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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Joey on May 13, 2012, 10:12:54 pm
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hello all. i recently bought a 81 rabbit 4 door to use as a daily driver. ive tried to repair the spun rod bearing by taking some emry cloth to the crank. it didnt work :-\
still knockin. then pulled the head off and changed the rod due to it being a bit out of round. the cylinders have a nice big ridge at the top. threw it back together to drive it. well its time to build a new engine because now its burming oil.
because i live in california, there is not many of these vw diesels around. i have forund another 1.6 na but i want to go to turbo. i would also like to go to a 1.9td but its looking like getting one is going to be a pain.
so my question is:
can i convert the internals of a 1.6na to make it a td and is it possible to add the cooling nozzles to an n/a block?
also i read somewhere that it is possible to take a 1.8 gasser block and bore it, then use the 1.6na crank, and 1.9 pistons to make a 1.9td.
is it possible?
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There are a lot of people running turbos on n/a internals. As long as you keep the boost at reasonable levels and an eye on your egt's you'll be fine.
I know nothing of boring gasser blocks to make 1.9td but it sounds dangerous.
How much power are you looking for?
What do your compression and leakdown tests look like? You may just want to do a refresh and slap a turbo on and call it a day?
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The 1.8 has a larger bore than the 1.9 oddly enough. Even if you did use a 1.9 bore with a 1.6 crank, you'd end up with a 1.7. I would suggest finding the engine you want and paying what it's worth in to bring it into Cali. It'll probably be cheaper in the long run than machining a Frankenstein monster from parts available. I could crate you up and ship you down a motor, but I doubt it'll be cheap.
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well it seems the cheapest i can get a desent running 1.9 with a 100k miles is around $2k
as for the 1.8 thats why i asked, cant always believe the internet lol.
havent done a leakdown, but the gap between the piston and cylinder is about .030" maybe a bit more.
im looking for around 150 to 200hp does this sound reasonable?
i was also looking at the 1.9 head conversion since i need a head anyway, its cracked, in spec but still pressurizes the coolant.
and how reliable would it be if i were to turbo a n/a 1.6? i tend to have a lead foot.
JamesT how much would you want for a 1.9? what condition is it in?
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150-200hp is high for an idi daily driver.
Afaik running a turbo on n/a internals is quite reliable if you keep the boost below 20psi or so and keep your egt's down but to get your power numbers, if you're serious about them, will require a big turbo, vnt or compound setup running a lot of boost.
Thought about m-tdi?
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I have a 1.6/1.9 head, with k24, aaz intake, intercooler and straight 2.25 dp/exhaust running 25psi, 1200egt max is darn near 140-150hp, it's spinning on the top of 3rd gear in my 81 caddy, 02a.
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nathan_b is your 1.6 an n/a or td internals?
ive never heard of a m-tdi? i will research it
so around a 100hp is doable, i could live with that, it scoots pretty good for a worn out n/a, i would guess its probly around 50hp at the moment.
how hard would it be to add the oil squirters to the n/a block? other than valves, pistons, and the oil squirters, is there any other internal differences? from what i can find, the crank and rods seem to be the same.
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Id love to see 120 ish for my toyota, lol
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i looked into it an m-tdi would be awesome, maybe one day, right now i dont need the headache, plus the cheapest i can find a tdi around here is $2800 for a used runner. :-\
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kb pistons, stock td block.
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Id love to see 120 ish for my toyota, lol
they came stock with 150hp V6 engines..
but the quality was hit n miss..
most toyota V6s ive seen were neglected, and blew head gaskets left and right..
ive got almost 100k miles on my replaced head gaskets, and it hasnt hiccuped once..
i LOVE my 3VZ-E... i really wish i could get my hands on one of the IRONMAN Ivan Stewart's 900+hp 3.0L toyota V6 desert racer engines!
ive ALMOST got my buddy talked into swapping a TDI into his 88 toyota pickup..
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most toyota V6s ive seen were neglected, and blew head gaskets left and right..
ive got almost 100k miles on my replaced head gaskets, and it hasnt hiccuped once..
i LOVE my 3VZ-E... i really wish i could get my hands on one of the IRONMAN Ivan Stewart's 900+hp 3.0L toyota V6 desert racer engines!
You must be doing something right. I thought these (3.0 V6) were like Humpty Dumpty of engines. Once the head gasket goes, it's broken and there's nothing you can do to put it back together again.
nathan_b is your 1.6 an n/a or td internals?
ive never heard of a m-tdi? i will research it
so around a 100hp is doable, i could live with that, it scoots pretty good for a worn out n/a, i would guess its probly around 50hp at the moment.
how hard would it be to add the oil squirters to the n/a block? other than valves, pistons, and the oil squirters, is there any other internal differences? from what i can find, the crank and rods seem to be the same.
To answer your questions, first realize that there were 1.6 INTERCOOLED TDs that came with like 80 horsepower. To push 100 hp on these IMO is at the top of the range for what the regular Joe can do with one of these. Open up the intake, and especially the exhaust and you will see a lot of HP gains. Add a turbo, intercooler and well designed piping and I think you can be around 100 hp. These are light cars but even with that you will still be slower than a lot of stock sporty cars on the road, keep that in mind. But you will have a car that is reasonably fun to drive and is still more economical than most cars on the road today, even with all the "advancements" in technology over the past 30 years.
The oil squirters do not simply bolt into a n/a block to make it a TD block. Machining is required... If you're in the market for a new engine and want to upgrade I recommend a real TD block, they're rare but they do exist. Check craigslist, this place, the vortex relentlessly. If you are patient and are willing to travel a few hours to get one, I think you will find one eventually. They came in Jettas only, at least around here. The cheapest way to get one might be someone selling a car, especially if it's not running, beat to hell, not registered, no title, wife wants it gone, or something like that. I've seen them pop up from time to time. People dealing in the engines tend to know that they're rare and ask a lot for them.
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I'll post a video tonight and you can tell me I am if you think it is only 100hp. stock pump and bottom end, stock aaz head. k24, intercooled. my caddy blows a 16v mk1 out of the water. and a 16v is much more than 100hp. even a 1.8.
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I'll post a video tonight and you can tell me I am if you think it is only 100hp. stock pump and bottom end, stock aaz head. k24, intercooled. my caddy blows a 16v mk1 out of the water. and a 16v is much more than 100hp. even a 1.8.
turned up pump and a K24 will make more than stock 16v power..
mine SCOOTED, and it was a full on 1.6, no AAZ head..
definitely more than 100hp.
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After intercooling, mine was fast.
Giles pump should net you over 100hp in a TD no other mods done.
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After intercooling, mine was fast.
Giles pump should net you over 100hp in a TD no other mods done.
meh, idk about that, stock TD downpipe and exhaust system are HORRID.. i doubt they are capable of evacuating 100hp worth of exhaust..
i bet with a 100% stock TD (68hp factory) that you would be high 80s, maybe low 90s, with just the addition of the giles pump. when you add a good exhaust, and turn up the boost, and add a FMIC is when these things COME ALIVE..
i miss my TD.. i wanna buy another VNT for it, except make it work this time..
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Just going by what Giles said his dyno numbers on what he had seen were. He claimed engines with over 200,000 all stock would yield about a 40-50% increase in stock HP in our VW TD's.
I never realized how fast my 1.6 was until I bought the ALH with the stage 1 and .205 nozzles. I thought it would really go, and it does pick up faster than the 1.6 did, but after 2,000 RPM completely different story.
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On thing to consider is that horsepower is rather arbitrary. Where the performance peak occurs matters. A turbo diesel might make most of it's power above 200 rpm and might make 100 hp at 4000 rpm while a 16v might make 130hp at 6000 but doesn't really start making power until 3000 rpm... which one is faster, that becomes a difficult question to answer, but the 16v will still probably get to that peak performance sooner.
I've read that a turbocharged, mechanical, inter-cooled diesel engine will have about the same performance as a normally aspirated, performance-oriented, mass market gasoline engine of the same displacement. So somewhere between 80 and 120 hp is probably realistic.
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thanks for all the replies, it looks like im going to be rebuilding a 1.6n/a and adding a turbo setup off of a tdi. mostly because im running out of time. apparently the rabbit heard me talking about it, and she started knocking again pretty loud. also found it 2.5 qts low on oil today :-\ it doesnt leak and its only been alive for 2 weeks.
so, when i go through the engine is there anything i should look for? how much ring ridge in the cylinders is too much before it needs to be bored? do the blocks or cranks have any problems? any issues with block core shift? idler shaft problems? etc.
ive also read something about a 1.9 headgasket on a 1.6? or is there a better one ?
thanks again for the help guys
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If you can catch your finger nail noticeably on the ridge, it's too out of spec. I'd just go ahead and bor it 0.5mm over either way. Piston and ring sets are readily available, and you won't have to worry about ring gap since it'll be like new. Might need new rods, too, if you've got knock. Theck them for out-of-round.
These blocks are VERY solid. As long as they have 12mm cylinder head bolt threads, and you keep the boost down on the N/A's, then everything will go smoothly. As for the intermediate shaft, check if it moves too much in the bore with the new bearing; unfortunately I don't know if there's a spec for radial play for the IS; I've only seeen axial play specs.
Talk to Nathan_b for multi-layer steel head gaskets. He manages a shop that specializes in the VW diesels, and can get some great parts including the 1.9/1.6 MLS gaskets. You won't be disappointed; ask me how I know. ;)
Don't forget a build thread when it all goes down!
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Joey i have a TD block for sale, personally i dont know how much these go for but im will to part with it for a good price,Maybe some one can chime in and throw out a decent price range. ;D
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so i talked to the guy that has a couple short blocks, he says he wants $50 for each. i will have to see if hey have the 12mm bolts, mine only has the 11mm. he also said there in not any ring ridge on either of them, but i have to actually go see, because i bought the car off him and he said the engine in the car was fine >:(.
One_punchmachinegun, thanks for the offer, but its only $150 more to ship a whole 1.9 to me from canada. i cant believe how much it costs to ship sh!t
so what is the down fall of 11mm headbolts, do the threads strip in the block or something? what if i use arp studs?
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Look in the FAQ for 11mm head bolts. It has a write up of how the best way to do them is. Also to mildly answer, the block cracks on the 11mm
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Do realize that the 1.9 came in both TD and n/a versions so be careful what you get. And the 1.9 was never sold in the United States. This alone would discourage me from getting one. I can get VW diesel parts at wholesale prices but my supplier does not carry parts for engines that weren't sold in the U.S. Some of the parts are the same as other VW engines but not all.
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Look in the FAQ for 11mm head bolts. It has a write up of how the best way to do them is. Also to mildly answer, the block cracks on the 11mm
the downfall is, the block is weak as hell.. and the head bolts dont thread far enough into the block to allow good clamping force..
so instead, they dont thread in far enough, and the threads that are engaged by the bolt, are over loaded, and then in turn, they SPLIT.
and when your block cracks at the head bolt bosses, the bosses never hold torque ever again. Brett (username Maxfax on here) has WELDED the cracks up on his old 11mm block, but he did that just to see how long it would last, or if it would even work.. anyways, it did work, but it was never perfect, you couldnt keep oil out of the coolant after that one, and it wasnt surprising honestly..
the way you FIX your 11mm block is to buy ARP head studs for it, that fully engage 100% of the threads in the bosses on the block.. they are much tougher than stock 11mm head bolts, but cost about 10x more too.. but given the fragile nature of the 11mm blocks, its VERY worth the price, just for the added piece of mind.. i still wouldnt try and build a HOTROD engine out of an 11mm block, because you end up cracking the block, and lifting the head from too much boost. ive personally done it, blew the end out of my block, and the head wasnt held on by very much either. i think 4-10 head bolts were actually still torqued.. the other 6 were quite loose, some of them just barely finger tight..
so, yea.. if you ask an 11mm block to do too much, they will crack, and then you basically gotta replace the block, and sometimes its easier to just find a new engine..
DO BUY ARP HEAD STUDS THO, EVEN IF YOU KEEP IT A STOCK N/A..
for 11mm blocks, in my opinion, they are REQUIRED to safely boost a 11mm block...
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well that sucks. hopefully one if not both of the other shortblocks has the 12mm bolts. and if not at least i will have extra blocks, lol.
as for the arp studs, i was plannin on getting them anyway, every diesel should have them.
is there a reason there is no alignment dowels for the head? working as a master tech this is the first engine that ive ever seen without the alignment dowels.
when i go and build the new engine would it be worth putting some in?
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well that sucks. hopefully one if not both of the other shortblocks has the 12mm bolts. and if not at least i will have extra blocks, lol.
as for the arp studs, i was plannin on getting them anyway, every diesel should have them.
is there a reason there is no alignment dowels for the head? working as a master tech this is the first engine that ive ever seen without the alignment dowels.
when i go and build the new engine would it be worth putting some in?
old VW engines never got alignment dowels..
newer ones did, as well as most of the gassers, but none of my old diesels have dowel pins..
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Do realize that the 1.9 came in both TD and n/a versions so be careful what you get. And the 1.9 was never sold in the United States. This alone would discourage me from getting one. I can get VW diesel parts at wholesale prices but my supplier does not carry parts for engines that weren't sold in the U.S. Some of the parts are the same as other VW engines but not all.
. The an 1.9 had oil squirters too the only real difference was that it had longer rods
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so my next question is, if i go with a 12mm block, can i run an 11mm head if the machine shop bores out the bolt holes?
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so my next question is, if i go with a 12mm block, can i run an 11mm head if the machine shop bores out the bolt holes?
as long as the washers fit in the recesses..