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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Gator79 on May 10, 2012, 03:05:43 pm
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I want to check internal pump pressure on my rabbit td, only thing I can find on here is tapping into the out bolt or the stand off neither of witch I want to do. Can I splice into the return line right after the out bolt or will that not give an accurate reading or evan work at all? If there's a better way please let me know thanks.
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Return line gives external IP fuel return pressure- not what you're looking for. If you don't want to do the two you mentioned, another option is to drill a hole in the IP cover and put a barb there. ;D
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No, the holes in the "out" banjo bolt are tiny, which won't give you an accurate reading of the internal pump pressure unless you drill and tap the end of the bolt, which is directly connected to the internal pressure of the pump.
If you're hesitant to modify the bolt itself, you could (assuming you have access to some basic tools) make a new, custom stand-off which has a fitting for a pressure line to a gauge using stuff that should be readily available at a good hardware store. That's probably what I'll end up doing when I get around to checking my IP pressure.
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Another option is rent it from me. I have a spare out pedestal, drilled and tapped for a pressure gauge.
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Or google the late "Hagar transfer pressure smileage" and you should find lots of info, dont use his transfer pressures unless yours is an early Rabbit.
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i have one odd question about internal pump pressure. is it possible tu meaure appproximate internal pressure according to overflow quantity? in this document there are some figures about overflow values.... and i thought that measuring it will help me a bit. correct me if i'm wrong ;D my problem is that after heating up well car starts to twitch on light throttle. as soon as i push it hard twitching goes away. so i'm trying to find what could be the problem
cheers vako (y)
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Hagar had quantity at idle figured out as well. Something like a liter in 90 seconds. Not sure on the liter part but go look. His premise was if it is proper at idle then the rest would take care of itself. If you didn't get the proper quantity then you would tap down on the regulator in the front of the IP and adjust it. Tap easy it only needs to move a tiny bit to change the internal pressure.
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i've got one more question ??? where car i find hagar info? i've searched teh web but some links are dead and i was not able to find anything :(
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Or google the late "Hagar transfer pressure smileage"
X2,work for my google.
or internal injection pump pressure.
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the most informative thread i found was this http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5936&start=0 and read the whole topic.. but still there are no overflow values :(
i will have to wait for the sensor for 2-3 weeks (to be shipped from usa, i live in georgia country) so monitoring IP internal pressure with the pump is a bit of an issue for me :D
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I think this might has been the link, but it is a long one. Unfortunately the writer is no longer with us.
http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4868 (http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4868)
A good rummage in the scrapyard should find a Bosch pump with a suitable pedestal. It's not just a VW thingy.
I would be most leery on the "driller killer" approach on a working pump, unless you want a hole in a knackered pump.
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625ml/90 seconds... at idle, I believe.
If you google "Going back in the thread, Hagar said" (with quotes, for the phrase) you can see some discussion.
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Smutts has the link proper. Just search for some terms mentioned here and you will find it.
I went looking for the summary sheet I started to build one time as I was reading the thread and can't find it on the computer now. Could be on the spare desktop one. The 625 ml looks better to me than my original 1 liter measure. Thanks for the correction TylerD.
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if you don`t have many OUT bolts than
(http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt215/milos022/adap.jpg)
http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5936&start=195#p69202
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No, the holes in the "out" banjo bolt are tiny, which won't give you an accurate reading of the internal pump pressure unless you drill and tap the end of the bolt, which is directly connected to the internal pressure of the pump.
If you're hesitant to modify the bolt itself, you could (assuming you have access to some basic tools) make a new, custom stand-off which has a fitting for a pressure line to a gauge using stuff that should be readily available at a good hardware store. That's probably what I'll end up doing when I get around to checking my IP pressure.
That won't work because the "tiny hole" is in the end of the bolt is a metering oriface and that end screws into the pump. Drilling and tapping the head of the bolt is still checking external pressure, not internal. Opening up the "Out" bolt oriface messes up the internal pressure.
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The small holes are in the perimeter of the OUT bolt. Drilling and tapping the center is definitely still on the high pressure side of the bolt. The hole in the end of the bolt has a small screen in it but it definitely isn't the metering orifice.
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today after 30 kilometer city cruise my engine started to idle lower than it normally does. so as soon as i got home found 250ml of ATF in the garage and started the car right from ATF bottle. in the begining overflow was quite normal but after atf/diesel fluid got hotter the flow became noticeably less. after running the engine on different revs for few minutes and using up the all 250 ml of fluid car started to idle better, and it kinda smokes less than before. engine is idling way better, twitching at low throttle(when moving in gear) is still there but it seems to become less noticeable. to morrow i will heat up the engine (till the fan cycles once) and then measure overflow volume, if it is somewhere between 500-600ml/90 secs i will leave the pressure regulator alone ( my engine is AAZ and idles ~900) ;D
and i have 3 more questions ;D....
1) what do you think about winn's diesel purge? should i try more atf or winn's fluid?
3)can clogged up injectors cause twitching at low revs (only when the car is moving)?
2) what about cleaning injector nozzle mechanically (without damaging it of course), if i take injector apart and clean the nozzle itself....
thats my girl ;D
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I would not open the injectors without having a pop-tester to check the break-pressure and spray pattern.
I would suspect the IP internals as well as the injectors, regarding low RPM erratic running. I would circulate more cleaner.
I use Lubro-Moly Diesel Purge, it's good... not sure about Winns.
I have heard that injection system cleaner is mostly naptha, so I recently ran 500ml naptha mixed with 150ml ATF into the IP as a cleaner, the same as I would with Diesel Purge. It seemed to work pretty well.
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I would like to know a number on how low of RPM's. Also what weight of the spacer and flywheel combo there
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my flywheel weights 17pounds/7.7kgs, as i remember it's it's a bit lighter that vw flwyheel ;D i also do not have front harmonic balancer, instead i have installed tracker solid pulley, that is way lighter than stock one. i only get some nasty high pitch vibrations somewhere at 1100 revs (i can see external parts resonate only at very very narrow rev range maybe 2-5 revs, it is so narrow that i cant even catch that moment with accel pedal, and happens for a fraction of a second only when i rev the engine up or down). other than that engine works well for 3 years/25 000kms already :)
i do not have tachometer i don't know how low was the idle yesterday, but i have laser tach & i will check the revs today.
as for ip internals. i have resealed my pump this winter, and all the internals seemed to be in almost perfect condition, there was no scoring or significant wear inside the pump. i did the reseal because of the main shaft seal and lda seal. i have not dissasambled the lift pump (which creates the internal pressure) but i'm sure that lift pump is in perfect condition too, as was the rest of the pump :D
yesterday i installed clear return line on the pump and there were no signs of bubbles there, even when the car started twitching. so i assume that there is no air problem in the pump.
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how about fuel restriction further upstream?
I had one car with a floating bit of foil i the tank give me a hell of a runaround as when you turned the motor off, it wold fall way from the pickup, and not bother you for hours or weeks.
Also inspect and clean the screen in your out bolt for good luck.
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small update :D
today i made more strong alternator bracket and small vibration mentioned above is now gone (after three years of beeing there ;D).
then that i checked the overflow. after heating the car a bit (not till the fan came on, because i have 10 liters in cooling system an it takes almost an hour to heat up properly) i checked the overflow. my car idles 950rpm after getting up to normal temp i got 70-75 ml of diesel in 15 seconds .
according to hagar normal flow is: "Next simple test : The flowtest at idle. ---625 ml in 90 seconds ---you have a good IP. "
Approximately 7 ml / sec, 104 in 15 sec, 208 / 30 sec, 416 / min..
after knocking a bit on the pressure regulator at first i got 80mls and after few attempts of knocking overflow increased to 90ml, and i left it alone (i have moved the regulator pin only 0.2-0.4 milimeters, it is even hard to nitice by eye). but according to the sound dynamic timing has increased a bit and i do not hear any difference between cold start lever pulled out an pushed in, i hope i did not increase the pressure too much :D soon i will test drive the car and inform you how it will drive
as for the pickup screen dirt i had removed my tank 2 years ago and it was quite clean, also pickup screen has spherical shape an it is almost impossible to be clogged up from the bottom side :/
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80-90ml... really?
I would check the OUT bolt for a plugged screen or orifice.
If the screen is plugged, the IP internal pressure could be too high. More importantly, not enough fuel circulating through the IP will cause it to overheat, since the fuel cools and lubricates the IP internals. That's why there is >10x fuel passing through the IP than is actually used for combustion.
If the screen in the OUT bolt and the orifice are clean,
check for restrictions in the supply and return lines, by repeating the test to/from a bottle.
If same output (low), substitute an IN bolt at the output fitting and repeat the test.
If same output (low), the lift-section of the IP is suspect.
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overall it would be 480ml instead of 625 (stated by hagar) in 90 seconds and yes it seems low :D
i had a test drive few minutes earlier, diesel clacking seems to become more audible after the adjstment, car pulls well and idles almost flawlessly. and during the test drive twitching on low throttle became less noticeable :D but the only thing that i am concerned about is the noise... when i rev it up above 1500 it seems more noisy that it would be with pulled out cold start lever, and is tarts easier than before :|
i suspect that i will have to get the pressure measured somehow :D
p.s. there is no restriction in feed or return lines. but i will check the small filter in out bolt tomorrow
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(http://vardzelashvili.com/imghost/images/96231_DSC7931_1600x1200_.jpg) (http://vardzelashvili.com/imghost/view.php?filename=96231_DSC7931_1600x1200_.jpg)(http://vardzelashvili.com/imghost/images/20859_DSC7932_1600x1200_.jpg) (http://vardzelashvili.com/imghost/view.php?filename=20859_DSC7932_1600x1200_.jpg)
this is how much i knocked the pin down, old dust layer is seen very well
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You may now need to check the timing. Remember more pressure more advance. That is likely why the start lever no longer does anything. It only puts a few degrees of advance to the pump. Once the pressure builds during higher revs you may now be advanced to the point of marbles on plate clack.
Just some thoughts to chew on.
And I just saw the picture come up while posting. Find a way to measure the pressure, that will be best. I run a gauge inside the car and can see the change from 48 clear to 100 psi when I really get on it. So I know the dynamics of this internal pressure can be pretty large.
Chances are if you tap on the regualtor again it may go to far as you have now broken the friction on it. If you goe to far you have to remove the whole thing and drive all parts out the bottom and reload from the top and start over. Don't ask how I know that.
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the cold start cable advances timing 3 degrees afaik.
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2.5o cam (= 5o crank.)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-InMd4lrpVDE/UO-GED_yEOI/AAAAAAAAA5c/eBggi7Fovqs/s400/Mech-KSB-graph.png)
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yes i have the clack :D so maybe i will have to remove the thing and reload it to the position where it was in the begining :D i somewhere saw a picture pressure regulator valve disassambly and reseting, but i can not find it anymore :|
how many degrees can fuel pressure advance dynamic timing?
few mminutes ago we did the same thing with my friend's land rover discovery td300 :D but that car seems to have waaay more sensitive regulator valve, so it clack's like a tractor now :D
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how many degrees can fuel pressure advance dynamic timing?
I can't remember where I saw it and I haven't measured it (yet)... it might be 14o crank (unless it's a Giles pump, I think he mods the case to allow more advance).
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there was lot of fiber pieces in out bolt filter.... i cleand all out. and now (with the pressure increased) i get just the right flow from furl return line ~100ml-s in 15 seconds. should i live the pressure alone or try to lower it to the point it was before i knocked the regulator? ???
if i want to lower the pressure i will also have to change the regulator itself, as i founf out it has a crack on the top, where moving piston is located. does anyone have it for sale? :D
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I think they can still be purchased new.
If the regulator is not leaking, I'd run with it as is. :)
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http://www.hansdieselparts.com/PumpPressureValve.htm
success :D
on monday i will show my car to diesel specialist and if he says noise is normal than i will wait for timing tool to arrive from usa and then adjust static timing + readjust pressure with the gauge and new pressure regulator
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Errm... I'd check local or EU shops for that part, before buying from that guy. (big hint)
Regarding the twitching, keep in mind the IP is sensitive to some types of vibration (very common is a loose mounting bolt by the HP section)... the change of the front pulley/harmonic balancer might have some effect there.
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maybe i 'll get some used pressure regulator from local diesel shops. i have bought ip front seal from that shop and hope it will work for 2-3 years :D
all the mounting bolts on ip are tightened well. i had loose bolt problem when i installed vw engine in my car 3 years ago, it was twitchin on high revs and pump was vibrating like crazy. bu after tightening that bolt it worked very well. i had this pulley from day one and serious twitching started few weeks ago. maybe it was out bolt problem which was clogged badly... i will test drive my car well on monday and write the summary :D
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what kind of fibers? that seems strange.
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i think fibers were from main diesel filter :/
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few days ago car started boiling right after starting it up :D blown head gasket, new topic and pictures coming up soon i will need your advices for my rebuild :D
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there was lot of fiber pieces in out bolt filter.... i cleand all out. and now (with the pressure increased) i get just the right flow from furl return line ~100ml-s in 15 seconds. should i live the pressure alone or try to lower it to the point it was before i knocked the regulator? Huh?
Well done, that has saved you having to buy a new pump, if the fuel overheats due to it blocking, the control collar seizes and rips itself free of the govenor linkage. ;)
When you are fixing the head gasket, wonder why VW made it impossible to remove the head without yanking the cam pulley off the crankshaft. It has always annoyed me. >:(
Good luck with doing the head.
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wonder why VW made it impossible to remove the head without yanking the cam pulley off the crankshaft.
Why is the cam pulley on the crankshaft? lmao
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Cam pulley - camshaft Crank Pulley - Crankshaft. Am I misunderstanding something here? I don't remove the cam pulley when taking the head off. It makes for a great handle.
WTH????
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You have an older engine.. the newer backing plate (iunless removed..) is in the way.
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i also have not to remove crank pulley during the head change (but i had to remove cam pulley), i'm so happy i bought pulley puller for 6$-s :D it already did a great job for me. but anyways i'm going to change crank pulley with a newer tdi style pulley.
for more info http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34017.0
what do you think about cylinder scoring?
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how many degrees can fuel pressure advance dynamic timing?
I can't remember where I saw it and I haven't measured it (yet)... it might be 14o crank (unless it's a Giles pump, I think he mods the case to allow more advance).
Ahhh yes, 24o is normal.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3PM7_TWSoTg/UVMJzFfri0I/AAAAAAAABHU/6V5LPf5bvgY/s800/ve-p33.png)
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Why is the cam pulley on the crankshaft? lmao
Apologies, 11 hour workday and 3 hour comute have reduced me to the point of lobotomy.
What have I started? People across the world yanking crank pulleys to do head gaskets?
Oh well, don't believe half of what you see on the web, and none of what you hear. ;)