducer: 39.6mm / 56mm
Turbine (9 blades) exducer/inducer: 42mm / 47mm
Compressor A/R: 0.45
Turbine A/R: 0.64
so, the 56mm turbos are better?
yeah because they have larger exducer, generally, a larger exducer means the turbo will be more efficient at higher boost pressure because the air is moving much faster when it leaves the tip of the compressor wheel because of the wheel being bigger. the inducer generally is what limits how much air the turbo can actually flow, and at what flow/pressure it will surge at. and the balance between those 2 sizes gets u a turbo that is efficient where you want it to be.
i don't see a map for your turbo on garretts site, there is only one for the 55 trim 56mm wheel, but judging by the inducer size, that things good for 200-250hp worth of flow, and judging by the exducer size and the 55 trim map you're good for over 30psi of boost, and it takes that much boost to get that much flow, so its looking very good for you.
i would just recommend an emp gauge so u can get a better idea of whats going on with the turbo and if its working correctly or efficiently. and check what hp the tdi guys have done with this turbo u should be able to do similar numbers at maybe a slightly higher boost pressure. it looks very promising tho.
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also check this out, kind of cool from garretts site
so its a boreless(what ever that means)
multivane variable geometry
and water cooled?
(http://garrettbyhoneywell.com/assets/turboIdentification/GT-Series-chart/images/Garrett-Turbo-GT-Series-Model-Designations-.gif)
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damn, not a VL.. thats for sure. no water cooling.
its a 2nd (3rd?) generation VNT, meaning its a GTB. i believe GT was 1st gen, GTA was 2nd gen, and GTB was 3rd gen, could be wrong tho.
its not boreless.. boreless compressor wheels screw directly to the turbine shaft. there is no nut holding the wheel on the shaft.
there are threads inside the bore of the compressor wheel. but the bore does not go completely thru the wheel now..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GT42-GTA42-Billet-Compressor-Wheel-Boreless-/221034310534 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/GT42-GTA42-Billet-Compressor-Wheel-Boreless-/221034310534)
theres a GT42 boreless wheel.
boreless just means there is no nut holding the compressor wheel to the shaft..
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also, how many degrees can the center section be away from vertical?
right now, the turbo oil feed and return are straight up and down.
so, given that the engine is tilted 15* towards the firewall, that puts my center section at 15* also..
whats the max angle that you can have your center section, and still have it drain properly?
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damn, not a VL.. thats for sure. no water cooling.
its a 2nd (3rd?) generation VNT, meaning its a GTB. i believe GT was 1st gen, GTA was 2nd gen, and GTB was 3rd gen, could be wrong tho.
its not boreless.. boreless compressor wheels screw directly to the turbine shaft. there is no nut holding the wheel on the shaft.
there are threads inside the bore of the compressor wheel. but the bore does not go completely thru the wheel now..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GT42-GTA42-Billet-Compressor-Wheel-Boreless-/221034310534 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/GT42-GTA42-Billet-Compressor-Wheel-Boreless-/221034310534)
theres a GT42 boreless wheel.
boreless just means there is no nut holding the compressor wheel to the shaft..
thats cool, i wonder what the purpose of that is., i have heard 15 degrees is the max but i don't really know
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Garrett says 15° max.
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Garrett says 15° max.
so, im basically stuck keeping the turbo parallel to the engine then?
because it looks about impossible to re-clock this turbo..
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You could probably have a taper machined off the mating surfaces of the turbo and manifold.
Clocking the VNT center cartridge is possible, but a challenge. It requires precisely drilling/tapping new holes for mounting the vane carrier to the turbine housing.
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You could probably have a taper machined off the mating surfaces of the turbo and manifold.
Clocking the VNT center cartridge is possible, but a challenge. It requires precisely drilling/tapping new holes for mounting the vane carrier to the turbine housing.
thought about cutting the flange off the header, and welding it back on at an angle.. then i decided to just raise the whole flange up. that should give me enough room for everything. i got the turbo setup and Rolince Enterprises engine mount mocked up on an old engine, but the engine mount was touching the turbo intake, so thats why i wanted to either mount the turbo out of parallel with the engine, or else raise the whole thing up a bit. i decided that raising it up is the easiest option.
and yea, i remember the thread about re-clocking a VNT, and the work involved.. im not interested, nor equipped to do said work. i will just work with the clocking that it currently has.
kinda a cool bit of info, the oil inlet fitting, and the return line flange are identical between the VNT15, and VNT20.. i thought i was going to have to build a new return line flange, and locate a new oil inlet fitting for sure, but i dug my old VNT15 center section out, and sure enough, it had some useful parts. glad i didnt throw out those then "useless" VNT parts, because now they are very useful again!
gonna have the header finished up tonight, so i might actually be able to fire the beast up before i go to bed. i miss the scream of the old VNT15 turbo that i used to have installed. VNTs have a very distinctive sound, over a conventional turbo. you can actually hear the vanes opening and closing, thru the changing exhaust/turbine sound..
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well, i got a couple words for you guys...
HOLY CRAP...
this turbo is AMAZING.. maybe even a bit of a monster.
it makes 20psi easy at half pedal..
and the response is amazing. it isnt very laggy at all. spools sooner than my open VNT15, or K24 did.
i cant wait to see what this thing is capable of!
anyways, thanks for reading, and stay tuned.. this is just the beginning of a very wild build..
(i believe this may be the easy solution for those of us wanting compound turbos, because this one spools low, and comes on HARD)
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I figured. And this is what I wanted to hear BTW :D
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maybe this will set a new trend, and more people will start playing with bigger VNTs?!
the funniest thing about all this, is that a VNT is considered to be emissions control equipment!! LMFAO!!
i added emissions control equipment to my diesel, and it added HP.. 8)
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You weren't my guinea pig or trendsetter. I started using the VNTs on IDIs in 2005, about three years before you joined this forum in 2008 as "Rabbit On Roids" and I had built several mechanical controls in that time. I'd give more credit to Tintin and Jake Russel (FspGTD).
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notice i said KINDA, and didnt try and take ALL the credit for it.. i know there were others before me. when i did my VNT swap, there wasnt a LOAD of info out there about the conversion, like there is now.. when i did mine, i believe you were still coming up with a way to better mechanically control the vanes on your VNT.. now VNT powered mk1/2/3s are as common as a street hooker with chlamydia..
i still dont know of anyone else running a VNT this big on a 1.6 tho... sure theres PLENTY of them over on the direct injection side, but ive been searching, and turned up nothing even close to what im building..
i know you have been at this MUCH longer than me. i never said you werent. you are one smart mofo, i can never take that away from you. your VNT control system.. genius..
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No worries man. I wasn't hurt.
I think it's good that you are enjoying the performance. I still think the turbo is larger than I would want on a 1.6. I wouldn't want to run more than an efficient 25 psi on a 1.6TD because the engines I run are in drivers and more boost than that makes for short-lived rod bearings even if it doesn't blow head gaskets or bend rods. That boost level can be sustained with a VNT 17 or 18. The only things you gain from running a larger turbo is the ability for a higher max boost and lag. If a smaller turbo will efficiently produce the max boost you want to run, then going bigger just adds lag.
As another example, I only want to run about 15-18 psi on my 300TD and so the 2559 I have on there is actually a little too big, IMO. I could have probably used a 2256 from a Sprinter and had faster response.
Anyway, glad you are enjoying it. From the sounds of it, it is performing the way I thought. Vanes closed, it responds faster than the K24 or VNT15 with vanes open, and I'm sure it has the capacity to efficiently run higher boost than I'd want to run.
That's also the reason I'm not particularly interested in compounds. I can already efficiently have more boost than I'd want to run without any lag. I'm sure the performance of compounds can be awesome, but doing the installation is certainly more work and complication than one of my mechanical vane controls.
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oh, trust me, im almost scared of this turbo right now.. im kinda thinking that it is going to be a bit of a monster on this engine. i wanted something reliable. this may be a little too hot to be reliable.. i was making 20+psi at 1/2 - 2/3 pedal last night. not even getting on it at all.
if its going to make that much boost, that easy, then im wondering what its going to do once i really throw some heat at it..
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Blow Up. :( lol
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Dude, I don't believe a word your saying till we see pics and video of it installed.
JK.
Glad to hear that you got that all up and running. So how are you controlling the vanes? Did you end up using the exhaust manifold i gave you?
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yeah pics and all that jazz. i've been thinking for a long time it'd be more interesting performance wise if more people would try larger turbos... but everybody is too scared of lag.
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yeah pics and all that jazz. i've been thinking for a long time it'd be more interesting performance wise if more people would try larger turbos... but everybody is too scared of lag.
pfft, there aint none! this is a VNT my homies!!
this turbo is awesome, and i havent even driven it 5 miles, or gotten hard on the throttle yet..
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Dude, I don't believe a word your saying till we see pics and video of it installed.
JK.
Glad to hear that you got that all up and running. So how are you controlling the vanes? Did you end up using the exhaust manifold i gave you?
well, i almost couldnt use the manifold.. i had to shorten the collector, to bring the turbo intake up off the engine mount. then i had to trim the engine mount to keep it from hitting the cold side of the turbo.. then i had to trim the bracket on the subframe for the engine mount, because the wastegate can (vane actuator) was actually hitting too..
also had to flip the manifold back the way it was, collector pointing down, turbo low mounted. the way the manifold was when i got it from you, would have high mounted the turbo, and mounted it upside down..
as for vane control, the vanes dont start opening until 5-6 psi, and are completely open by 10-12 psi. im not sure if thats going to be the for sure way im controlling my vanes, but i gotta have something hooked up for now..
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and another thing.. am i stupid for wanting to run this on a stock engine?
i see people with head girdles, h beams, metal gaskets, all sorts of fun parts.. im still stock.. is this an issue i should worry about?
basically, if you guys suggest a rebuild of the engine, then im gonna use my 1.6TD that i have, and not the vanagon engine im running now.. im going to be going with head studs and a metal head gasket tho.. i figure thats the LEAST i could do. i think i want to blow the fiber gasket tho, just to see what they are good for, because im honestly partial to fiber gaskets, because they have more GIVE to them, they are almost elastic in a way.. im thinking that this turbo SHOULD be fine on head gaskets tho. because drive pressure blows head gaskets, not boost pressure. being that this is a VNT, and it has a very free flowing exhaust housing, then drive pressure really shouldnt be much of an issue. i will still be monitoring drive pressure in the initial tuning stage tho.. im really not ASKING to have problems..
i know its not a good idea to run without piston cooler jets, but it shouldnt be AS BAD, being that i have a VNT..
im expecting to have lots of cool efficient boost on tap at all times.. last time i drove it was without an intercooler, and it really didnt FEEL like it even needed one. felt like it was still maintaining efficiency.. intake manifold was NOT frying hot either, witch was good. all my other turbos made the intake cookin hot after 20psi..
and being that this is a ram-horn style manifold, it comes up fairly high behind the stock intake manifold. im wondering how much heat soak i am getting from the manifolds being in such close proximity? the stock manifolds usually come straight off the head, and point towards the firewall. well, this one i got, comes out and the runners goes UP towards the hood, then head back down towards the ground, and finally, connect up to the collector of the manifold. the exhaust manifold kinda HUGS the intake manifold, basically the whole manifold. should i worry about getting the exhaust manifold coated, wrapping it, or building some type of aluminum heat shield?
coming up with a downpipe is going to be very easy tho. all im going to have to do is build/buy a turbo flange, and then one single 90* elbow will be sufficient to get the exhaust out of the engine bay. having a low mounted turbo really makes downpipe fab a cake walk..
with a high mounted turbo, you have ALOT more bends in the downpipe, just to clear everything. with a VNT, they are down soo low that you dont have to clear near as much hardware..
think it would be worth it to build a short downpipe with a v-band connection on the end, so i can disconnect it easily from the exhaust system? i was just thinking about coming out of the turbo, going about 4", and welding on a V-band connection. so basically just a short elbow that bolts onto the outlet side of the turbo, with a V-band connection.. all of it will be 2.5" also.. i dont see the need for 3" pipe, besides, its pretty hard to get 3" under a mk2 car.
i really want your opinions guys.. they DO mean alot to me. i kinda almost feel like im out here alone in no-mans land. theres NO INFO about installing a turbo like this in a mk2, or on a TD.. just nothing out there about this swap..
i should be taking more pictures of this swap!!
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Yes, you should at least wrap the exhaust manifold and maybe even have the intake manifold coated to aid in isolating the two.
So your using a boost pressure can to control the vanes? Or some linkage from the pump like Andrew?
Seriously, get that fiber gasket out of there! All that luck your having will soon wear thin and the damage to the head, piston, rods or even the blocks deck is not a fun path to fix. Unless you like fixing your ride.
I would also recommend using a rebuilt engine but thats just me. Ya hear of other just slapping on a turbo and next post is that its blown a HG and or the engine itself. If you want any longevity or reliance from your build its best to start with good bones.
Yes, using a TD block will aid you in keeping the pistons cool and having a 12mm block.
Stock rods are fine, but recommend ARP rod bolts and main cap bolts. A balanced rotating assembly, from V-belt pulley to clutch.
Did you ever get a TD injection pump yet. I got one thats been rebuilt by DFIS here in Portland. PM me if interested.
You think thats a big turbo. I've got my 2260 I'm putting on my engine!
Can't wait for pics and video of your setup.
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A 2056 is indeed a serious turbo, I think maybe u should start preparing ur td engine and then see how long ur current engine lasts haha. When I have my car back together which will probably be eons, I'll have a ported head, polished rods, and arp rod bolts, those three things I think will make a huge difference in longevity and power over all. Arp hardware on the mains and head studs with a metal gasket. But like all of us here no these engines aren't like Hondas there aren't 5 million people seeing what works and what don't so it's all an experiment
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Yes, you should at least wrap the exhaust manifold and maybe even have the intake manifold coated to aid in isolating the two.
So your using a boost pressure can to control the vanes? Or some linkage from the pump like Andrew?
Seriously, get that fiber gasket out of there! All that luck your having will soon wear thin and the damage to the head, piston, rods or even the blocks deck is not a fun path to fix. Unless you like fixing your ride.
I would also recommend using a rebuilt engine but thats just me. Ya hear of other just slapping on a turbo and next post is that its blown a HG and or the engine itself. If you want any longevity or reliance from your build its best to start with good bones.
Yes, using a TD block will aid you in keeping the pistons cool and having a 12mm block.
Stock rods are fine, but recommend ARP rod bolts and main cap bolts. A balanced rotating assembly, from V-belt pulley to clutch.
Did you ever get a TD injection pump yet. I got one thats been rebuilt by DFIS here in Portland. PM me if interested.
You think thats a big turbo. I've got my 2260 I'm putting on my engine!
Can't wait for pics and video of your setup.
im controlling the vanes solely based on boost. no linkage from the pump.
i figured i should get the header wrapped, will a heat shield not be enough? getting the intake coated as well?
ive got a 12mm engine. theres no way i would be running a turbo like this on an 11mm engine..
yes, ive got a real TD pump. ive just got a stock pump on there for now (rebuilt like 20k ago) but i have a Peugeot 10mm injection pump that ive been waiting to install.. now that i have a pyrometer, and enough air flow to warrant the extra fuel, i just might install that 10mm pump instead of the stock 9mm VW pump..
and josh, how come you never ran this turbo? it would have fit right on your caddy no problem. you wouldnt have had to modify it at all, not like i had to atleast..
anyways, im going to go build a downpipe.. i drew up a flange on CAD, and cut it out with our torch-mate computer controlled plazma cutter in class today.. my instructor has been letting me work on the project during class time, and is giving me class credit for it also. this setup is going to be the nicest, cleanest turbo setup ive ever had. its gonna be nice to have something decent looking under the head.
im going to modify my stock intake manifold next week. gonna cut the top half of it off, and turn it into a passenger performance style dual plenum intake manifold..
metal gasket and head studs are on the top of my TO-DO list..
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Sweet. You get to play with a torch mate! Thems is cool.
That 10mm head and plunger will give you lots of fuel and reserve.
Just wrapping the exhaust will help to keep the heat transfering to the turbo and under hood temps. Sure a polished stainless steel shield will help too, between the two manifolds.
I never ran this setup just due to other projects and the Mercedes setup wasn't that bad.
Sounds like you are gonna have a great time with you car.
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Well, i need to come up with a better way to control the vanes. maybe linkages like andrew drew up..
it spools great on the bottom end, then the vanes open up at about 10psi, and thats WAY too soon. the vanes need to open at like 20psi..
it was making 20psi at half pedal because the vanes were not opening, for whatever reason.. the vanes are operating now (i can hear them)
and im stuck making 10psi.. FOR NOW. maybe its a blessing in disguise?
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Hey kevo, I was getting way more power with my ko3 at stock waste gate seeings(10psi) then I was with my waste gate disconnected.. The mtdi could probably fuel 20psi with quarter throttle on the ko3. So yes it may be a blessing! A totally non restricted 15_20 psi could be awesome sauce.
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Hey kevo, I was getting way more power with my ko3 at stock waste gate seeings(10psi) then I was with my waste gate disconnected.. The mtdi could probably fuel 20psi with quarter throttle on the ko3. So yes it may be a blessing! A totally non restricted 15_20 psi could be awesome sauce.
im looking for 20-25psi completely unrestricted.. i would be SUPER happy with that..
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i think im going to mess around with adding a spring to the control assembly today, that adds very little resistance to the vanes at part throttle, and adds considerable resistance when you crack the throttle open, effectively making the opening pressure of the wastegate variable with throttle position..
so, at part throttle, there will be hardly any added spring tension, and the vanes will operate as they are now, maxing out at 10psi.
but at heavy throttle conditions, the cable coming from the IP throttle will pull the spring tighter, making the vanes close more, and making the boost pressure rise.
im going to be messing around with hooking a spring to the actual vane lever on the turbo, and having the other end of the spring mounted to a bracket that changes position based on throttle position..
its going to basically accomplish the same thing as Andrews setup, but with a single cable and spring, rather than linkages. and my setup will not be able to hold the throttle open when boost comes up..
(THIS IS ALL IN THEORY, i need to mock it up, and see how/if it works)
if my idea doesnt work, then im probably going to build something similar to the control system Andrew built. its proven, known to work good..
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Maybe even a boost can that's designed to work for a higher psi will work I don't think they are very expensive.
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Its definately not a gtb turbo.
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Its definately not a gtb turbo.
i thought GTB just denoted 2nd generation VNT?
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third génération
1 vnt20
2 gt20**
3gtb gta...
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third génération
1 vnt20
2 gt20**
3gtb gta...
so, its a 2nd gen, GT2056V then?
sorry i havent came up with the right model name yet. but nobody will give me a straight answer as to what this turbo is/was, or what it was used on, or how big it is..
i really wish i knew more about this turbo. when i bought it from josh, i was under the impression that it was a 2052. then it turned out to be a 2056..
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This is a little off topic, but i just unstuck my vanes on vnt15 and massaged my linkage a little more, and man its is just nuts to drive. My linkage is set up as per Andrews instructions, with a boost can spring rate that correctly matches my boost limits. When it spools if im not in 1st (which it will peg a 20 pound gauge) It goes to 15 almost instantly and stay there. The learning curve for today is, is that when plumbing the inline boost can be sure and use as big of lines that you can, initially i used a pretty small line to supply it and it would over boost very easily until it could flow the required volume. Also Zero runout in the linkage is crucial or the vanes will soot up and not allow it to return to idle and be very annoying. But i am sold on running an operating fully functioning control setup regardless of the effort it takes to achieve it.
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kermatdi may still have the specs on this turbo as they were the original vendor on them, even though street toys manufactured them. Call Paul, he may be able to answer your questions if you cant get thru to streettoys since he has closed shop. I'm fairly certain though that it started life as a basic 1st gen vnt20.
The turbo in this thread is what it started out as originally.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2722255-VNT20-Custom-Installation-by-JS-Performance!
But was modified with larger wheels.
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I don't understand all the vnt15 vnt17 names are those just the names tdi people gave them?
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This is a little off topic, but i just unstuck my vanes on vnt15 and massaged my linkage a little more, and man its is just nuts to drive. My linkage is set up as per Andrews instructions, with a boost can spring rate that correctly matches my boost limits. When it spools if im not in 1st (which it will peg a 20 pound gauge) It goes to 15 almost instantly and stay there. The learning curve for today is, is that when plumbing the inline boost can be sure and use as big of lines that you can, initially i used a pretty small line to supply it and it would over boost very easily until it could flow the required volume. Also Zero runout in the linkage is crucial or the vanes will soot up and not allow it to return to idle and be very annoying. But i am sold on running an operating fully functioning control setup regardless of the effort it takes to achieve it.
You are one of the very few people who has experienced what I would call a properly controlled VNT on a 1.6TD. The experience is really remarkable. Having the vanes close proportional to load gives such an excellent feeling of gradual power delivery and yet if you hammer the pedal it's all right there. :) Very fun and also kinda hard to describe. If the vanes get sticky take it on an extended highway grade and burn the carbon out.
More on topic with this thread, I think the boost can control is acceptable, but bear in mind that the vanes are always being pushed closed and result in too much boost for most situations and choking of the exhaust. If I am cruising along with minimal boost and then hammer the pedal, there is a moment before boost opens the vanes that I can feel a drop in power. At that moment of closing the vanes, the turbo is acting as an exhaust brake. When using just a boost can, the turbo is always either exhaust braking or boosting hard. That type of control is not as efficient and doesn't have as nice of a power delivery feel. I can understand choosing that method of control just for simplicity, but it isn't ideal.
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Thank you Andrew that means a lot! Yea I've power braked it for a little while and that seems to clear them some but steep grades work best. Hopefully this go around the linkage is tight enough to not start the sticking process.
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I've never played with one on a bench but I thought the boost cans opened gradually unless u use a boost controller. Which even still is not as good as one with throttle input but would be better than a waste gated turbo by far
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Boost cans always have a range of opening pressure unless controlled by a boost controller.
For any given fueling (load) there is a vane angle that I would call ideal. It is the vane angle that is most open that still produces enough boost to clear the smoke and keep EGTs below dangerous temps. For all partial load driving situations the ideal vane angle is somewhere in the middle and there is a wide range of vane angle more closed (which will produce excess boost and excess back pressure) and more open (which will waste fuel as excess smoke and will result in higher EGTs) that are less than ideal. If using just a boost can input, the vanes will always be more closed than the ideal angle for a given load except when fully floored and max boost is achieved. This results in excess back pressure, reduced engine efficiency and reduced power for that amount of fuel.
Here's how I'd grade the options based on how closely it resembles ideal. ;D
Stationary geometry and no boost control = D-/F
Stationary geometry and boost control by bypassing turbine (wastegated turbo) = D
Geometry controlled by boost only = C
Geometry controlled by load only = C
Geometry controlled by load and boost controlled by bypassing turbine (wastegate) = B
Geometry controlled by boost and load = A (96%)
Geometry controlled by boost, load and rpm = A+ (100%)
All that said, it is fully understandable why someone would choose to use just a boost can to control vane angle as it is simple to install and yet does a reasonable job and yes, it is IMO a distinct improvement over using stationary geometry and a wastegate.
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see my sig for a standalone VGT controller. you need a ~$35 micocontroller, but then you can map vane position to RPM & TPS... or do target boost
http://dmn.kuulalaakeri.org/vnt-lda/
8x8 map for VNT & LDA control
Use N75 solenoid based actuators
Live configuration via USB interface and graphical map editor (no special software needed)
Two VNT control modes:
* Duty Cycle map - Uses RPM/TPS info to set VNT actuator position. Additional dampening can be added to improve engine response. No map sensor needed for this setup.
* Target Pressure map - Specify requested pressure value on each control point. Vnt-lda will automatically move actuator until required pressure level is reached.
LDA table can be used to fine tune soot emissions and torque limiting on certain RPM-range.
Cheap and free :-)
* RPM Engine speed sensor, use Honeywell GT101DC or alternator W-output as a source.
* TPS Throttle position sensor (like Bosch "001")
* MAP Manifold absolute pressure sensor for detecting amount of boost, for example 4bar Freescale MPX6400
* Arduino AVR-microcontroller board, servos, n75 (or similiar) solenoid & vacuum actuators
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Anything more conclusive??? It's been a week or so right? U usually do everything fast
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Anything more conclusive??? It's been a week or so right? U usually do everything fast
no. i havent touched the car in that long.. i have a life. college finals are WAY more important.. and last week, i was homeless.. hard to work on a car that you dont have with you, when your homeless..
it still makes 7 psi boost. im still trying to figure out an EASY way to control the vanes.. i think im gonna go for a mix of wastegate control, and linkage/cable control as well..
have the rest of the week off tho, so im going to take the header/turbo back off for the 4th or 5th time, and im gonna wrap it, and figure out a vane control method..
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not to mention, ive got wiring issues this time around.. i hooked the injection pump and lift pump into the original coil power circuit, and it does not like that circuit. ive gone thru 2 relays soo far. thought it was the key switch at first. not so..
i have a good german fuse box, that im going to swap in, if i cant fix my issues..
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Cable or rod connecting vanes to the accelerator coupled with a wastegate to bypass the turbine and control max boost is workable. The downside to that approach is that with the pedal floored, the vanes will be in their closed position. At higher rpms the restriction of closed vanes will significantly impact maximum power. At higher rpms with boost controlled by vane position instead of wastegate, the vanes will be positioned in a very open position allowing excellent flow and considerably more power for that boost pressure.
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For your consideration tonight...
I just finished my VNT-15 linkage to adapt an ALH turbo to my 1.6TD this afternoon!!! It is primarily based on the work of libbydiesel (he supplied the converted vacuum-to-boost can) and tdihuntdawg, with a LOT of lessons learned from all of the rest that have gone before me on this journey to IDI goodness.
It includes:
2 bellcrank arms from Speedway motors,
3 10-32 heim joints, 2 10mm heim joints, 6mm threaded stainless and various hollow aluminum rod from McMaster-Carr, and
a return spring, a roll pin, metric and SAE nuts etc from Ace hardware.
The rest was designed & fabbed by me...so if it needs additional work I'm the guilty party.
here's a video link: http://s1264.photobucket.com/albums/jj492/Rock3tman/?action=view¤t=MVI_7211.mp4
(there's a few still pictures of the rig as well). I hope to have the rebuilt 1.6TD engine/FN trans w/ 3.67 R&P installed into my 1983 Jetta within a month with performance results to follow shortly.
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Cable or rod connecting vanes to the accelerator coupled with a wastegate to bypass the turbine and control max boost is workable. The downside to that approach is that with the pedal floored, the vanes will be in their closed position. At higher rpms the restriction of closed vanes will significantly impact maximum power. At higher rpms with boost controlled by vane position instead of wastegate, the vanes will be positioned in a very open position allowing excellent flow and considerably more power for that boost pressure.
im going to be doing the linkage control setup. so that the vanes are worked by my foot. its gonna be KINDA like libbys setup, but a little different.
i WILL NOT have my vanes closed at full pedal. i need my vanes open at full pedal..
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ROR, with my system, the vanes are only closed at full pedal until boost rises. Steady state full pedal will result in the vanes being as open as possible while being able to achieve max boost.
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The way I understand it, when boost pressure rises (probably quite quickly w/ a vnt-15 vs. your GT2056) then the boost will expand the actuator diaphragm and move the vanes to a more open position, reducing boost until equilibrium is reached for a given throttle position. I have a 0-30 psi boost/1500f EGT combo gauge, so I'm planning to use that to get out of the throttle if there's still too much boost. Will this work?
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ROR, with my system, the vanes are only closed at full pedal until boost rises. Steady state full pedal will result in the vanes being as open as possible while being able to achieve max boost.
i know, thats why i want to run them that way..
i want the turbo to not be a restriction..
but i think im going to need to limit the amount of travel the vanes can do. right now, once the vanes open, the turbo quits boosting.. i think i need a stop, as a way of adjusting max boost levels..
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If you installed a stronger spring in your wastegate actuator, you would increase your max boost.
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If you installed a stronger spring in your wastegate actuator, you would increase your max boost.
i really want an ADJUSTIBLE wastegate.. im about this far [--] from taking the adjustible wastegate off my K24, and using it.. i know that thing will work as i want it..
and its kinda hard to just open up a wastegate can.. all the ones i have are dinky, and fully open by 10 psi.. i know you can un-crimp a wastegate, but idk where i would find stiffer springs..
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For turning VNT actuators into boost cans, I have used micro nuts and bolts around the perimeter to make them resealable without messing with crimping and un-crimping. I have gotten stronger springs from McMaster and then cut them to size to dial in the boost pressure. You also have the option of adding an MBC to the boost can if you don't want to mess with the springs. With MBCs, tho, I've run into the issue that the smaller VNTs build boost so quickly that an MBC cannot react fast enough to regulate boost and so it can spike high and then drop back to the control pressure. Using LARGE hose and fittings can help with reaction time.
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For turning VNT actuators into boost cans, I have used micro nuts and bolts around the perimeter to make them resealable without messing with crimping and un-crimping. I have gotten stronger springs from McMaster and then cut them to size to dial in the boost pressure. You also have the option of adding an MBC to the boost can if you don't want to mess with the springs. With MBCs, tho, I've run into the issue that the smaller VNTs build boost so quickly that an MBC cannot react fast enough to regulate boost and so it can spike high and then drop back to the control pressure. Using LARGE hose and fittings can help with reaction time.
tried a boost controller.. my turbo doesnt like it. even with 1/8" ID line, it still boost to 25, blows the vanes open, goes back to 15psi, and then closes the vanes back up to 20psi.. i was using large hose. the fitting on the manifold was the smallest portion of the line..
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Yup, that's why I went to the stiffer springs. You could also add an external spring which would be easier to swap. It just has to act opposite the boost pressure.
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Yup, that's why I went to the stiffer springs. You could also add an external spring which would be easier to swap. It just has to act opposite the boost pressure.
i was thinking about adding an external spring(s) actually..
im gonna pull the turbo today, and rig up some linkages to it. i need to get my actuator up higher. right now, its about impossible to get to, so adjustments are basically out of the question..
i wanna get my vane actuator up higher, like up by the intake manifold..
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my linkage has the boost can & just about all of the adjustments at the top of the engine by the intake manifold - - the centerline of the manifold lines up with the axis of the shaft that has the adjustable arms.
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Rock3tman, your linkage looks great. I look forward to hearing about it when you get it up and running. With the VNT along with the liquid to air system your car should perform very well.
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ive got 2 male heim joints, 2 female heim joints, and 2 ball-n-socket couplers.
im gonna see what i can come up with in terms of atleast re-locating my boost can.. as well as rigging up a libby-style vane control system..
care if i use your idea Andrew? seems like thats how everyone else is controlling theirs.. and its PROVEN.
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I don't mind at all.
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For turning VNT actuators into boost cans, I have used micro nuts and bolts around the perimeter to make them resealable without messing with crimping and un-crimping. I have gotten stronger springs from McMaster and then cut them to size to dial in the boost pressure. You also have the option of adding an MBC to the boost can if you don't want to mess with the springs. With MBCs, tho, I've run into the issue that the smaller VNTs build boost so quickly that an MBC cannot react fast enough to regulate boost and so it can spike high and then drop back to the control pressure. Using LARGE hose and fittings can help with reaction time.
X2
Week two of non stuck vanes using Andrews system. Also noticed that I'm running decent egts which helps keep the vanes free, but nothing out of line. Nothing a downshift or a little more pedal (more boost) won't fix
I really like the picture of the water to air intercooler positioned where it is. That's the simplest setup I think I've seen.
Is that set up from Frozen boost?
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Yes on frozenboost AWIC; the only element I still need to work out is total liquid volume needed. Auxiliary radiator located between stock radiator and core support and aux water pump is located behind the front bumper bolted to the core support. I'm panning to use a stock radiator overflow reservoir located in the passenger side of the rain tray so that I can see fluid level, pump action, etc.
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Here's my latest mechanical vane control concept. The distinct advantage this version has over the previous one is that the accelerator lever can always return to idle regardless of boost pressure and there doesn't need to be the 'spring in the linkage" to allow the pump lever return spring to collapse the rod. I would have a little concern about the fact that the accelerator would be stuck if the vanes stuck, tho.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/VaneControlnoboostnopedal.jpg)
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/VaneControl-noboostfullpedal.jpg)
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/VaneControl-fullboostfullpedal.jpg)
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/VaneControl-fullboostnopedal.jpg)
The geometry would have to be exactly right to work correctly.
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does anyone have the SLIGHTEST idea as to what my turbo compares to? i keep having people ask me what its equivalent to, and i cant answer, because i have no idea what its comparable to, in terms of wastegated turbos..
so, is it closer to a T3, or a T4 in terms of the amount of air it can flow efficiently?
im thinking that it should be some what better than a T3, because it is said that the VNT15 flows like a T3 on the top end..
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2052 from 2,5 V6 is maxxed at about 180hp with 1,6.
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2052 from 2,5 V6 is maxxed at about 180hp with 1,6.
well, i dont have a 2052, so that doesnt tell me a whole bunch..
mine started out life as a 2056v, and got bigger wheels installed.
its a Street Toys ST3-BV turbo..
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To compare to common turbos it should flow a little less than a 60 trim t3(300+hp) and a little bit more than what most people consider a standard t3 which is a 45 trim with a .48 at housing (225hp). Vnt15 flows about the same as the *** vw t3 which is 35 trim around 150hp and *** for efficiency. It's in the 200-275 hp range for flow and would spool faster than all of that crap. Physical size wise it's a gt20 so it's a t2 or t25 sized turbo. The physical size of a turbo hardly means anything tho
To answer ur question tho its more like a medium sized t3 like a 45 or 50 trim, it's not like a t4 really at all they are much bigger and flow 350+hp. But yeah not like the vw t3 which is the smallest one available, more like the medium sized ones except more efficient and faster spooling especially since its a vnt
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well, andy2 suggested that i run an HX30 wastegate controller to operate the vanes.. solely based on boost pressure, not based on throttle position at all.. his thoughts were, that since the turbo is quite large already, it shouldnt be a restriction when cruising, even with the vanes all the way closed..
the HX30 WG actuator is supposed to fully open by ~23psi... and that would be IDEAL if you ask me.
is there such thing as a 2 stage wastegate?
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I'm not so sure about that, they are designed to be a restriction at idle so the EGR will work
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I'm not so sure about that, they are designed to be a restriction at idle so the EGR will work
it probably IS a restriction at idle on the engine it was intended to be run on.
so, what was the original purpose of the vanes? was it to make the turbo spool faster, make back pressure at idle so the EGR works, both?
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so, what was the original purpose of the vanes? was it to make the turbo spool faster, make back pressure at idle so the EGR works, both?
Both.
By setting the initial vane position to a not so closed position as they normally are run you sacrifice some of the low end spool, but get less back pressure while cruising. It spools quick compared to the stone age T3 and K24s anyway.
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Sorry, I phrased that wrong;
I'm not so sure about that, they are designed to be able to create a restriction at idle so the EGR will work
Better?
Even more so on the ones that serve in a braking function, the HE351VE (6.7 Cummins) closes to 3.9 CM housing equivalent, while the quick spool HE351 is like a 9 cm housing
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ok, so, i tried driving the car in the rain yesterday.. and it didnt work. well, it did fine, but you need 1/4 mile to safely pull out on the highway..
crappy tires, incorrect alignment, and lots of torque make for a SCARY ride in the rain.. this setup EASILY has as much torque @ 7psi, as my other VNT had at 15..
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i have a 2052 on a 1.9 and with vanes closed(not fully) its quite restrictive!
yours is bigger but even that way i wouldnt close them all the way...
you get the on-off response with just a boost can to operate the vanes,i feel that and my wastegate opens at 1bar,yours being higher would be even worse...
2 stage wastegate?
i am planing on running mine at 1 bar and the add a boost controller in another line to incresed the boost to my demand.
an electric servo would switch from sissy 1 bar to OMG boost by a flick of a button...
is that what you want?
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i have a 2052 on a 1.9 and with vanes closed(not fully) its quite restrictive!
yours is bigger but even that way i wouldnt close them all the way...
you get the on-off response with just a boost can to operate the vanes,i feel that and my wastegate opens at 1bar,yours being higher would be even worse...
2 stage wastegate?
i am planing on running mine at 1 bar and the add a boost controller in another line to incresed the boost to my demand.
an electric servo would switch from sissy 1 bar to OMG boost by a flick of a button...
is that what you want?
even tho i only have a 10psi wastegate controller working the vanes, it still works good, for what it is atleast.. my vanes are NOT closed. they are closed for a split second, but the wastegate actuator starts opening them by like 5 psi..
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Exhaust Bore size
36.60mm A/R=.65 on GT1749V and VNT15
37.26mm A/R=.61 on GT1749VA
38.23mm A/R=.61 on GT1749VB
38.65mm A/R=.62 on GT1749VC (Third generation vane)
40mm A/R=.74 on GTB1756VK (Third generation vane)
42mm A/R=.64 on GTB2056VL Volvo (Third generation vane)
43mm A/R=.59 on GTB2056VK Q7 (Third generation vane)
44.5mm A/R=.74 on GTB2260VK (Third generation vane)
I found some info for you.
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R.O.R how is this setup still running? Did you ever get around to making that mechanical vnt control? Or are you still using the wastegate boost can method?
Sorry to thread resurrect but I read through it recently from start to finish and it has me interested in how your n/a engine is holding up to such a large turbo. Plus with the vnt goodness i'd really like to see what a dyno plot would look like.
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R.O.R how is this setup still running? Did you ever get around to making that mechanical vnt control? Or are you still using the wastegate boost can method?
Sorry to thread resurrect but I read through it recently from start to finish and it has me interested in how your n/a engine is holding up to such a large turbo. Plus with the vnt goodness i'd really like to see what a dyno plot would look like.
ive been driving it..
the wastegate can is a HORRIBLE way to operate the turbo..
im on my 4th wastegate actuator.. it keeps eating the diaphragms..
i think the heat keeps killing them.
never messed with the linkage, im trying to move, and fix other cars, and i just dont have time for the VNT..
its been just fine tho.. works great on the road. runs nice and cool, never more than 1000*, even pulling hills..
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Sounds like a beast! Still psyched to see a n/a dealing with these pressures consistently.
I'm trying to figure out how hard it would be to design a mechanical control as my vnt may be going in soon and I don't want to ruin my nicely functioning vanes.. but it seems like the boost can method is out.
Did you run this with no down pipe for awhile? I may have been mistaken but I thought that I read that somewhere. Is that okay to do?
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Sounds like a beast! Still psyched to see a n/a dealing with these pressures consistently.
I'm trying to figure out how hard it would be to design a mechanical control as my vnt may be going in soon and I don't want to ruin my nicely functioning vanes.. but it seems like the boost can method is out.
Did you run this with no down pipe for awhile? I may have been mistaken but I thought that I read that somewhere. Is that okay to do?
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i think the boost can method is acceptable, you just have to have a boost can that opens at the proper pressures to work right with the turbo.. i wouldnt run straight boost can tho on a smaller VNT.. they react too quickly, and are too restrictive when they are closed down.
yes, i have an open downpipe. always have had.
basically, if you want a fool-proof vane control design, take Andrew's (Libbybapa, er, Libbydiesel) linkage setup (The Libby Links) and incorporate that into your build.. they have been used successfully in many builds..
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So exhaust just exits out the hot side of your turbo under your hood?
I want to build a linkage but it seems like a ton of trial and error and it would have to be a fairly precise linkage I would think to actuate the vanes efficiently and correctly.. I might start trying to build a mock design on my n/a block after I get the new block in.
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So exhaust just exits out the hot side of your turbo under your hood?
I want to build a linkage but it seems like a ton of trial and error and it would have to be a fairly precise linkage I would think to actuate the vanes efficiently and correctly.. I might start trying to build a mock design on my n/a block after I get the new block in.
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no, i have a DOWNPIPE.. like, a regular downpipe..
it just doesnt have an exhaust hooked up to it..
im not done beating my head on the wall with wastegate actators, im convinced that with the right actuator, i can make my turbo work right...
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Oh okay. For some reason I thought I read somewhere that you were driving it and then a later post said you were going to make a down pipe... my bad.
Yeah I mean it was computer controlled via vacuum at first right? There should be a way to get it to work someway. Does the vacuum pump change at all determined on load? Or just rpm?
Also how does this turbo compare to your old vnt 15? I know you have said it flows alot more air and boosy obviously. But what about lag? And intake temps/ egts?
I have a gt1749v (I believe ) and I've heard lately some people complaining about how small of a turbo it is and I'm wondering if maybe I should try and sell it or trade it for something a little larger or keep it and run it for awhile..
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Oh okay. For some reason I thought I read somewhere that you were driving it and then a later post said you were going to make a down pipe... my bad.
Yeah I mean it was computer controlled via vacuum at first right? There should be a way to get it to work someway. Does the vacuum pump change at all determined on load? Or just rpm?
Also how does this turbo compare to your old vnt 15? I know you have said it flows alot more air and boosy obviously. But what about lag? And intake temps/ egts?
I have a gt1749v (I believe ) and I've heard lately some people complaining about how small of a turbo it is and I'm wondering if maybe I should try and sell it or trade it for something a little larger or keep it and run it for awhile..
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GT1749V is just a fancy name for VNT15.. they work AMAZING on 1.6Ds
i cant compare my new VNT20 to my old VNT15.. i never had an EGT gauge on the 15.. but i know you could get it HOT.. because i heat seized my engine with it before..
what car/engine do you want to rn your VNT15 on? cause myself personally, i LOVE those turbos if you arent asking for crazy boost or power..
the vacuum pump produces pretty much the same amount of vacuum no matter what RPM its turning.. the vacuum pump is in no way load sensitive.. thats why they have the N75 valve, and all those vacuum switches and solenoids to control the VNT on a TDI..
the VNTs are computer/vacuum controlled on the TDI engines.. but i dont think there is an easy way to adapt the vacuum system to an IDI engine easily..
i DID have just a turbo (no downpipe) for the first drive, but thats it.. i made a downpipe at school the next day. if i ran my turbo with no downpipe for more than a mile or 2, i would have a thoroughly black engine room in no time, plus a melted shifter, and probably no brakes as well..
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Oh okay. For some reason I thought I read somewhere that you were driving it and then a later post said you were going to make a down pipe... my bad.
Yeah I mean it was computer controlled via vacuum at first right? There should be a way to get it to work someway. Does the vacuum pump change at all determined on load? Or just rpm?
Also how does this turbo compare to your old vnt 15? I know you have said it flows alot more air and boosy obviously. But what about lag? And intake temps/ egts?
I have a gt1749v (I believe ) and I've heard lately some people complaining about how small of a turbo it is and I'm wondering if maybe I should try and sell it or trade it for something a little larger or keep it and run it for awhile..
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GT1749V is just a fancy name for VNT15.. they work AMAZING on 1.6Ds
i cant compare my new VNT20 to my old VNT15.. i never had an EGT gauge on the 15.. but i know you could get it HOT.. because i heat seized my engine with it before..
what car/engine do you want to rn your VNT15 on? cause myself personally, i LOVE those turbos if you arent asking for crazy boost or power..
the vacuum pump produces pretty much the same amount of vacuum no matter what RPM its turning.. the vacuum pump is in no way load sensitive.. thats why they have the N75 valve, and all those vacuum switches and solenoids to control the VNT on a TDI..
the VNTs are computer/vacuum controlled on the TDI engines.. but i dont think there is an easy way to adapt the vacuum system to an IDI engine easily..
i DID have just a turbo (no downpipe) for the first drive, but thats it.. i made a downpipe at school the next day. if i ran my turbo with no downpipe for more than a mile or 2, i would have a thoroughly black engine room in no time, plus a melted shifter, and probably no brakes as well..
Haha okay thanks for clearing up the confusion. I thought maybe I just read wrong.
Yeah the vnt15(i just thought I'd use the technical name) seemed like a good turbo at the time. It was going on a n/a mk1 rabbit. I was going to aim for around 15 psi or maybe a couple more depending on how ambitious I got :)
But since that engine blew up I ended up getting a td block and head. I'll probably run it n/a at first.. but soon I'd like to put either this or maybe something a little bigger on and shoot for some decent daily driver horsepower. I was trying to be conservative with my n/a block but I feel more confident with this block.
I'd like to stay with a vnt but I feel like with a td block I could do some mid 20s for a blast of a daily. So I guess my only other options are the 17 or the 20 like you have.
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im running ~20psi on a stock n/a engine..
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Haha yeah not gonna lie you were basically the inspiration for turboing my n/a...
Anyway sorry to threadjack a bit. Any plans to dyno this beast ever?
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Haha yeah not gonna lie you were basically the inspiration for turboing my n/a...
Anyway sorry to threadjack a bit. Any plans to dyno this beast ever?
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not gonna waste my money at the dyno until i know it makes plenty of power..
maybe when i get the turbo working properly, then i will dyno it..
still need to build and install the Peugeot TD pump..
and FWIW, my engine started out life as a vanagon engine, so its used to being worked hard..