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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Jetmugg on May 02, 2012, 07:28:06 am
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I've done the searches and read what I can about the different varieties of AAZ cylinder heads, with respect to valve sizes, spring types, and spring shims. I still don't have a clear picture of all the possibilities of valve, spring, retainers, and lifter combinations.
Right now, I have my AAZ head at the machine shop, getting a rebuild for a "hybrid" 1.6L TD block / 1.5 rotating assembly / 1.9 head setup. This engine will be used for a land-speed record attempt. It will not need to turn stratospheric RPM's. My goal is to run through the timing traps at slightly less than 5,000 rpms, but will probably need to wind it up a little higher before shifting each gear.
This will not be a "time bomb" type of engine setup. It needs to make pretty good power (over 120hp would be nice), but needs to be able to live for some extended full-throttle runs (the race course is 3 miles, flat out.). It will have plenty of turbo boost, air-to-water intercooler, a top notch injection pump from "The Man" in Canada, and a big oil cooler.
Anyway, the head as I recieved it was set up for 8mm valve stems, and used the single spring configuration, with steel seats under the springs.
Reading up on the various combinations, I'm trying to figure out a strong, reliable, affordable spring & valve combination. Here in the US, most shops are not familiar with the AAZ engines.
I have not yet seen a factory set of valves with 7mm stems for both intake and exhaust valves for this head. I'm not even sure that an AAZ head ever existed with 7mm valves for both intake and exhaust.
Can anyone guide me to information about whether there are any other factory VW engines that can share valves with the AAZ, or a source for 7mm replacement valves for the AAZ? I have some 7mm valve guides that came with the head, that have not yet been installed. Should I keep the "stock" 8mm valve configuration, or try to figure out a combination of parts that will let me use 7mm valve stems if they are available? Recommendations are welcome. My machine shop says that the 8mm valves that were with the head are OK to use, but if there are 7mm available, they should allow for better flow and lighter valvetrain.
I have similar questions regarding valve springs. I think I would feel better knowing that I was running dual springs on this engine, but don't know if it's worth the effort. I have "heard" that the springs may be interchangeable with 8V gasoline engine springs, but don't have a way to confirm that. The same goes for the hydraulic lifters - any recommendations for those?
I'm hoping this topic will spark a discussion of the performance options for building an AAZ head.
Thanks in advance.
Steve M.
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I've done the searches and read what I can about the different varieties of AAZ cylinder heads, with respect to valve sizes, spring types, and spring shims. I still don't have a clear picture of all the possibilities of valve, spring, retainers, and lifter combinations.
Right now, I have my AAZ head at the machine shop, getting a rebuild for a "hybrid" 1.6L TD block / 1.5 rotating assembly / 1.9 head setup. This engine will be used for a land-speed record attempt. It will not need to turn stratospheric RPM's. My goal is to run through the timing traps at slightly less than 5,000 rpms, but will probably need to wind it up a little higher before shifting each gear.
This will not be a "time bomb" type of engine setup. It needs to make pretty good power (over 120hp would be nice), but needs to be able to live for some extended full-throttle runs (the race course is 3 miles, flat out.). It will have plenty of turbo boost, air-to-water intercooler, a top notch injection pump from "The Man" in Canada, and a big oil cooler.
Anyway, the head as I recieved it was set up for 8mm valve stems, and used the single spring configuration, with steel seats under the springs.
Reading up on the various combinations, I'm trying to figure out a strong, reliable, affordable spring & valve combination. Here in the US, most shops are not familiar with the AAZ engines.
I have not yet seen a factory set of valves with 7mm stems for both intake and exhaust valves for this head. I'm not even sure that an AAZ head ever existed with 7mm valves for both intake and exhaust.
Can anyone guide me to information about whether there are any other factory VW engines that can share valves with the AAZ, or a source for 7mm replacement valves for the AAZ? I have some 7mm valve guides that came with the head, that have not yet been installed. Should I keep the "stock" 8mm valve configuration, or try to figure out a combination of parts that will let me use 7mm valve stems if they are available? Recommendations are welcome. My machine shop says that the 8mm valves that were with the head are OK to use, but if there are 7mm available, they should allow for better flow and lighter valvetrain.
I have similar questions regarding valve springs. I think I would feel better knowing that I was running dual springs on this engine, but don't know if it's worth the effort. I have "heard" that the springs may be interchangeable with 8V gasoline engine springs, but don't have a way to confirm that. The same goes for the hydraulic lifters - any recommendations for those?
I'm hoping this topic will spark a discussion of the performance options for building an AAZ head.
Thanks in advance.
Steve M.
why do you need the 1.5L bottom end if not for revs?
or is this for that stupid displacement limit?
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Displacement limit for the class.
Steve.
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IIRC all 8v hydro components should work with the AAZ head minus the cams from gassers. Check it but that is what I believe is accurate from discussion. I do not know if the dual spring will be needed. Your engine and its rev characteristics will be based on what Giles does with the pump. The same 8v single spring gas head will rev well beyond 6,000 rpm, so the head isn't the limiter. The pump will be, have Giles set it to what you need.
The TDI valves, guides, retainers, and seats could be used in your AAZ head. Then you find all the 7mm stuff you want.
I am having my 1.6 head built to the same specs at Air Cooled Engines Plus in Tiffin. If you want something and can't find it he will make it. I have stainless swirl polished valves being made now for it since no one is making them in production.
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I believe the tdi valves are a different height than the AAZ ones.
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My AAZ head used dual valve springs. I havent seen any with single personally.
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I have only seen one AAZ head (the one I have), which has the single springs and the lower seats. Apparently, there are at least 3 configurations with respect to the springs - single springs with lower seats, single springs without lower seats, and dual springs, which I assume use the lower seats.
There don't seem to be major problems with any of the setups, and I haven't been able to find the reasoning behind the changes. Right now, I think I'll put it back together with the same setup that it had originally (single springs with lower seats).
Steve.
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Just an FYI if its important. The dual springs in my head have lower seats also.
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I believe the tdi valves are a different height than the AAZ ones.
they are different length, 99% sure ive read that somewhere..
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Tdi valves are bit of a different length but they are the same diameters so there's not really a reason to worry about them anyway. The valve guides and retainers are the same on gassers so long as u get the 3 groove but it's not like ur gonna gain a bunch of hp there haha. I would just do a ported head with 7mm valve stems with a good turbo and pump you'll set a record for sure
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Tdi valves are bit of a different length but they are the same diameters so there's not really a reason to worry about them anyway. The valve guides and retainers are the same on gassers so long as u get the 3 groove but it's not like ur gonna gain a bunch of hp there haha. I would just do a ported head with 7mm valve stems with a good turbo and pump you'll set a record for sure
i still think the 1.9 head on the 1.5 rot/assy is going to be too much. (not enough compression to run efficiently)
i would build a 1.6 head also, just for incase you have to swap the head to get it to start good, and make decent power..
for what you are asking the engine to do, i would think that a ported 1.6 head would be BETTER, in terms of efficiently making power.
low compression is NOT good on these IDI engines..
there have been a couple 1.5/1.9 engines built, but none of them actually saw the light of day that i know of, due to starting/running issues..
i believe Sauerkraut built one, but ended up not going that route, because of (LACK OF) compression..
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i WANT this engine combo to work out in the worst of ways.. trust me.. but i just dont see it happening.
there are substantial issues that arise when using a 1.9 head on a 1.6, and they are going to be WORSE with LESS displacement..
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im optimistic, its certainly not a set up for a daily driver, but i think the only issue will be starting not not how it runs
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From the sounds of it, once it's fired up and warm, the low compression ratio should be fine. The things only going to be making power on boost, so at a certain point the cr won't make a huge difference to combustion. If it won't start at that low pressure, machine up some glowplug blanks and start it on ether. Either that, or pre-boil the coolant and get the engine to operating temperature before it fires up.
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If the TDI valves are a different length have the machinist cut some off and if nessesary cut new groves for the keepers. Or like I said have air cooled engines plus do the dirty work for you.
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If the TDI valves are a different length have the machinist cut some off and if nessesary cut new groves for the keepers. Or like I said have air cooled engines plus do the dirty work for you.
Yes but valve stem tops are sometimes treated in some way to resist wear. And I'd be wary about cutting new grooves in stems, only for worry of the present grooves causing some machining problems.
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Keep in mind that stock valve stems are designed to resist wear for 5000 to 10,000 hours of use, and as many, if not more heat cycles. He's talking about an engine that will break a record, then maybe drive to a few shows afterwards. I think I've missed the point though. What's wrong with the 8mm valve stems? They reduce flow a little and increase mass, but they are designed to work in the head, and they use similar designed valves in gas engines that rev well over 6000r/m freely.
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A couple of questions:
What do you think swirl polished valves are going to do for you in a diesel? There main purpose in a carbed gas engine is to shed fuel droplets back into the airstream. Not much of a problem in a diesel. They do look cool though.
Has anybody calculated the CR in a 1.5/AAZ head Frankenmotor? 1.6s will start reliably on 225 psi as long as the ambient temps are above 65*F. (Hardly at all at 55*F, though.) If the Frankenmotor has starting problems, the CR must be really low.
Are the precups in an AAZ the same size at a 1.6?
Why use hydraulic lifters in a race engine?
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and if weight is an issue, run titanium valve spring retainers.
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If the TDI valves are a different length have the machinist cut some off and if nessesary cut new groves for the keepers. Or like I said have air cooled engines plus do the dirty work for you.
Yes but valve stem tops are sometimes treated in some way to resist wear. And I'd be wary about cutting new grooves in stems, only for worry of the present grooves causing some machining problems.
If it was machined to stock spec, it can be remachined and retreated to stock specs. I looked it up and it is 1.85mm taller. You are going to put a new seat in and at that point all would need to be machined to fit properly. If the machinist couldn't make it work by any means then I wouldn't have him do the head. If the first option wouldn't work the second is have the machinist make 7mm valves out of stainless blanks as I am having mine done. Again, it is one thing to have a machinist that doesn't want to do it and another to have one that can't. If you want the extra flow of the 7mm vavle there maybe some work involved, but this is also why people don't set LSR everyday.
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Thanks for all the information and ideas. I'll try to describe my thought process and where I'm at with the engine side of the project.
I don't have particularly deep pockets, so I have to be careful where I spend my money. Wherever I spend money, it has to "count". That means that I don't want too much custom work being done if there are factory parts that will get the job done. For that reason, I don't want to get involved with shortening of valves, re-cutting keeper grooves, etc.
I like the idea of 7mm valves, but it doesn't look like there are any factory VW valves that would be a direct drop-in. For that reason, I am most likely going to run the stock 8mm valves, buy a fresh set of single springs, and a fresh set of lifters. I am going to keep it hydraulic for the sake of simplicity. I read up on someone else (Saurkraut maybe?) converting a hydraulic head to mechanical, but I don't think I want to get into that whole affair.
The head has already had some light porting done to clean up the bowls. I'm not planning to do any more porting. It's going to get a valve job, new guides and seals, and the aforementioned new springs and lifters.
I realize that the 1.5/1.9 combo is unconventional. I believe it will be a good setup for an LSR attempt. The head should flow better than any of the factory 1.5 or 1.6 heads (bigger valves). The pre-chambers are larger on the 1.9, and should yield a static CR of somewhere in the 17.5:1 range. Starting may be a challenge, but I have to believe that it will be capable of starting for my needs. The number of "wacky" engine combos used in LSR racing is mind-boggling. The shop that is doing my head work recently cut a small-block Chevy in half to make a V-4, which is running Subaru cylinder heads with belt-driven overhead cams for a different class at Bonneville. That is just one example of the type of creative engine combos that are used.
This will be a race-only engine. While I don't have the money to rebuild a 1.6 head at this time, I do have a 1.6 head that could be pressed into service if the 1.9 just won't work. I'm pretty optimistic that the 1.9 will work, though, and will get some dyno time before the LSR attempt is made.
The lack of static CR will be made up for with plenty of boost. Giles will be doing the pump work, I have total confidence in his abilities. It will have a water-to-air intercooler, running chilled water from an insulated tank. A big thermostatically controlled oil cooler is also part of the plan.
The current record in this class is 106 mph over a flying mile at Bonneville. While this might not sound like a big mountain to climb, the current and past record holders in this class are big names in the LSR world. The #2111 VW Caddy that formerly held the record will be on the verge of 200 mph this year, with a turbo VR6 engine and a major-league effort. The current recordholder also holds records in several Diesel Streamliner and other classes. These guys are serious heavy-hitters. Everyone assures me that it's not as easy as it looks. There are a ton of details to consider throughout the entire vehicle. Everything has to work well together in order to put your name in the record books.
There are several concurrent paths going on with this vehicle, in addition to the engine work. The roll cage, safety equipment, body work, and suspension/steering/stopping are all subject to the same level of consideration and scrutiny.
I really appreciate the input from this forum, especially with respect to the engine configuration. I have learned a lot already, and will continue to learn as much as possible. Not a day goes by that I don't think about some of the details of this project, with a goal of running at Speed Week 2013.
Steve.
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For anyone who may be interested, this is pretty much what the truck will look like when it's "done". This image has been photoshopped, but is the actual vehicle currently in my garage (in about a million pieces).
(http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Jetmugg/Dodge%20Rampage/Completerendering.jpg)
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later aaz's came with 7mm valve stems, you may already have them.
all newer vw 8v's had 7mm stems, such as the aba.
you can get a more tapered valve guide also which should help flow in the bowl area u can supposedly get them in a better material that transfers heat better too.
also you can use the later 2.0 lifters which are supposedly lighter... since u are getting new ones, might as well get the slight upgrade
just a little fyi
also if i were getting a giles pump i know i would be getting atleast a 10 or 11 mm pump had.
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A couple of questions:
What do you think swirl polished valves are going to do for you in a diesel? There main purpose in a carbed gas engine is to shed fuel droplets back into the airstream. Not much of a problem in a diesel. They do look cool though.
i dont see a gain when there is no fuel, or anything present in your intake air
Has anybody calculated the CR in a 1.5/AAZ head Frankenmotor? 1.6s will start reliably on 225 psi as long as the ambient temps are above 65*F. (Hardly at all at 55*F, though.) If the Frankenmotor has starting problems, the CR must be really low.
17:1 iirc, so yes, very VERY LOW.. glow plugs may be deleted to bring some compression back. just machine some glow plug blanks, with a bigger displacement than the stock plugs.. the 1.6/1.9 has starting issues, so the 1.5/1.9 is REALLY gonna have some issues..
Are the precups in an AAZ the same size at a 1.6?
NOT EVEN.. the 1.6 uses 12cc cups, and i think the AAZ uses 17 or 18cc
Why use hydraulic lifters in a race engine?
why not? 6000RPMs is the physical limitation of the pump, the valves sure as hell wont be floating at that low of an RPM.. the gain from solid lifters would not be worth using them, in my opinion.. this is not a TYPICAL race engine..
ive driven cars with both types of heads, and i prefer the hydro heads, simply for lack of maintenance! the solid lifter clackity-clack heads DO sound cool, but i HATE adjusting valves, and these lifters are harder to adjust than any set ive ever laid hands on before..
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ive driven cars with both types of heads, and i prefer the hydro heads, simply for lack of maintenance! the solid lifter clackity-clack heads DO sound cool, but i HATE adjusting valves, and these lifters are harder to adjust than any set ive ever laid hands on before..[/b]
hate to jack, but man I wish I would quit getting stuck with mechanical heads, if you cant get them adjusted right, its hard to tell if the noise is from running issues or from the valves
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LOVE mech heads myself. If you have some feelers and enough shims they are awesome. I go to my pal in Mansfield where he has about 300 different shims and go to town. They are quieter heads in general and out of all the vw's I have owned the mech heads have more off idle snap...useless to this LSR attempt, but great in everyday driving. I think it is the main reason why I experienced little lag with a huge FMIC.
Jet...I have 0 knowledge of the pickup you are using, but what is available for the suspension. I think the engine will be fine for plenty of power, but hooking it all up is key. I would suspect you would want some super soft shocks up front so you would have plenty of hook up, but I could be off. I don't think custom or stiff springs would gain you anything, soft loose old whatever springs maybe the best for the soft ground you will encounter. Also to go along with that, tires for it would be of utmost importance and where if you don't have the $$$ that would be the first area I would spend it in is the suspension and tires.
Question=does the vehicle have to have brakes?
I only recomended the other valves as my guy in Tiffin, Ohio is less than 10.00 per valve. The swirl polishing included which helps create the turbulance he wants in the air so it mixes better in the prechamber, so 80.00 or less for valves, you won't be upset. If you had Mech valves I would give you 3/4 of my old set since I am going bigger on my new heads, but you are hydro...sorry. I have another friend in mind for these now. If I wasn't deep into my machining I would front the 80 or so to get you good valves, but I am into it and a cheap MF....I will help when I can.
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soon me and a friend will see how mk1 coil overs fit on his charger, i believe the rampage is the same set up right?
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Same as a Charger, yes. The "hot" setup is using Neon suspension parts. Coilovers, air ride, SRT4 parts, will all fit. A lot of other Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth stuff fits, too.
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LOVE mech heads myself. If you have some feelers and enough shims they are awesome. I go to my pal in Mansfield where he has about 300 different shims and go to town. They are quieter heads in general and out of all the vw's I have owned the mech heads have more off idle snap...useless to this LSR attempt, but great in everyday driving. I think it is the main reason why I experienced little lag with a huge FMIC.
Jet...I have 0 knowledge of the pickup you are using, but what is available for the suspension. I think the engine will be fine for plenty of power, but hooking it all up is key. I would suspect you would want some super soft shocks up front so you would have plenty of hook up, but I could be off. I don't think custom or stiff springs would gain you anything, soft loose old whatever springs maybe the best for the soft ground you will encounter. Also to go along with that, tires for it would be of utmost importance and where if you don't have the $$$ that would be the first area I would spend it in is the suspension and tires.
Question=does the vehicle have to have brakes?
I only recomended the other valves as my guy in Tiffin, Ohio is less than 10.00 per valve. The swirl polishing included which helps create the turbulance he wants in the air so it mixes better in the prechamber, so 80.00 or less for valves, you won't be upset. If you had Mech valves I would give you 3/4 of my old set since I am going bigger on my new heads, but you are hydro...sorry. I have another friend in mind for these now. If I wasn't deep into my machining I would front the 80 or so to get you good valves, but I am into it and a cheap MF....I will help when I can.
my engine LAGS like a MOFO with my big intercooler hooked up.. well, not BAD LAG, but it lags alot more than with the smapp cooler, or no intercooler at all..
and thats way cool you can use neon parts in the suspension..
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I just finished talking to TechTonics Tuning. They are very knowledgeable about all the possible combinations of parts for gassers and diesels. They are double-checking TDI valve dimensions with the goal of putting together a complete package of valves, guides, seats, retainers, and springs for this head. These guys really know their stuff.
Steve
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I just finished talking to TechTonics Tuning. They are very knowledgeable about all the possible combinations of parts for gassers and diesels. They are double-checking TDI valve dimensions with the goal of putting together a complete package of valves, guides, seats, retainers, and springs for this head. These guys really know their stuff.
Steve
sorry, but i dont think techtonics knows half the info that we know..
they are hot rod gasser guys..
why do you think you need bigger valves?
the AAZ valves havent even proven to be a restriction yet..
why not build something, run it, then decide you need this, that, and the other crap..
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Who said anything about bigger valves?
The TechTonics guys know which parts work with which other parts. (springs, shims, retainers, valves, etc). They have made a very successful business in the VW world, and have provided parts and knowledge for many current LSR record holders.
Following this thread, there were many good suggestions, but no one was able to say definitively what combination of 7mm valves, springs, seats, retainers, etc. would work without having a machine shop customize some of the parts. It appears that TechTonics is going to be able to provide a complete valvetrain "kit" to do exactly that.
The reason I want to do show up and run as strong as I can afford to run is that the Bonneville Salt Flats are not exactly right around the corner from me. The Salt Flats are over 1,000 miles away. They have a couple of meets per year if the weather cooperates. This is not like bracket racing at your local dragstrip.
When the time comes to run, I need to be ready to run as hard and fast as I can afford to run. There is no "I'll see how it does then come back next week/month". I'm gathering as much knowledge as I can to make the best decisions I know, with the goal of setting a Land Speed Record in 2013.
Steve.
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1Y engines use 8mm stems i think...
and for a goal of 120hp i dont think why all the trouble...
my 1.6 had almost that at the wheels with just the basic tunes...
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The Great White Dyno will not lie. It will tell me if I have put enough power to the surface to overcome the aerodynamic drag. When the power output is at it's max, and the aero drag is at it's max, the vehicle won't go any faster. That's when I'll know if I have built a good enough vehicle and a strong enough drivetrain.
There are not many people on the planet who currently hold land speed records with diesel engines. As far as I can tell, the only GTD user who has played a role with a current recordholder is Under PSI. The team he mentioned holds multiple LSR records with a variety of gas and diesel VW powerplants.
If I can make more HP than needed to set the record from a 1.5L diesel, put it all to the ground, and run 3 miles with my foot held to the floor, I will be extremely happy.
I will be disappointed if I can't hit the mark, but I will know that I have given myself every opportunity I could afford.
What I don't want to happen is to invest a lot of time and money, only to come up a little bit short of a record, knowing that I didn't do everything that I could have to go just a little bit faster.
I don't have any illusions that this will be easy. Every detail needs consideration. I intend to build the best chassis and cage that I can build. I intend to take every legal aerodynamic advantage that I can take. I intend to have the best safety equipment that I can buy, beg, or borrow. I intend to build the best drivetrain that I can afford to build.
Steve.
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If you are going to be pedal to the floor for 3 miles I would also recommend an oil cooler (air to oil) and ditching the oem oil "warmer" :P.
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A nice big oil cooler is definitely part of the recipe, along with a water-to-air intercooler and a big tank full of icewater.
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A nice big oil cooler is definitely part of the recipe, along with a water-to-air intercooler and a big tank full of icewater.
that ice water is going to be luke warm before the end of the first mile, and probably about boiling by the time the run is over..
why not use a light, simple, air to air intercooler?
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Icewater to air setups are pretty common at Bonneville, including for use on "Long Course" vehicles (5 measured miles and a 2 mile shutdown area) with engines making 20X the horsepower that I will be able to muster.
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7mm, 36mm, 95.5mm, AAZ intake valve: 028109601C
7mm, 31mm, 95.5mm, AAZ exhaust valve: 028109611E
And all the other parts numbers you need are in the the part catalog (ETKA) :)
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Thank You, Alcaid. I will download the EKTA information when I am at my home office this evening.
Steve.
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Icewater to air setups are pretty common at Bonneville, including for use on "Long Course" vehicles (5 measured miles and a 2 mile shutdown area) with engines making 20X the horsepower that I will be able to muster.
my biggest issue, is with the ADDED WEIGHT associated with the 30 gallons of water, and all the pumps/lines/heat exchangers
a BIG air to air, MIGHT weigh in @ ~20lbs..
a TINY air to water, MIGHT weigh in at 30-40 lbs.. and if you use lots of water/ice, like will be required for a long run, its gonna get HEAVY..
but then again, arent you supposed to weigh a certain amount? maybe the added weight wouldnt be a bad thing at all, maybe you could use the weight to better balance the vehicle..
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A lot of people add serious weight to LSR cars (like a thousand pounds of lead in the frame rails) for stability and traction. There is generally no penalty for added weight.
Frictional force (traction) = Normal Force (weight) x Coefficient of Friction (tire on salt surface). If you can't increase the coefficient of friction, increase the Normal Force (weight).
This is not a drag race. It's a top speed contest over 3 miles. The vehicle will come to equilibrium between the applied HP and the aero resistance, probably within the first mile, but definitely before the end of the 2nd mile. The rest of the time, it's just HP against drag.
High HP and low drag (rolling and aero) wins the day.
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TechTonics has all the goodies, and my order has been placed. 7mm valves, guides, seals, lightweight coated lifters, and the entire spring kit are on their way.
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woot woot
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It's only money.
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Side note - I just purchased a standard bore 1.6L Turbo hydraulic block.
I'll be taking a bunch of parts to the machine shop next week.
Steve.
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Side note - I just purchased a standard bore 1.6L Turbo hydraulic block.
I'll be taking a bunch of parts to the machine shop next week.
Steve.
find yourself a GOOD 1.6D head, and prep it all up, for IN CASE the AAZ head doesnt work good on the 1.5 bottom end.. (not enough compression to run efficiently)
i would have a PLAN B ready, because this is an engine that has never really been built and used enough to determine if its a viable combo..
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If the AAZ head won't play nice on the 1.5 displacement bottom end, I'll probably have to sell the AAZ in order to fund another head. Until that time, I'm pushing forward on the premise that I'll be able to make the power I'll need with the planned combo.
I probably won't know for sure until early next year, when the engine will be installed in the vehicle and run on a chassis dyno.
Steve.
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what is your plan for a turbo... u can pick something real sweet spool up time is not much of a problem
awesome build tho... all the people i know who say "it's just money" have the sweetest cars haha.
Also we haven't tried fitting anything up yet, but all the bolt measurements are very close for rabbit suspension on a dodge, i'll let you know how that works out, we should soon be trying it. I was just waiting to receive a turbo in the mail so i could show him it and we could try my suspension on his charger all in one night.
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I have been talking to a guy who runs a business called "The Turbo Center" here in St Louis. He's been around for years, and has worked on an LSR car or two. He agrees that finding the right turbo setup won't be a major deal, especially since the question of turbo lag is not an issue. We haven't selected a turbo yet, but the idea is to find one that can hit the boost numbers that I'll need, while still being "easy" on the turbo.
He has also suggested not putting too much effort about finding a factory turbo manifold. Instead, I will find whatever exhaust manifold matches the AAZ ports best, and he will fab the turbo flange onto it.
Regarding the Rabbit/Charger setup, How will the steering arms play out? My memory tells me that on the Rabbits, the tie rods connect to an arm on the strut, which is quite a bit farther "up" than the Dodge setup, which is down by the lower ball joints. Of course, my memory isn't always very sharp.
I do know for a fact that an entire 2nd Gen Neon setup will bolt directly onto an L-Body dodge, from the balljoints up to the strut mount. An extra hole will have to be drilled into the upper strut mount location, but it's 100% bolt on.
Steve.
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ok make sure u post what they come up with for a turbo. hillfolk years ago used a dual down pipe rabbit manifold and flipped it over and made an adaptor for the t3 flange, i think that'd be a pretty good setup, or watch for a used tubular manifold maybe. but i think the kinetic or other aftermarket 8v manifold will probably be fine... i can't remember the company that makes it
well what we're trying to do is bolt the dodge knuckle to the vw strut, the bolt holes seem to be the correct distance apart... so the this makes everything alot simpler. the only thing that could really be an issue is the thickness of the knuckle which can easily be spaced or machined down. he actually has a set of later daytona knuckles that were machined down to work with the older strut so he can run the bigger brakes.
i had manetioned the neon stuff to him, he said the rear suspension is different on the dodge because it uses and actual strut? seemed like he said something else was different too, that or the vw stuff is just cheaper haha, we'll see since i got a turbo yesterday so sometime next week i'll be meeting up with him. its a turbonetics a t3/t4 to4e 50 trim with the newer f1 57 wheel, i got it for a song so i just bought it but i don't know how well it would work on anything i have haha. how ever i do believe it is the same turbo dave at passenger performance used on his 195whp build
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Sounds like your Dodge/VW project is on the right path. You are right about the thickness of the knuckles at the mounting point for the struts... The factory L body knuckle is thinner than the Daytona or any other Chrysler stuff. One of the preferred knuckle setups is actually a 91 and up Spirit, or other K-car derivative. They use a bolt-in wheel bearing carrier, and also work like a dropped spindle compared to the Daytona or Charger geometry. There is more distance between the lower balljoint mounting position and the centerline of the axle shaft. These spindles can also handle the big brakes.
Your friend is right about the rear suspension as well. I will only be using the spindle, backing plate, and rear brakes from the Neon. The stub-axle bolt pattern is the same as on a Charger.
Also interesting about the turbo configuration. I'm not up to speed on all the various trim designations for the turbos, and what is possible in terms of combinations of parts. I'll learn as much as possible, in the hopes that I can have an educated conversation with John from The Turbo Center.
Good luck with the Rabbit-Charger project, and post any pics if possible.
Steve.
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ok make sure u post what they come up with for a turbo. hillfolk years ago used a dual down pipe rabbit manifold and flipped it over and made an adaptor for the t3 flange, i think that'd be a pretty good setup, or watch for a used tubular manifold maybe. but i think the kinetic or other aftermarket 8v manifold will probably be fine... i can't remember the company that makes it
well what we're trying to do is bolt the dodge knuckle to the vw strut, the bolt holes seem to be the correct distance apart... so the this makes everything alot simpler. the only thing that could really be an issue is the thickness of the knuckle which can easily be spaced or machined down. he actually has a set of later daytona knuckles that were machined down to work with the older strut so he can run the bigger brakes.
i had manetioned the neon stuff to him, he said the rear suspension is different on the dodge because it uses and actual strut? seemed like he said something else was different too, that or the vw stuff is just cheaper haha, we'll see since i got a turbo yesterday so sometime next week i'll be meeting up with him. its a turbonetics a t3/t4 to4e 50 trim with the newer f1 57 wheel, i got it for a song so i just bought it but i don't know how well it would work on anything i have haha. how ever i do believe it is the same turbo dave at passenger performance used on his 195whp build
do you have any idea how much $$ is involved in buying materials to build your own tubular mani?
it can be done for VERY CHEAP.. the flanges are the most expensive part, if you have to buy them.. if you can cut the flanges yourself, then the price goes WAY DOWN..
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The valvetrain goodies arrived on Friday. The block arrived today. I will drop off the valvetrain stuff at the machine shop later this week, and maybe the block, too.
I still need to figure out the best course of action for notching the 1.5 pistons for oil squirter clearance. I'd like to come up with a fixture to hold the pistons at the correct "clock" position in a Bridgeport, then mill the notches. I will then smooth out the sharply milled corners by hand.
As far as the exhaust goes, I need to finish up a bunch of chassis work, then will install a mock-up engine in the vehicle, to see where it makes the most sense to route the exhaust, mount the turbo, and dump it out. The exhaust does not necessarily need to go out the bottom. The rules allow for dumping the exhaust out through a fender. I have quite a bit of work to do in that department, figuring out the location for all the underhood components and plumbing.
Steve.
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1/2 price weekend at Pick-N-Pull junkyards over Memorial Day weekend. I'm hoping to score some goodies for the suspension, and maybe a shifter setup, pedal cluster, and exhaust manifold.
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1/2 price weekend at Pick-N-Pull junkyards over Memorial Day weekend. I'm hoping to score some goodies for the suspension, and maybe a shifter setup, pedal cluster, and exhaust manifold.
exhaust mani for a TD?!
in a junk yard?!?!
good luck dude. ive never even seen a TD in a junk yard..
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A note on starting. If the CR is too low to start when cold you could add in a grid heater from a dodge cummins. I did that to my 1.6/1.9 combo and it works great. even starts when the temps were around 0. without the grid heater i could not get it to stay running with just the glow plugs. heck even now with the temps around 50 and 60 i still use the grid heat. it helps it out that much better. Also I got a feeling my CR is a little low due to all my blowby out the valve cover.
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That's a good tip on the Cummins grid heater if it becomes necessary. I will do a little research on the Cummins setup. If this thing will start at 70F and above, I should be OK.
This is a race-only engine and vehicle, so I won't be worried about starting on cold mornings for a daily commute or anything like that.
As far as an exhaust manifold in a junkyard, I didn't say anything about a TD manifold. ;D
I agree that it would be extremely rare to find a TD in a junkyard, but you can surely bet that if you don't go there looking, you will never find one.
My junkyard shopping list consists mainly of Chrysler suspension goodies, which will not be a challenge to find. Any VW stuff that I come across will be a bonus.
Steve.
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well we finally go together and tried it. vw rabbit suspension is nearly a bolt on for the charger
strut bearings are basically the same(even tho they'd be easy to swap around if they weren't) but this means any mk1 vw strut bearing option is also an option for the old turbo dodge guys
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/photo4-1.jpg)
the knuckle mount bolts are the same size, and also have the same center to center distance, the only difference is that the width of the dodge knuckle is slightly wider, but that is a simple just drop it off at the machine shop and get something like 40-80 thousandths taken off. Which also makes me curious about the width of a mk2 knuckle, does anyone know? maybe the dodge knuckle will fit directly into a mk2 strut
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/photo3-1.jpg)
rears are a direct fit, brandon said when he had bought shocks before that the box had a rabbit listed as a car the shocks would fit
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/photo2-1.jpg)
and here are the fronts side by side
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/photo1-2.jpg)
freaking wild. all it takes is having the knuckles milled and the vw stuff will work. :o :o :o
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Excellent news there. Very cool that the VW suspension parts are a near-bolt-on for the Charger. It looks like the Rabbit front end setup will result in a significant drop with the coil-overs shown in the photo. Is that part of the plan? It also looks like the struts and springs that were removed were in pretty good shape to begin with.
I'll definitely be interested to see how the car sits when it's back on the ground.
One of the things that I've been daydreaming about is the possibility of air ride struts on the front to give the ability to "air up" the front for loading, unloading, and moving the car around, then being able to "slam it" for minimum ground clearance at race time. Air ride VW struts are relatively easy to come by.
I don't have many good photos, but I managed to score a set of Plymouth Acclaim knuckles (essentially work as dropped spindles on a Charger/Rampage/etc) brakes and drive axles, a complete set of Neon struts, springs, and upper mounts for the front end. The Acclaim is also a 5-lug on 100mm bolt pattern, which gives a good selection of 15" wheels.
For the rear, I grabbed the stub axles, backing plates, drums, and everything that goes with them from a Chrysler LeBaron. It's a direct bolt-on setup to replace the factory Rampage stuff, and will give the matching 5-lug pattern as the front end.
My cylinder head is still at the machine shop, along with all the valvetrain goodies. I'm told it will be ready to pick up next week.
Steve.
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What kind of coil-over setup is that? (i.e. brand name, part# if available)???
Steve.
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we never actually installed them since they're mine for my vw but yes they are much shorter in the front, i believe they are about the same amount shorter in comparison to the mk1 struts as well. its also a little misleading since the dodge has the strut bearing on it and they're not lined up in the picture. but if the length is not quite right, mk2 struts are longer and will work as well but where the knuckle bolts on is a bit wider so u may need to use a spacer
the coil overs are weitec xs i believe, they're for a mk1 vw so 1975-1984 rabbit or jetta. these ones have rebound adjustment as well. the setup we had it sitting next to is brand new as far as i could tell, he hasn't driven the car in quite a few years haha.
check out old school vws they have lots of strut bearing options and air ride options as well.
also we were talking and it sounds like the rear stub axles might almost be swappable too haha, we'd have to measure the bolt spacing but they are both trapezoidal.
its all very interesting tho, pretty big game changer for all the turbo dodge guys.
Excellent news there. Very cool that the VW suspension parts are a near-bolt-on for the Charger. It looks like the Rabbit front end setup will result in a significant drop with the coil-overs shown in the photo. Is that part of the plan? It also looks like the struts and springs that were removed were in pretty good shape to begin with.
I'll definitely be interested to see how the car sits when it's back on the ground.
One of the things that I've been daydreaming about is the possibility of air ride struts on the front to give the ability to "air up" the front for loading, unloading, and moving the car around, then being able to "slam it" for minimum ground clearance at race time. Air ride VW struts are relatively easy to come by.
I don't have many good photos, but I managed to score a set of Plymouth Acclaim knuckles (essentially work as dropped spindles on a Charger/Rampage/etc) brakes and drive axles, a complete set of Neon struts, springs, and upper mounts for the front end. The Acclaim is also a 5-lug on 100mm bolt pattern, which gives a good selection of 15" wheels.
For the rear, I grabbed the stub axles, backing plates, drums, and everything that goes with them from a Chrysler LeBaron. It's a direct bolt-on setup to replace the factory Rampage stuff, and will give the matching 5-lug pattern as the front end.
My cylinder head is still at the machine shop, along with all the valvetrain goodies. I'm told it will be ready to pick up next week.
Steve.
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i imagine you will want to go with mk2 struts.. the mk1 struts have VERY LIMITED travel.
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Yeah but if ur going low the shorter strut will give you more travel before it bottoms out
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Yeah but if ur going low the shorter strut will give you more travel before it bottoms out
good point. but it looks like the rabbit strut assemblies are ~6" shorter..
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we never actually installed them since they're mine for my vw but yes they are much shorter in the front, i believe they are about the same amount shorter in comparison to the mk1 struts as well. its also a little misleading since the dodge has the strut bearing on it and they're not lined up in the picture. but if the length is not quite right, mk2 struts are longer and will work as well but where the knuckle bolts on is a bit wider so u may need to use a spacer