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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Rising on April 17, 2012, 09:23:02 am
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Okay so I finally got my rabbit on the road, she's fully together in one piece, passed the state safety inspection and was running great. I ordered the parts for the timing belt replacement and was having a shop do it all this weekend. But last night my wife and I wanted to go out to a movie and I decided it would be fun to run the rabbit up to the movie theater (about 20 mins away) to commemorate her new inspection sticker.
Well after the movie (got out at midnight) I heard a funny noise coming from the engine bay on the way home. so i pulled over immediately and tried to listen and I couldn't really tell where it was coming from but it sounded like the accessory belt was making some extra noise.
I got back in the car and started to pull forward a few feet and the noise stopped suddenly. So i got back out to check and I no longer had an accessory belt. So i jumped in and shut the car down immediately.
I let the car sit for about 15 minutes and then decided to try and get it off the highway (bad decision number 1). so i drove it very easily at about 45-50 mph for about 1.5 miles up to the next exit watching the temp gauge slowly rise (the car was had only been on for maybe 5 minutes total since leaving the movie theater and only about 2 minutes with the belt snapped.) I called my parents and asked if there was any place that might have a belt at this time at night and when we couldn't find any place my dad became convinced we could jury rig something up enough to limp it home (mistake 2).
We tried a couple things and finally got a bungee cord cut to length running the alternator and water pump surprisingly well. So we pulled out and started driving home. After about 5 minutes of driving i noticed the temperature gauge starting to rise to around 3/4's up the gauge and we pulled over again to quickly check what was going on.
The "belt" had come off of the engine and there was some oil over on the far right side of the engine and transmission. Not a ton. But enough to worry me. So at that point i abandoned our makeshift engineering and decided to have it towed home.
But my question is. Could I have just blown my head gasket and or cracked the block or something? I never let the temperature get high at all and the car wasn't driven for more than maybe 3-4 miles. And if not what else could cause oil to be dripping up there? Basically: How bad did i screw my car up over a stupid belt that was going to be changed in a few days anyway :(
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put a belt on and see what happns.... thats my 1st thing to do always in cases like that...
oil... 1st real trip.... id thing the vc gasket/breathr hose is seepnig oil... or the oil pressure switch failed...
next... NEVER try to rig a belt... all it takes is a small piece of te OLD belt to get sucked into the timming belt to ruin your day... it happens way easy by the way... a rigged set up is asking for issues... so before new belt pull crank puly to make sure no belt got sucked in... tends to wrap its self up in there...
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put a belt on and see what happns.... thats my 1st thing to do always in cases like that...
oil... 1st real trip.... id thing the vc gasket/breathr hose is seepnig oil... or the oil pressure switch failed...
next... NEVER try to rig a belt... all it takes is a small piece of te OLD belt to get sucked into the timming belt to ruin your day... it happens way easy by the way... a rigged set up is asking for issues... so before new belt pull crank puly to make sure no belt got sucked in... tends to wrap its self up in there...
Yeah I think I learned my lesson for sure. Even if nothing is screwed up it still scared me pretty bad. Just do it right the first time :-\ why do I keep having to tell myself that.
How hard is it to pull the crank pulley?
I was going to pay to have someone do the timing belt this weekend but if I do that and then the headgasket is bad ill have to pull it all anyway. Is it worth 200 bucks to have someone do the timing belt if I might have to pull the whole head soon?
How bad is changing the timing belt anyway?
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You can do the timing belt/head gasket your self. But make sure you take your time and be really careful following the directions to a T. For $200 you could buy the tools and parts to complete both jobs.... maybe a little more...
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Okay I was searching for the tools on here, and i found this thread http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=15221.0 and a couple others. But I didn't want to thread resurrect a thread from 2008. But all the links to the kits people mentioned on those are dead. Does anyone know where to get some timing belt tools on the cheap?
I heard you could buy some things like a socket and a spanner wrench and use them to build a cheap tool kit. Is this true?
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I don't think you did any damage.
Check out emiata.com for the timing tools. Do not be wowed by his prices for much of anything else because it is generally fairly shoddy knock-offs. Do a search here for "Prothe" for opinions of his stuff. The timing tools will get you by, though
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from what Ive heard, the stanley 3" hinge, the craftsman 1/4" drive 11mm deep socket, and then the fancy dial indicator and youre good to go.
DONT SKIMP ON THE STANLEY HINGE THOUGH, if it doesnt fit TIGHT do more searching, use shims, whatever it takes to make it PERFECT. I just picked up a core engine that wouldnt fire back up after an IP swap. I think they did EVERYTHING RIGHT except... resetting the cam sprocket timing. I think that a tighter or looser belt changed just enough to smack three valves
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Our temperature guages read from 70C (Coldest reading) to 110C (hottest reading). So you say it was at 3/4, that means it was only at like 100C which isn't extremely high when the highest thermostat is 92C.
I doubt you did anything to the head gasket.. get a belt, fire it up see what happens. Wash the engine down so you can see exactly where the oil is leaking from.
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THE ONLY thing I would like to comment on temps IS, if the water wasnt being PUMPED, other areas of the head may have reached highers temps then the gauge would show, as it wasnt pumping the hotter water over the sender
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oooooh. I totally forgot about the belt not spinning..
The car in question is a rabbit, so that means it has the single wire brass temp sender in the side of the head. It should be just as hot there as any other part of the cylinder head without flowing coolant.. so I would still be fairly certain the gauge was failry close to accurate.
If it were an mk2 however with the plastic gauge in the neck.. it can give false readings easily. If no water present the gauge will not tell you because the sender will cool off. At least the old style senders could tell you the head was heating up as well as the coolant passing through it (or not passing through it lol).
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Also, take a damned good look (inspect for play) at the water pump bearings. There may be a very good reason the belt is gone.
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Okay I checked everything out and it seemed alright so I went ahead and threw a new belt on it. I've driven it about 70 miles or so since then and it hasn't been an issue. The water temps are still a little high though. Where do you guys usually see your water temps at cruising around 55?
I think i might have found my oil leak in the head gasket. I'll try to get a picture later. But if it isn't too terrible I may try to drive it for another week or so until i can figure out everything i need to do the head gasket and timing belt all in one shot. I really need a good indication of what all is involved in removing the head and changing the gasket. I might do head studs while i'm at it since i am planning on boosting.
Anyone have any links to good write ups for the headgaskets? Should i use an upgraded gasket? ie 1.9 metal gaskets or something? Or just a stock gasket? And if it is leaking from the headgasket is it possible it just isn't torqued correctly and i could tighten the head bolts down a bit?
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Was the motor freshly rebuilt? If not then i doubt the torque of the bolts is the problem.. I mean you could try and give them an extra little bit. There is no need for the 1.9 gasket, it is for power builds and is hard to get to seal.. (ie. you will likely have the same problem). Head studs are also really only a worth while investment if you plan to run over 20psi and plan to take the head off more than three times. And unless you are running a different turbo then what was available stock, you don't want to be running over 20psi either as you will kill the turbo.
Is the oil leak on the front of the block right beneath the water neck? Directly in between cylinders 3 and 4? It is a common spot to leak for some reason, there is an oil drain right there.. however it is not pressurized so i do not see why it leaks.
If the water gauge is not pegged or close to the top but is somewhere at least near the middle, then it is likely it is only a few degrees above normal operating temperature. Getting a mechanical gauge or an infrared thermometer would really help you out here.. as 30 year old electric gauges cannot be trusted at all.
Also if you are at all mechanically inclined a head gasket on these is extremely straight forward. If it is intimidating all you have to remember is, no matter the job it is all just nuts and bolts. Likely 13mm too ;). It is the procedure that is the trickiest part.
NOW, there are several ways you c an go about this. You can fully remove the head, which you will need to disconnect the exhaust for. Or you can go el-cheapo-taco and only lift the head enough to slide a new gasket in (which admittedly I have done twice before..) and enough room to fit your hand in with a sheet of sand paper to scuff up the mating surface of any left over crap that may be there. If you've got compressed air it would be really handy to spray out the cylinders when you are done. Other than that, anything connecting the engine bay to the head of the engine needs to be removed. Such as;
-Intake tube
-valve cover and gasket, as well as oil breather hose.
-drain the coolant, bottom rad hose off the water pump with 2 10mm bolts, remove thermostat and flush it. Also test the thermo while it is out.
-drain the oil (always a good idea after an overheat as you have likely broken it down and it will not lubricate as good)
-the two coolant hoses, front and side of the head.
-four injector lines, 17mm.
-timing belt and cam sprocket, 15mm on the tensioner and 19mm on the cam sprocket.
-the two small bolts holding the metal timing belt backing plate to the head (year dependent), 10mm.
-assorted wiring for oil pressure sensor and temperature sensor.
-10 head bolts, following the sequence for tightening in reverse with increments on each until finger loose. 12mm triple square.
You've almost got the head off, time to lift it. The exhaust either needs to be removed for complete removal of the head.. or the head will need to be lifted with an engine hoist to be supported mid air whilst you work.
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Head studs are also really only a worth while investment if you plan to run over 20psi and plan to take the head off more than three times. And unless you are running a different turbo then what was available stock, you don't want to be running over 20psi either as you will kill the turbo.
Well for starters I am going tonight to pick up a vnt15 and a gasser intake manifold. So I won't be running a stock turbo, i'll be running a vnt with the vanes fully open for now. So i'm guessing around 15 psi? But I'm sure eventually I'll want to turn that up a bit. My goal is around 100hp which i think is possible with around 20psi and a modified pump. but i'm not sure really. So that's why i was considering head studs.
Is the oil leak on the front of the block right beneath the water neck? Directly in between cylinders 3 and 4? It is a common spot to leak for some reason, there is an oil drain right there.. however it is not pressurized so i do not see why it leaks.
Yeah that's where i am seeing the leak. :( is it that critical that i replace the headgasket right now? Will that cause more issues eventually? Or will it just leak some oil?
Reason i'm asking is it would probably be easier to do the headgasket, timing belt, and turbo swap all at the same time. But I also don't know how long it's going to take to collect all of the other parts i'm going to need for my swap...
NOW, there are several ways you c an go about this. You can fully remove the head, which you will need to disconnect the exhaust for. Or you can go el-cheapo-taco and only lift the head enough to slide a new gasket in (which admittedly I have done twice before..) and enough room to fit your hand in with a sheet of sand paper to scuff up the mating surface of any left over crap that may be there.
This is really a great help to get an idea of what i'm getting myself into. I'm fairly mechanically inclined (I pulled and replaced my subaru's awd transmission) so i don't think that this will be that bad. I've just always been afraid of timing and that has prevented me from tearing down my engines in the past. But it's probably time to just suck it up and do it ;) I'll probably just take the whole head off. A. Because i don't have an engine hoist and B. because It'll give me a chance to do a quick mock up of the turbo setup and start figuring out what i need to do to get it in, and where i need to send this downpipe.
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I have for sure heard of 20psi running safely on fiber gaskets and stock head bolts. You should be a-ok with stock stuff no problem. I wouldn't waste the money.
The oil leak is most certainly not a critical spot, however it would be wise to make sure it is not leaking towards the trans at all. If the oil gets down in between the block and bell housing and gets on the clutch disk it will wreck it in short order. Had one fail from this same issue in 3 weeks. I had a heavy leak though. If you just make sure it drains away from there, you will be alright to fix that one at your convenience.
There are MANY great threads on how to do your own timing, so n oworries. Its literally impossible to screw up with these instructions. Google this; Vince Waldon How-to set your injection pump timing.
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I have for sure heard of 20psi running safely on fiber gaskets and stock head bolts. You should be a-ok with stock stuff no problem. I wouldn't waste the money.
The oil leak is most certainly not a critical spot, however it would be wise to make sure it is not leaking towards the trans at all. If the oil gets down in between the block and bell housing and gets on the clutch disk it will wreck it in short order. Had one fail from this same issue in 3 weeks. I had a heavy leak though. If you just make sure it drains away from there, you will be alright to fix that one at your convenience.
There are MANY great threads on how to do your own timing, so n oworries. Its literally impossible to screw up with these instructions. Google this; Vince Waldon How-to set your injection pump timing.
been running 20+psi on a stock gasket and bolts for YEARS now..
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I have for sure heard of 20psi running safely on fiber gaskets and stock head bolts. You should be a-ok with stock stuff no problem. I wouldn't waste the money.
The oil leak is most certainly not a critical spot, however it would be wise to make sure it is not leaking towards the trans at all. If the oil gets down in between the block and bell housing and gets on the clutch disk it will wreck it in short order. Had one fail from this same issue in 3 weeks. I had a heavy leak though. If you just make sure it drains away from there, you will be alright to fix that one at your convenience.
There are MANY great threads on how to do your own timing, so n oworries. Its literally impossible to screw up with these instructions. Google this; Vince Waldon How-to set your injection pump timing.
Yes excellent! I actually had that link bookmarked for the job! I'm definitely going to do the timing belt and just get it out of the way. And then i'll worry about the headgasket when I have reason to :)
I have for sure heard of 20psi running safely on fiber gaskets and stock head bolts. You should be a-ok with stock stuff no problem. I wouldn't waste the money.
The oil leak is most certainly not a critical spot, however it would be wise to make sure it is not leaking towards the trans at all. If the oil gets down in between the block and bell housing and gets on the clutch disk it will wreck it in short order. Had one fail from this same issue in 3 weeks. I had a heavy leak though. If you just make sure it drains away from there, you will be alright to fix that one at your convenience.
There are MANY great threads on how to do your own timing, so n oworries. Its literally impossible to screw up with these instructions. Google this; Vince Waldon How-to set your injection pump timing.
been running 20+psi on a stock gasket and bolts for YEARS now..
Okay so i should be good on that too. Didn't you have a vnt on your car for awhile? How high will it boost with the vanes left open? Do I need to grab a boost gauge before the install? And does anyone have a recommendation on boost gauges (since everyone loves the micro-1000 aircraftspruce egt probe i thought i'd ask.)
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I bought the ebay setup for 30 bucks, I will weigh in on it when I get it and put it in
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Okay so I have another problem :
I seem to be boiling my coolant. I think I have too much water and not enough antifreeze but I still don't see why it would be getting that hot. It seems like I'm losing alot of coolant too. It doesn't leak but when I drive it boils out of the reservoir pretty quickly.
I'm gonna try pulling the thermostat today and see if that helps... any other ideas? I don't think my fan is working right now either. But I would think that would only effect it at low speeds...
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Do not pull the T stat, it doesn't work that way. It has a bypass that will allow coolant to flow no matter what if you pull it.
Too much water actually cools better than a 50/50 mix of coolant and water. I would guess the rad is plugged or the HG failing...or the obvious not enough in the cooling system/water pump bad.
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So if the thermostat is stuck closed pulling it wont let me check if it keeps cool?
Also how could I check for blockages? Water hose in the radiator? Is there a special method to filling these coolant systems? Maybe I never filled it right after I installed the radiator?
I need to get a Bentley so bad. I can't find one for cheaper than like 50 bucks and this how to keep your rabbit alive book is no help with these things. >:(
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If you look at the water pump housing you will see that there are a bunch of places for the water to flow. If you also look at a T stat you will see that it has a deal on the bottom that routes water differently when open. If you take out the T stat then water flows everywhere and it will overheat...one of mine did anyway.
I would take off the hoses to the rad and run water in the top one. Also wouldn't hurt to look inside of it and see if it looks like something would flow through it.
When running is there a stream of water going into your coolant bottle? If not it could be the water pump.
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Okay well that makes a lot more sense.
I ran the hose through he radiator and it flowed well through to the other side. No luck.
It isn't a steam of water its like little squirts every once in awhile. Could it be I didn't get the vbelt tight enough? It spins the pulleys but there is some slack...its not crazy tight.
If a picture says a thousand words and a video shows a thousand pictures... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNls5uXsMJI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
That's a video of what's happening :)
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I would say your head gasket is done, or there isn't enough water. How long was it running before that? It was boiling. Also the oil light was on...normal for you?
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Yeah that's what I thought. It doesn't start boiling till it has heated up. So I don't think the headgasket is blown enough to pressurized the coolant system.
It had been running about 5 minutes and then I took it for a quick drive about a 1/4 mile up the road and back. To see if it would start acting up haha.
The oil light is on with a buzzer which means high pressure sensor but it only does it after the car is warmed up and goes off as the rpms rise. So unless somehow I'm getting crazy high oil pressure at idle.. I think its a faulty sensor. I just can't find the right pressure sensor to replace it...
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Man that bubbling from the bottom of the overflow sure looks like a blown head gasket to me. Like someone had an air hose on it.
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Yeah I think I'm in for a headgasket job this weekend. Is it possible for me to drive the car to work for the week? Or is that too risky? I think it'll take at least a couple days to get one.
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How far? These things heat up quick and yours is puking water all over the place. Can you pack 30 gallons of water and keep adding it every block? I would park it and get parts. Time to car pool or bike to work. The more it does this the potential of head warp goes up. If it isn't already there.
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:'( well. What's the beat brand or place to order a headgasket from?
How do I tell which one? Or just order a 3?
Will I need to have a machine shop check the head or can I do that myself? How long does a HG job take? Anything else to do while I'm at it beside the timing belt :-\
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Looks like you are running 100% water there.. If so, no wonder it is boiling over..! lol
Why do you not run any coolant my friend??
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Well I had coolant but then i lost it when it all boiled out lol. No but after i lost my accessory belt it boiled a lot out. So I replaced it with water. Then it started boiling out all the time and I put coolant in it at first but that gets expensive when you are trying to figure out where it keeps going.
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:'( well. What's the beat brand or place to order a headgasket from?
I picked my last one up here along with the other gasket kit for the valve cover and such. But you may not need all those parts. http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=zj0b0u55kwhz35mqdgbc1bn2&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1285084@RABBIT%20LS%20DELUXE&year=1981&cid=20@Engine%20Parts,%20Seals%20%26%20Gaskets&gid=5412@Cylinder%20Head%20Gasket
How do I tell which one? Or just order a 3?
Look at the description on the site. You need to know the year and the thickness. Thickness is determined by how much the pistons rise above the block. That procedure has been described here someplace.
Will I need to have a machine shop check the head or can I do that myself? How long does a HG job take? Anything else to do while I'm at it beside the timing belt :-\
If you have all the parts in place and nothing fouls up on you then a days job. Some do it half of that but I would plan a full weekend just in case you want to clean parts that are coming off or do additional work on things like valve guides or seals. Kind of depends on what you might run into once you get the head off. Cleaning it up right, measuring for warpage and such will take a new person more time than those who have been there often. Like CRSMP5 or R.O.R.
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Okay well i went ahead and ordered all three thickness gaskets... and i'll send two back once i get the head off and i can measure the thickness. I'll be doing the job this weekend i guess. Hopefully all goes well.
I've got the following parts:
3 Headgaskets with 1 2 and 3 notches
valve cover gasket
10 new head bolts
new timing belt
new exhaust manifold gaskets
new intake manifold gasket
I'm going to pick up the new oil and oil filter locally, and the same for new coolant and the 12mm triple-sqaure.
Anything I'm missing? I'm going to use the stanley hinge + 10mm deepwell method for locking the timing. Do i need to buy a dial gauge or adapter or anything? I have a harbor freight right down the road if i need any of that. I was hoping i might be able to rent it from autozone/advance auto or something.
Anybody want to play with a headgasket this weekend? ;D
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did you get a new timing belt tensioner? and you will need the timing tool, not just the dial indicator (althoug I have wondered if a magnetic base stuck to the pump would work)
but you actually need the threaded adapter that holds the indicator to the pump
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Nope I didn't think I needed one. Ill try to pick one up...
Do you have a link for that adapter? I'm not sure I know quite where that plays in.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Audi-Diesel-Bosch-VE-Fuel-Injection-Pump-Timing-Tool-/260997223416?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item3cc4a593f8&vxp=mtr#ht_2274wt_1396
this actually holds the dial indicator
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Awesome that's great.
On another note!! I found some more things that could be causing problems!
One : no thermostat...
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4453/img20120426090051.jpg)
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2941/img20120426085742.jpg)
Two : this dohickey over by the firewall is shut no matter what. ..
(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/533/img20120426090006.jpg)
Wouldn't that cause coolant not to be able to leave the head? It appears to be going to the heater core... but i don't understand how coolant leaviing the head could get around it...
and I couldn't put my new thermostat in because i broke off thebolts to the thermostat housing >:(
I wasn't even twisting very hard... in fact i thought i had justloosened them up... :(
Anyway i think someone said earlier with no thermostat the car would overheat... well i have no thermostat and my car is overheating so it's worth a shot before i put the new headgasket on...
I already ordered the parts though so if it needs to be done great and if not i'll just keep the parts till it does need to be done :)
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Awesome that's great.
On another note!! I found some more things that could be causing problems!
One : no thermostat...
Two : this dohickey over by the firewall is shut no matter what. ..
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If you don't have a t stat in it, then that is the entire boilover problem. It will probably be fine until you drive it a mile or more, then boil. Put a T stat in and get all the air out.
What is by the firewall?
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Sorry I forgot the pictures.
Hurray! I really hope that's it.
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Thermostat is down by the water pump is it not? You take the lower radiator hose off to get at it. The top flange is just that a flange, backwards from most engines in America.
The dohicky at the firewall is the temp selector on the dash. Slide it hot it goes one way, cold it goes the other. If it is frozen in place it could be open and allowing water to route through the core but I doubt it.
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Thermostat is down by the water pump is it not? You take the lower radiator hose off to get at it. The top flange is just that a flange, backwards from most engines in America.
The dohicky at the firewall is the temp selector on the dash. Slide it hot it goes one way, cold it goes the other. If it is frozen in place it could be open and allowing water to route through the core but I doubt it.
??? :o :(
Really? I thought for sure that was it.... I cancelled my order for the headgaskets and bolts :(
Does anyone have any pictures of the thermostat location?
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buy a bentley manual for your car.
Lay on your back on the ground. Slide under the bumper on the belt side of the engine. Look up and you will see the water pump. On the very bottom of it it will have a housing with two 6mm bolts *10mm heads* Inside that housing is the T stat. You don't have to even remove the hose to change it...if it is non power steering. Power steering is a different ball game.
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Thermostat is down by the water pump is it not? You take the lower radiator hose off to get at it. The top flange is just that a flange, backwards from most engines in America.
The dohicky at the firewall is the temp selector on the dash. Slide it hot it goes one way, cold it goes the other. If it is frozen in place it could be open and allowing water to route through the core but I doubt it.
??? :o :(
Really? I thought for sure that was it.... I cancelled my order for the headgaskets and bolts :(
Does anyone have any pictures of the thermostat location?
Yikes. I second the Bentley. Very simple things, and shearing bolts.. You got some reading to do my friend. Now I am not picking on you for not knowing, but it would be wise to do some learning before you proceed. This is good advice I'd follow :).
The thermostat is located on the engine side of the bottom rad hose. What do you mean you do not understand how the valve by the firewall works? It is a valve, it determines whether any hot coolant enters the heater core or not. It is not the only path for coolant however. Coolant flows from the water pump (bottom of the engine) up through the block and then the head. Where it then comes out piping hot through the side of the head and the front of the head (where you torqued the heads off those bolts lol). From there it either goes to the heater core out the side of the head through that valve in one of your pictures, or out the front of the head and through the radiator, but only if the thermostat has opened. If the thermostat is closed then it travels down the by-pass hose that hugs the block behind the fuel pump, through the water pump to start its journey again. The hot coolant going down the by-pass is what heats the thermostat up allowing it open up, and allow coolant to go through the radiator while blocking off the by-pass route. The route of least resistance is through the by-pass, so you can see why it will overheat without a thermostat. The coolant will never travel through the radiator without a thermostat.
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Yikes. I second the Bentley. Very simple things, and shearing bolts.. You got some reading to do my friend. Now I am not picking on you for not knowing, but it would be wise to do some learning before you proceed. This is good advice I'd follow Smiley.
Yeah I have been looking for one. The cheapest I could find was about $50. So with the car potentially ruined I didn't want to drop the cash on it only to find out my block/head is toast. But I have been searching for one. I'm definitely not the most skilled mechanic out there but I wasn't doing anything outrageous to sheer these bolts. I was using a small ratchet (No breaker bar or anything) and i just started turning the bolts (no yanking/twisting/hammering/jerking) they seemed like they were coming out fine until i pulled out half a bolt. In fact I didn't even notice they were snapped until after I went to the second one because the first one turned so smoothly i thought i should loosen the other side before removing the bolts all the way.
Anyway that's beside the point. I'm definitely not an incredibly skilled mechanic and I understand that. I came here to learn and ask questions to try and better myself and repair my car. I really appreciate all the help you guys have been giving me towards that goal but I certainly apologize for this thread since I've been kind of in a rush to get things done and probably should've done some more research.
What do you mean you do not understand how the valve by the firewall works? It is a valve, it determines whether any hot coolant enters the heater core or not.
I understand how it works. I was stating that it doesn't work. And I was asking if it being shut permanently (Nothing i move on the inside heater controls will change it's position.) would cause any sort of lack of coolant flow. I thought water was flowing in the front of the head and through the block and out the side which is what was confusing me. But thanks for the explanation of the coolant path. That definitely clears things up! (I searched for a schematic/picture of the coolant system for our car but I couldn't find anything... wish i had that bentley.)
Anyway I'll be replacing the headgasket this weekend with my dad (Alot more experience than me). If the car still runs after that (Miracle) I'll post up and let you know how things went. :-\
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if the bently is in good shape buy it! if your car is toast, sell me the bently? I need one but not yet, Might buy some parts off you or the car too, lol
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If you pm me your email I can help you with your bentley situation for practically free.
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Ahem... dp
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if the bently is in good shape buy it! if your car is toast, sell me the bently? I need one but not yet, Might buy some parts off you or the car too, lol
Haha. Well there is an ebay seller selling new ones for that price plus shipping or you can order them brand new from Bentley for like 70. And hopefully the car isn't toast. I've put a ton of money and time putting this thing back together
If you pm me your email I can help you with your bentley situation for practically free.
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Okay sweet. Pmd
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I can't remember those Bentley manuals being that high in price. Something more on the order of this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Volkswagen-Golf-Jetta-Service-Manual/dp/0837616379/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335556130&sr=1-10
And doesn't AZAutohaus have a good price on them?
For the price of a tank of diesel this IS the best investment you should make in your car. Before you buy part one. How else besides this wonderful forum will you know how to do the repair?
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He now has a Bentley. ;)
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If the injection pump is locked the whole time do I have to reset the timing in order to run the engine? Or will it be close enough to run until I can get my adapter?
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It should run assuming it is in the same place (TDC) as you left it but I think you should check it anyway. Tiny changes do make a difference. On my car 0.98 mm was too smokey, 1.05 was too clattery and 1.02 mm is just right. The timing gauge is a nice thing to have if you're going to be fooling around with diesels in the future.
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Okay well I finished up the headgasket job. I spun the engine over by hand a couple times and there wasn't any interference. But I think the pump timing got messed up somehow... I'm confused because I marked the timing belt teeth and transferred the marks and counted teeth and everything. So it should. Be at least close right?
This is what it does...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCMrejOVv08&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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so if cold start allows it to run, but pushing it in kills it, Im guessing he needs more advance?
this all assuming he used a good camshaft lock to set valve timing
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I used a 3" hinge. And I spent a good while trying different hinges and shims till it was perfect.
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Is the pump stock as an 84 pump? If it is then it should not have an idle bump on the cold start lever.
Was the video your first start after the head gasket? Or did you prime and run it prior to the video?
It almost seems like you have a bit of air in the fuel (whiteish grey smoke), and have the timing WAY retarded.
Theoretically, the mark and pray method if carried out perfectly, should bring the timing to within exactly what it was. The pump not being loosened, and the belt being put back on exactly where it was before (albeit not the best method) the timing should be perfect. Assuming it was spot on to begin with.
I would invest in a timing gauge. The hinge and socket for the pump will work just fine, no need to buy a whole kit. It is not that any engine damage will occur from doing it the way you have done it (as long as it is done correctly), but clearly something is still way off. Timing is everything with these as it controls when the fuel is being injected in to the cylinder.
The number itself doesn't mean so much, so in all reality what you could do is just advance the timing a bump. You can do this by loosening the 4 13mm bolts/nuts holding your pump to the bracket, and while running, turn the top of the pump towards the engine. If it clears up any, then it was timing related. After you get it to a spot where it is running alright, shut it down and tighten up the bolts. Then loosen all 8 injector line nuts (17mm) and re-seat them, to relieve the stress of being readjusted.
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I'm confused because I marked the timing belt teeth and transferred the marks and counted teeth and everything. So it should. Be at least close right?
Well now I am confused. What is this with marking belt teeth and transferring marks and all of that? The Bentley says nothing of the sort. You set the pin in the IP. You set the door hinge in the back of the cam across the top of the head and you loosen the tension bolt. That generally is all done after you have the TDC mark on the flywheel aligned with the pointer. Once the belt is loose you slide it off and at this point I generally release the tension on the bolt on the front of the cam so the sprocket can spin freely. Several means to get that done without relying on the door hinge in the back of the cam to do the work. Now when it comes back to putting a belt back on what is harder than this?
Snug it up on the bottom end by pulling up on the belt and making sure it is set in the teeth in the lower crank. Pass it next to the tension pulley, slide it around the IP bring it up over the top of the cam pulley. It is now back on. But not tight, so you make sure the cam pulley is slightly loose, put some tension on the tensioner and snug the 13 mm bolt. Up top you check for the twist between the two top pulleys and either leave it of adjust it. Again with the tensioner, careful how you move it as it may change the TDC look after the bolt is tight on the tensioner. If good then grab the cam and tighten up the front bolt there.
Underneath you give the engine a couple of roll overs to make sure all is good. Oh, did you pull the pin and door hinge out? If no jamming of piston to valves occurs on to the start. It should go and you then do the timing. I measure before so I know what I had and I know how much to twist the pump towards or away from the engine based on that reading.
What did you think the counting teeth would do for your timing set? That is a first for me to see that. So you must have some idea going there that I can't connect with.
Later DAS
I am headed to Portland on Weds morning. Do I need to drop off the timing gauge? It would be early, say 7 ish, AM.
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What did you think the counting teeth would do for your timing set? That is a first for me to see that. So you must have some idea going there that I can't connect with.
It is the "Mark-and-Pray" method.. you mark it and pray you get it back on properly. By not undoing the pump bolts, it should theoretically save the timing. As the cam and crank are always TDC, the pump is relative to the pump bracket.
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Is the pump stock as an 84 pump? If it is then it should not have an idle bump on the cold start lever.
As Far as i know the pump is the stock pump. Once again this car is still very new to me. I don't know what the cold start lever was doing but i do know that it didn't want to run without it. And even with it. VERY ROUGH.
Was the video your first start after the head gasket? Or did you prime and run it prior to the video?
That was not the first start after the headgasket. I'd say that was probably the second or third attempt. Maybe 10-15 seconds each.
Theoretically, the mark and pray method if carried out perfectley, should bring the timing to within exactly what it was. The pump not being loosened, and the belt being put back on exactly where it was before (albeit not the best method) the timing should be perfect. Assuming it was spot on to begin with.
I would invest in a timing gauge. The hinge and socket for the pump will work just fine, no need to buy a whole kit. It is not that any engine damage will occur from doing it the way you have done it (as long as it is done correctly), but clearly something is still way off. Timing is everything with these as it controls when the fuel is being injected in to the cylinder.
Yes something is definitely way off. The timing gauge adapter I ordered last week and still hasn't got here yet. But i needed to get the headgasket done this weekend. So i thought it would be at least close enough to run. I'm just worried that i screwed up somewhere else. Could it really be this far off timing on the injection pump? No possibility i've screwed up the valve timing or misplaced the timing belt?
If it is the injection pump, how did it get moved THAT far off time?
The number itself doesn't mean so much, so in all reality what you could do is just advance the timing a bump. You can do this by loosening the 4 13mm bolts/nuts holding your pump to the bracket, and while running, turn the top of the pump towards the engine. If it clears up any, then it was timing related. After you get it to a spot where it is running alright, shut it down and tighten up the bolts. Then loosen all 8 injector line nuts (17mm) and re-seat them, to relieve the stress of being readjusted.
I tried loosening those bolts up and trying to move the pump a little bit. But i couldn't get it to budge... how much force do you have to apply to shift the timing on this thing? The bolts were practically ready to fall off.
I am headed to Portland on Weds morning. Do I need to drop off the timing gauge? It would be early, say 7 ish, AM.
Not sure if this is to me or someone else? But uhm. I live near washington dc... so i'm not sure if portland is exactly halfway.
And I locked the timing of the camshaft and injection pump and adjusted the belt as described in the bentley manual. I just added some marks on the pulleys/belts to make sure i wasn't off a tooth when reinstalling the belt. That's all. But whatever i did i apparently screwed something up ::)
I mean i spun the engine over by hand and no valves banging around. And the engine runs a little bit without terrifying grinding noises dso that's good right? And on the bright side my headgasket doesn't leak anymore and i don't have to worry about overheating if i can't get it to run ;D 8) haha.
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My bad I thought I was talking with Billybobf getting you a dial gauge will be more difficult. There are four bolts that hold the IP pump in place, three 13 mm from the back side one through the IP pulley. The one down low is most often overlooked. Crack the IP nuts a bit and the pump should rotate easy then. Move pump towards engine, retighten IP nuts on lines and one bolt up front to secure pump. Then restart. Once running you can loosen IP bolt and move pump and secure when it gets right. Then tighten all the rest of the IP bolts but loosen all the nuts to relieve tension on them. Then retighten.
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ok, so I have to ask, is IP timing best set by ear after getting it running right?
it seems to me worn parts and other issues would cause mechanical timing measurements to vary widely compared to actual injection points
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Okay I think I only loosened 3 so that would make sense...
Found it!
Okay so I advanced timing a bit and that helped alot! The engine runs smoothly now with the cold start lever pulled out and smoothly with it pushed in after warming up. I think it could use a touch more advance but I need another person to help with that.
I took it for a short drive and the car drives normally. No signs of overheating at all. all in all I think she will be good to go after I get it timed a little better.
However it seems to me that the timing belt is riding a little too close to the engine side and it might be rubbing a bit. (http://[url=http://postimage.org/image/egx8abisn/][img]http://s15.postimage.org/egx8abisn/IMG_20120501_092112.jpg)[/url][/IMG]
If I move it back over after it runs it pulls back to the sam position... any ideas how to get it to line up better?
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My bad I thought I was talking with Billybobf getting you a dial gauge will be more difficult. There are four bolts that hold the IP pump in place, three 13 mm from the back side one through the IP pulley. The one down low is most often overlooked. Crack the IP nuts a bit and the pump should rotate easy then. Move pump towards engine, retighten IP nuts on lines and one bolt up front to secure pump. Then restart. Once running you can loosen IP bolt and move pump and secure when it gets right. Then tighten all the rest of the IP bolts but loosen all the nuts to relieve tension on them. Then retighten.
when he says NUTS, he is talking about the flare nut on the end of the injector lines..
dont advance/retard timing without loosening the 4 flare nuts holding the lines to the pump. if you dont relieve tension off the lines every adjustment you make, eventually you will be needing new high pressure lines because your old ones cracked..
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If the belt is not tracking straight, check the hidden bolt and conical nut that hides beneath the injection pump opposite the belt end. If missing or loose, can cause this.
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The fourth one that you loosen to adjust timing? Its there... and tightened down..
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If the belt is not tracking straight, check the hidden bolt and conical nut that hides beneath the injection pump opposite the belt end. If missing or loose, can cause this.
Someone also said on here that it is possible that the injection pump bracket may be out of kilter slightly. You may be able to loosen and tweak the front half of it, causing the end with the fourth bolt to raise or lower. That will straighten the belt.
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ok, so I have to ask, is IP timing best set by ear after getting it running right?
it seems to me worn parts and other issues would cause mechanical timing measurements to vary widely compared to actual injection points
It's best to use a pump that is not wore out.
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Billybob what you ask is the source of constant debate here. Trying not to take sides on this is like trying to please your mother-in-law after you insulted her cooking.
Here is logic for thought. The pump is designed with certain tolerances and as it ages or is abused by lack of proper filtering fuel it starts to wear. Measuring for specific timing can only compensate for some of that wear as not all the mechanical workings of the advance mechanism are in play when the engine is off for the measurement. Once it is started some of the other dynamic functions come into play. The pressure regulation, the fuel thickness, the vacuum on the inlet line and filter, the advance mechanism on that internal cam ring to name most of them. So in my mind it does make sense to "listen to what the engine says" This was the crust of the biscuit for a recently passed on member on another forum, Hagar. He called it Hillbilly tuning bless him. His procedures tried to take in account the "wear factor" So for him what you ask was a resounding yes.
Now others say if it isn't running correctly at the specified measurement then you are in need of a rebuild to make it behave itself. Well yes to that as well but what about the gray area where you are between new and toasted IP functionality. For most of us this might be the miles/km at the 200-300 mile mark. Not bad enough to rebuild but not quite right either.
So what was the question again?
Oh, setting it by ear after measuring the timing.
I am inclined to say tweak it man, If it runs better with that little bit extra bump forward or aft then that is where it runs better. Is that not what we all strive to achieve? I know I do. Hence I am forever "playing with that stoopid car" as the neighbor says. He actually said he thought I was sick because he hasn't seen me with the hood up in the last three weekends. Fooled him. Just working up another project.
Should have seen his reaction to the WVO setup, so funny.
The problem to getting the timing to work well is being able to get it to sound good at idle and have that carry to when the IP is cranking around at 2500. The dynamics between the two points seems about as bad as the gray area between full rebuild and new pump.
Just my 45 cents. DAS