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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: rs899 on April 16, 2012, 04:19:36 am
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The best camplate I can muster has a few pits , none bigger than half the diameter of a pencil eraser, and none occupying more than 20% of the contact area for any given cam roller at any contact point.
maybe 6 or 8 pits- 2 or 3% of the total surface area of the cam plate.
Is it junk?
Prothe has one for $29...
which one would you use...?
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I would call giles and see if he would sell you a used one. If you use your camplate I would have the rollers cryo treated.
If prothe has one for 29.00 I would buy a good used bicycle before I would go that route.
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Gahhhh, that sucks man. Just got done swapping out a bad pump myself about a week ago. I saw this and I went out to crack open a different, 'sticky' pump I have, (kiiiinda hoping that just the head / plunger were bad ::)) with the intent that if the camplate was good, I would send it to you, but alas, it is pitted as well.
Looks like it's now a good candidate for a high-revving science experiment...., or perhaps an 11mm plunger upgrade... ;D
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I talked to a local Bosch dealer and he said Bosch has a service bulletin that says if the pits are not on the peaks it may pass. Don't know w/o reading it myself if mine fits the tolerance, but at least there is a tolerance.
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Was it running before you tore it down??
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At some point, but not by me. Bought it as broken on ebay. Looks like someone was running WVO with it. It was really gummed up. The vanes on the lift pump were all stuck. The plunger was stuck. Still, looked OK after a good cleaning, except for a few pits on the camplate.
What to do , what to do?...I think even a used part will exceed the cost of another core pump....maybe this one is good enough to use. Gamble on a Prothe part?
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Run the camplate and call it a day? If it dosnt run, what have you lost besides time?
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At some point, but not by me. Bought it as broken on ebay. Looks like someone was running WVO with it. It was really gummed up. The vanes on the lift pump were all stuck. The plunger was stuck. Still, looked OK after a good cleaning, except for a few pits on the camplate.
What to do , what to do?...I think even a used part will exceed the cost of another core pump....maybe this one is good enough to use. Gamble on a Prothe part?
Giles would probably give you a scrap piece that would hold up better than the 29.00 unit. The one you have I would trust more than the 29.00 unit. I would at least take the time and cost of sending an email to Giles and ask him. Most of prothes pumps I would bet have his parts in them...most of his pumps you can't even get to run. I have a cam plate from my old super pump that had wear from bad rollers that I would run before buying one from Prothe. This is something that make the engine go. It could wear/come apart and send metal through the pump head, injectors, precup, and piston. Even if Giles was over 100.00 would the 71 dollars be worth it to you? Not me.
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Ok, you nagged me into sending Giles an email. I'm not completely buying your doom and gloom scenario- of course if that cam breaks up it will wreck the pump and injectors, but the odds of anything getting past the nozzles is slim.
As much as I distrust Chinese stuff, at some point they have to produce something that works. I mean, they do have diesel trucks that work, so they are capable. Whether or not this piece works, or works well enough, long enough, is entirely another question, otherwise they would all be riding bikes.
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From what I gather most Chinese are riding bikes. But if even 2/3 ride bikes that means they still drive more cars than americans do.
I had the only prothe pump that actually ran that I have ever heard of online or in person. It ran, but it smoked white so bad and had 0 power. Made all kinds of noises that were not pleasant either. Giles may say 50. or may not, but I would take that risk.
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Well to say all Chinese made stuff is junk is pretty close minded.. They are given the specifications on the cam plates (or what have you) and have to be more than capable of machining said pieces.
My opinion on why Prothes pumps come out as junk is not because of materials used, but because of internal pump pressures. He as well as Giles do not use brand new pump bodies, therefore they have wear in the pumps that will affect internal pressure. And what I am assuming is he mixes and matches the internal fuel pumps, plungers, advance pistons around.. and in the end he has a low pressure pump that cannot sustain proper advance to maintain proper combustion. Giles tests every pump with his calibration tool right? I doubt Peter Rothenbacher does...
Personally? I would run the cam plate, if the pits are not on the points of the ramps it will not affect anything. Honestly though a picture is worth more than 1000 words.
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^^ That's what Giles said. I took some and will send them to him tomorrow and try to post it here with his opinion.
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Jeremy, Jeremy...I had to look real hard and I still didn't find anywhere I or rs899 said all chinese stuff was junk. I didn't even say all prothe stuff was junk. I did imply that his pump stuff was and I think I will come out and say it now for posterity "IMHO, all prothe injection pump stuff isn't fit to run and is junk."
Along the lines of chinese imports being ok. I am sure some are. If given the option and money though, I will take the same part american, european, or canadian made every time I can. I don't mind tinkering on my car, but I hate being married to the garage, and when I have bought inferior parts that is what seems to happen to me. Just a personal preference, some may like the constant scheduling of what maintenance/fix to do, I don't and avoid it if possible.
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I did buy a couple of camplates from prothe. One with a tdi profile and one with the aaz profile. I used the tdi one and it now has over 40,000 km on it. The pump was apart at around 10,000 km and it still looked new. I'm not endorsing cheap parts but it might be a cheap alternative to a badly pitted bosch camplate.
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The best camplate I can muster has a few pits , none bigger than half the diameter of a pencil eraser, and none occupying more than 20% of the contact area for any given cam roller at any contact point.
maybe 6 or 8 pits- 2 or 3% of the total surface area of the cam plate.
Is it junk?
Prothe has one for $29...
which one would you use...?
ill sell you a PERFECT used bosch cam plate for $200 + shipping.. 8)
LMFAO... kidding.. but i do have a few good condition cam plates + matched rollers laying around.. ;)
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http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss212/rs899/DSCF6275.jpg
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss212/rs899/DSCF6274.jpg
Here is what I have. What do you think? Kind of hard to see in the pix, but the peaks are at 12, 3 6 and 9 o'clock.
As far as Prothe's stuff, I caved in and bought a set of injector lines to try to fix the leaks I have around the delivery valves (didn't help- must be the valves) for $14. They seem to be fine - considering. They are not Bosch quality and don't fit as well. But- they aren't likely to get me walking as I have the old set in the car for a 10 minute swap.
My experience with Chinese stuff is that they don't have the metallurgy quite up to US or European standards. I go to great lengths to avoid their bearings, ball joints and front end parts. This camplate is kind of in that category, except it isn't a safety issue. However, it is noted that at least one of us has tried one and it seems to be OK based on a short term test.
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That camplate looks fine as far as I'm concerned. It's not nearly as bad as I had thought it would be. The highest stress point is on the up ramp and they look pretty clean. I say run it.
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Giles has weighed in.
Any more opinions before I publish his view ( I don't want to sway the vote)?
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No, no post it NAUW! ;D
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Suspense is killing you, eh? or WGAS
OK-
yes this will work no problem
Giles
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Suspense is killing you, eh? or WGAS
OK-
yes this will work no problem
Giles
Definitely not because I don't give a hoot---if Giles has something to say, I wanna hear it :)
So thank you for sharing what he told you; it gives me hope that mine won't entirely blow up. It's quite a bit worse, actually, but I'm hoping it'll be good enough to test some theories.
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cam plate looks more like its GLAZED in places, rather than pitted..
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...just an optical illusion, I guess.
Not sure how much worse one can be and still pass muster. I have another that is about 25% pits that must be garbage.
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All pits look like they are in the low part of the cam to me. I wouldn't think it to be a problem.
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I was gonna say, I would run that without a second guess